Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

1eyedking DX:HR's Lead Designer talks about level design philosophy

Copper

Savant
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
469
But is it a game's fault? No, it's because they can't control themselves.
So the game designers go out of their way to reward just one playstyle, but we should instead blame the players that want to be rewarded?

That's some high-level apologetic nonsense.

Yeah - an incentive may be perverse, but it's human nature to follow the shiny. It's like saying 'I eat healthy food, fuck those obese losers. Show some self control!' Or in other words, if everyone else is an freak, chances are, you're the freak.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,274
Location
Terra da Garoa
Nope. That's either "from JCD to OCD" or "OCDex" - dunno which one is better.

That's just a shitty approach to the gaming. Which one has to transcend if he wants to squeeze more out of this hobby. I mean, what is the reward of gaming? It's not having max level or good gear or all skills maxed out. It's fun. And fun usually doesn't lie in having all of those - usually, once you have all those that's where the fun ends. And, usually, you have to engage in lots of unfun behaviour to gain all those. So what's the point?

I mean, you're hitting yourself in the balls. It hurts. It gives you the right to boast "I'm a tough guy, I'm taking it like a man", but it hurts a lot. And you also say that the game makes you do that. But it's your own fist that is hitting your own balls - the game has no fists. By your own will - the game is not some kind of brainwashing machine, it can't force you. So why are you hitting yourself in the balls? Stop doing this shit, man, it's bad for your health.
What a simplistic strawmen you are making, can't you argue like a real person? The min/max approach in HR would be to knockout all enemies, get the ghost bonuses and then come back and kill all of them. No one is talking about going to such extremes.

HR sets up ghosting levels as a challenge, and it might surprise you to know that facing challenges is why some people play games, is what's FUN for them. The problem here is that it's an empty challenge. Deus Ex was a game that had a balance of all approaches, so ghosting it meant taking the hardest route sometimes. In HR however, stealth is always a viable, and usually superior approach. So players looking to have FUN with a challenge are left unsatisfied.

My interpretation is that the tedium of stealth requires in-game incentives in order to balance it as an alternative against the relatively straightforward combat approach, which offers the use of cool weapons and powers.
On the contrary, by playing a combat approach you get XP every guard you kill. Kill/Knockout no one and you get no XP, so they added those stealth bonus to compensate.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
What a simplistic strawmen you are making, can't you argue like a real person?

Oh, please. I'm so tired of this "I don't like your arguments so I'll just invoke the power of calling them a strawman or any other trick from that old book of arguments".

HR sets up ghosting levels as a challenge, and it might surprise you to know that facing challenges is why some people play games, is what's FUN for them. The problem here is that it's an empty challenge. Deus Ex was a game that had a balance of all approaches, so ghosting it meant taking the hardest route sometimes. In HR however, stealth is always a viable, and usually superior approach. So players looking to have FUN with a challenge are left unsatisfied.

And how is that related to what we were talking about? In case you forgot, the argument was: HR has the highest reward for ghosting so you're forced into ghosting instead of having a choice and being forced is no fun. Now you say that it's not fun because the ghosting is not fun. Sorry, but these are two different things.

If ghosting is not fun and doesn't pose a challenge then just don't ghost. What is stopping you? Only your sense of munchkinism that doesn't let you to take the route that doesn't give as much xp. Yes, it's the problem of the game that different routes are not balanced and some of them are shitty. But it is your personal choice to stick with the shittiest of them. If you're making that choice, why are you complaining?
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,274
Location
Terra da Garoa
Yes, because saying stuff like "So why are you hitting yourself in the balls? Stop doing this shit, man, it's bad for your health." is the height of a logical argument...

And how is that related to what we were talking about? In case you forgot, the argument was: HR has the highest reward for ghosting so you're forced into ghosting instead of having a choice and being forced is no fun.
No one said anything about being forced, you are the one that came up with that. The argument was that is PROMOTES sticking only to stealth, while the original is designed around a mix of all playstyles. The game offers incentives for you to play it in a non-satisfying way, that poses no challenge, and that's a dumb design decision.

Yes, you can play anyway you like, no one is forcing you to do anything - but that still makes HR's design stupid! It's a damn good reason to complain.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,875,975
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
My interpretation is that the tedium of stealth requires in-game incentives in order to balance it as an alternative against the relatively straightforward combat approach, which offers the use of cool weapons and powers.

Then why award them?
Awarding XPs is game's way of codifying desirable behaviour.

They probably just thought "ghosting is hard, so it needs a higher reward", but forgot to make sure it was actually harder in practice. Playtesting is for lesser beings.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
I actually tried to play HR as an FPS but it got boring fast.

That's because the shooting part is designed around a cover system, not as an FPS. Everything from Jensen being super fragile (even with armor aug upgrades) to super precise enemies, enormous zoom boost when you aim from cover etc. points to a cover shooter design.
 

Gragt

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,864,860
Location
Dans Ton Cul
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
I'm replaying HR right now, it really goes out of its way to make you go full stealth. Not only the level design, but stuff like "Ghost" and "No alert" bonus points. That plain out says "either go full stealth, or you are wrong and won't get bonus points".

Or even something as simple as the lethal and non-lethal takedowns: if one awards you more XP, why go for the other?

Ah well, that game was still a step in the right direction, but after all this time you’d expect someone to manage to surpass DX, Thief, or VtM