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DX:HR - Worth a replay?

circ

Arcane
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
11,470
Location
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
I said gall. WHACHOO GONNA DOO?

Anyway, I think I got a pretty good impression of the playstyles just fine not having finished it.
 

Kaol

Educated
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
253
It is a bad game though, when compared with DX1.

Its on par with Invisible War, good enough for a play through but nothing more.

DX was truly a fantastic game. The plot was deep and intelligent as was the level design and gameplay.

DX:HR is none of those things. It's very much a game where the more you play the more you realise how artificial and contrived the game is.

DX was even more enjoyable on my second and third playthroughs as it was on my first. DX:HR is very much the opposite, an illusion which wears thin about halfway through the first playthrough.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Gross exaggeration to call the plot in DX 'deep and intelligent' -- it was rife with cliches and conspiracy theory jargon. You probably think the plot in Bioshock was 'deep and intelligent,' too. And, again, IW was utter shit. To claim HR is no better displays either willful ignorance or blatant trolling.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,079
I have acknowledge that, you tard. Those phrases don't need to be any clearer. Your cumdrenched hyperbole is what I'm addressing. Stop being so proud of your attempted edginess. DX:HR is a good game and better than the second game in the series. Good enough even, to hope for better next time (if indeed these are not Bethesdian-styled developers unwilling to learn from their mistakes).

Fair enough, except that is not edginess, is just disappointment. And it seems we are on different pages: the original point of the discussion was that the game has no challenge what-so-ever on the stealth path. Which you did not even bother to address, except for stupid ad hominems.

1) It is a good, well-designed game.
2) It is incline from Invisible War.
3) In terms of atmosphere (not talking piss or colors here) it's close to the original. It felt like "Deus Ex" to me.
4) It's not as free and open as DE1 and sometimes you feel railroaded into a path but it's still far from typical linear ME-styled "popamole".
5) The dialogue system is nifty and creative.
6) The metro areas look fantastic.
7) Forcing you to pay attention to emails, notes and detail is incline (there was a pretty lulzy moment in the main DX:HR thread when a member freely admitted they hadn't and made a choice that eventually angered them).
8) Fuck you.

I'm a retard, but please bare with me: WHERE IS THE LINK BETWEEN THESE POINTS AND THE STEALTH GAMEPLAY? Let me guess. There is none.

Because I'm currently playing as a tough guy ramboid hacker ....
Good for you. The argument was about the stealth path.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
Gross exaggeration to call the plot in DX 'deep and intelligent' -- it was rife with cliches and conspiracy theory jargon. You probably think the plot in Bioshock was 'deep and intelligent,' too. And, again, IW was utter shit. To claim HR is no better displays either willful ignorance or blatant trolling.
To be fair, Deus Ex was thematically deep, if not deep in terms of plot. Its conspiracy-laden story was an excellent vehicle for discussing political and social questions, such as the ideal manner of governance and social organization, and the inclusion of cyberpunk staples like AI also led to interesting ideas about consciousness, religion, and so on all coming up as well. When people talk about Deus Ex being "intelligent" it's usually for that stuff, not because the story itself is anything special.

By comparison, Human Revolution is simplistic and basically stuck on a single note. The "what does it mean to be human?" question is interesting but it's only explored in fairly superficial means and boiled down to "augmentations are good because they let me walk again/augmentations are bad because they're unnatural and turn you into a zombie!" It could have been so much more interesting, and could have got at questions like at what point a person stops being who they are because of all the implants they have, the nature of the soul, the relative value of human life in a world which arguably is no longer even human, etc. Deus Ex was a game that openly broke out into philosophical and political discussion; Human Revolution only ever alludes to its more complicated themes.
 

Kaol

Educated
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
253
Gross exaggeration to call the plot in DX 'deep and intelligent' -- it was rife with cliches and conspiracy theory jargon. You probably think the plot in Bioshock was 'deep and intelligent,' too. And, again, IW was utter shit. To claim HR is no better displays either willful ignorance or blatant trolling.
To be fair, Deus Ex was thematically deep, if not deep in terms of plot. Its conspiracy-laden story was an excellent vehicle for discussing political and social questions, such as the ideal manner of governance and social organization, and the inclusion of cyberpunk staples like AI also led to interesting ideas about consciousness, religion, and so on all coming up as well. When people talk about Deus Ex being "intelligent" it's usually for that stuff, not because the story itself is anything special.

By comparison, Human Revolution is simplistic and basically stuck on a single note. The "what does it mean to be human?" question is interesting but it's only explored in fairly superficial means and boiled down to "augmentations are good because they let me walk again/augmentations are bad because they're unnatural and turn you into a zombie!" It could have been so much more interesting, and could have got at questions like at what point a person stops being who they are because of all the implants they have, the nature of the soul, the relative value of human life in a world which arguably is no longer even human, etc. Deus Ex was a game that openly broke out into philosophical and political discussion; Human Revolution only ever alludes to its more complicated themes.

A good post that i can agree with.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,785
Randomized paths are forcing the player to be pro-active instead of enjoying the safety of his hiding place. That is challenging.
So is playing with one arm tied behind your back. Someone could make a stealth game where NPCs go wherever they please, but playtesting will quickly show it won't be enjoyable to complete such a thing (oh hey I got caught out in the open and died because a NPC decided to turn in my direction at the wrong time yet again, no mastery here, just luck and save/load abuse) and they'll go back to predetermined paths just like everyone else.

Many times, in the exact same position, the NPCs see you without sticky cover, but they don't see you if the sticky cover is active. Also the sticky cover made the NPCs not to see you even when it made perfect sense to see you based on the angles and the positions.
In other words, the NPCs FOV is overwritten by the player sticky cover status. And that's what I call exploitable, because most players will abuse it. But in reality, is more like a simple cheat. The world rules are biased towards the player.
In Thief, the NPCs could see you and hear you. But these actions were totally INDEPENDENT of the player status. The world rules are the same for the player and the NPCs.
Please don't tell me that there is no difference.
Never noticed this behavior, I'll take your word for it. What a shame.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
97,421
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Good for you. The argument was about the stealth path.

DX is not a stealth game, therefore its "stealth path" need not be super hardcore. Could it have been a bit harder? Perhaps. Nevertheless it's not a dealbreaker. The stealth isn't the point of the game and shouldn't be judged in isolation.
 

DraQ

Arcane
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32,828
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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
It is a bad game though, when compared with DX1.

Its on par with Invisible War, good enough for a play through but nothing more.
Nigga, please.

Even if other stuff was equal (and it is not) it has no universal ammo, no completely derpy in-universe excuse for universal ammo, levels larger than a closet, satisfactory gunplay and no guido douchebag for protagonist which already makes it infinity times better (no "AAH! AAH! I'M COOKED!" either).


DX was truly a fantastic game. The plot was deep and intelligent
For a collage of nearly all available conspiracy theories it was skillfully done. If only because it offered a good semblance of consistence.

If you meant backplot and general speculative fiction "what if", then yeah, pretty inteligent, but that's not main plot.

I'm a retard, but please bare with me: WHERE IS THE LINK BETWEEN THESE POINTS AND THE STEALTH GAMEPLAY? Let me guess. There is none.

Because I'm currently playing as a tough guy ramboid hacker ....
Good for you. The argument was about the stealth path.
Your argument hinges on stealth being the only valid playstyle and stealth game sucking as stealth game (DX:HR), as opposed to open approach game sucking as stealth game (DX1).

The problem is that stealth is not the only valid playstyle and game accommodates them all - it has nifty arsenal of often loud, spectacular weapons, typhoon, ability to hack security hubs and make automated defences run amok and slaughter everyone, which is not exactly conductive for stealth, environment traversal augs, improvised weapons (throwing heavy shit), destructible walls, traps (mines) and so on.

Also, regarding popamole, cover mechanics is not essential for either combat or stealth, as a matter of fact it's even less useful for combat, than stealth, because while unforgiving combat doesn't really hinge on enemy not seeing you for a split second, so fitting tight behind cover isn't as important - just remember to not pop out in the same spot if you neglect sticky cover buton. Of course, not using sticky cover makes smart vision all the more desirable upgrade.

Gross exaggeration to call the plot in DX 'deep and intelligent' -- it was rife with cliches and conspiracy theory jargon. You probably think the plot in Bioshock was 'deep and intelligent,' too. And, again, IW was utter shit. To claim HR is no better displays either willful ignorance or blatant trolling.
To be fair, Deus Ex was thematically deep, if not deep in terms of plot. Its conspiracy-laden story was an excellent vehicle for discussing political and social questions, such as the ideal manner of governance and social organization, and the inclusion of cyberpunk staples like AI also led to interesting ideas about consciousness, religion, and so on all coming up as well. When people talk about Deus Ex being "intelligent" it's usually for that stuff, not because the story itself is anything special.

By comparison, Human Revolution is simplistic and basically stuck on a single note. The "what does it mean to be human?" question is interesting but it's only explored in fairly superficial means and boiled down to "augmentations are good because they let me walk again/augmentations are bad because they're unnatural and turn you into a zombie!" It could have been so much more interesting, and could have got at questions like at what point a person stops being who they are because of all the implants they have, the nature of the soul, the relative value of human life in a world which arguably is no longer even human, etc. Deus Ex was a game that openly broke out into philosophical and political discussion; Human Revolution only ever alludes to its more complicated themes.
Well, DX:HR is not really in position to pose a big huge question like "how should humanity govern itself", if only because it's a prequel.

Though, yeah, the problem with HR isn't that it's devoid of deeper issues, but that it neglects to focus on them, opting to focus on often derpy stuff instead.
 

TwinkieGorilla

does a good job.
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Messages
5,480
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath
the original point of the discussion was that the game has no challenge what-so-ever on the stealth path. Which you did not even bother to address, except for stupid ad hominems.

No, the original point was whether or not Dicksmoker is "missing something" and should he try again. Your argument is a meta-point in this thread and not one I originally commented on. I commented on your excessively harsh take on what is for all intents and purposes, a good game. That is all. I do apologize for the ad hominems though. That is below me. I must have lost my head. Retard.

I'm a retard

See, I'm only addressing you as you'd like to be addressed.

but please bare with me: WHERE IS THE LINK BETWEEN THESE POINTS AND THE STEALTH GAMEPLAY? Let me guess. There is none.

You are correct! There is none. Why in the seven hells should there be? I didn't jump on the "stealth" discussion I jumped on the bullshit labeling of "this game is shit" part of the discussion. I can do that, you know. It is allowed, choosing which parts of peoples' posts I'd like to comment on.

The argument was about the stealth path.

The one you appear to have been having inside your head, yes.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,079
Good for you. The argument was about the stealth path.

DX is not a stealth game, therefore its "stealth path" need not be super hardcore. Could it have been a bit harder? Perhaps. Nevertheless it's not a dealbreaker. The stealth isn't the point of the game and shouldn't be judged in isolation.

The game in discussion was DX: HR and not DX.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,079
Randomized paths are forcing the player to be pro-active instead of enjoying the safety of his hiding place. That is challenging.
So is playing with one arm tied behind your back. Someone could make a stealth game where NPCs go wherever they please, but playtesting will quickly show it won't be enjoyable to complete such a thing (oh hey I got caught out in the open and died because a NPC decided to turn in my direction at the wrong time yet again, no mastery here, just luck and save/load abuse) and they'll go back to predetermined paths just like everyone else.

Please tell me when did it happen to you in an *actual* game?

Many times, in the exact same position, the NPCs see you without sticky cover, but they don't see you if the sticky cover is active. Also the sticky cover made the NPCs not to see you even when it made perfect sense to see you based on the angles and the positions.
In other words, the NPCs FOV is overwritten by the player sticky cover status. And that's what I call exploitable, because most players will abuse it. But in reality, is more like a simple cheat. The world rules are biased towards the player.
In Thief, the NPCs could see you and hear you. But these actions were totally INDEPENDENT of the player status. The world rules are the same for the player and the NPCs.
Please don't tell me that there is no difference.
Never noticed this behavior, I'll take your word for it. What a shame.

Trolling, a cunning strategy.
 

curry

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
4,010
Location
Cooking in the lab
Good for you. The argument was about the stealth path.

DX is not a stealth game, therefore its "stealth path" need not be super hardcore. Could it have been a bit harder? Perhaps. Nevertheless it's not a dealbreaker. The stealth isn't the point of the game and shouldn't be judged in isolation.

The game in discussion was DX: HR and not DX.

Thanks for the clarification

Compare this to the first Thief(s), SS2 or DX and it is impossible not to spot the difference in difficulty and environmental design.

Oh yeah. It was you who brought up DX. :smug:
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,079
Good for you. The argument was about the stealth path.

DX is not a stealth game, therefore its "stealth path" need not be super hardcore. Could it have been a bit harder? Perhaps. Nevertheless it's not a dealbreaker. The stealth isn't the point of the game and shouldn't be judged in isolation.

The game in discussion was DX: HR and not DX.

Thanks for the clarification

Compare this to the first Thief(s), SS2 or DX and it is impossible not to spot the difference in difficulty and environmental design.

Oh yeah. It was you who brought up DX. :smug:

And the discussion remained relevant to DX: HR. Try again.
 

TwinkieGorilla

does a good job.
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Joined
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Messages
5,480
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath
Butthurt over DX:HR. Well, that means you are right.

Why would I be butthurt over what I consider to be simply a "good" game? Or, shit. Any game? I'm just calling you out on your bullshit, homeslice.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,421
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Good for you. The argument was about the stealth path.

DX is not a stealth game, therefore its "stealth path" need not be super hardcore. Could it have been a bit harder? Perhaps. Nevertheless it's not a dealbreaker. The stealth isn't the point of the game and shouldn't be judged in isolation.

The game in discussion was DX: HR and not DX.

I was referring to the series, not one specific game.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,079
Your argument hinges on stealth being the only valid playstyle and stealth game sucking as stealth game (DX:HR), as opposed to open approach game sucking as stealth game (DX1).

The problem is that stealth is not the only valid playstyle and game accommodates them all - it has nifty arsenal of often loud, spectacular weapons, typhoon, ability to hack security hubs and make automated defences run amok and slaughter everyone, which is not exactly conductive for stealth, environment traversal augs, improvised weapons (throwing heavy shit), destructible walls, traps (mines) and so on.

Also, regarding popamole, cover mechanics is not essential for either combat or stealth, as a matter of fact it's even less useful for combat, than stealth, because while unforgiving combat doesn't really hinge on enemy not seeing you for a split second, so fitting tight behind cover isn't as important - just remember to not pop out in the same spot if you neglect sticky cover buton. Of course, not using sticky cover makes smart vision all the more desirable upgrade.

I did not say that stealth is the only valid way in DX:HR, I just said that the game has no challenge what-so-ever on the stealth path. A fake achievement. Apparently, this is too much.
You have sticky cover, silent take-downs and other stealth augs, imbecilic AI, pistol + silencer, the entire environment is designed to allow a stealth approach and it seems ghosting the game is really *hard* and an achievement in itself. Fuck this shit.
 

Kaol

Educated
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
253
It is a bad game though, when compared with DX1.

Its on par with Invisible War, good enough for a play through but nothing more.
Nigga, please.

Even if other stuff was equal (and it is not) it has no universal ammo, no completely derpy in-universe excuse for universal ammo, levels larger than a closet, satisfactory gunplay and no guido douchebag for protagonist which already makes it infinity times better (no "AAH! AAH! I'M COOKED!" either).

Likewise IW has no utterly retarded and BSB hacking minigame, a slightly less bad final level and no pissfilter.

Both are nothing compared to the original. Neither are worth a second playthrough.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,421
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Likewise IW has no utterly retarded and BSB hacking minigame

The hacking minigame is in fact one of the best hacking minigames in any game, because it's influenced by the character's skills and includes resource management elements (of hacking softwares) among other reasons

Just because you got tired of it doesn't make it "utterly retarded and BSB" :decline:
 

Kaol

Educated
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
253
Likewise IW has no utterly retarded and BSB hacking minigame

The hacking minigame is in fact one of the best hacking minigames in any game, because it's influenced by the character's skills and includes resource management elements (of hacking softwares) among other reasons

Just because you got tired of it doesn't make it "utterly retarded and BSB" :decline:

It is utterly retarded becasue:

Software that only works once makes no sense. "Slow" Worm and "Nuke" Virus is just silly.

All objects share the same minigame, but the game only makes partial sense for computer systems not electronic door locks.

It is BSB becasue:

Once you have played the minigame a few times it becomes trivial, character skills are plentiful and most of the hacking skills are 99% useless.

There are far too many individual nodes with generic rewards making 'hacksploration' a boring process.

It is certainly not "one of the best hacking minigames", try the Sega Genesis version of Shadowrun for a similar but massively better version.
 

Executer

Phrenologist
Joined
Mar 14, 2012
Messages
733
Location
Australia
Project: Eternity
Wouldn't be that hard to make the DX:HR sequel better though.

1) Limit Praxis points (so you can't do everything by the end)
2) Fix boss fights (alternate ways to handle)
3) Less long/tedious between hub missions, connect stuff to central hubs more instead.
4) Better pacing, don't rush the end.
5) Make take downs less derp, simple throat slash, neck break, asphyxiation please.
6) Even a bit more meaningful C&C.

Probably still not the greatest thing ever, but it would give it enough to be worth a second playthrough, cause now HR isn't.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
7,332
Software that only works once makes no sense. "Slow" Worm and "Nuke" Virus is just silly.

It makes sense as consumable in a fucking video game that has a resource managing aspect. Thank god developers still manage to think like gamers, unlike your kind of people.
 

Kaol

Educated
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
253
Software that only works once makes no sense. "Slow" Worm and "Nuke" Virus is just silly.

It makes sense as consumable in a fucking video game that has a resource managing aspect. Thank god developers still manage to think like gamers, unlike your kind of people.

Its tacky and arcade though. I don't demand 100% realism but its the same as people having giant yellow exclamation marks on top of their heads.
 

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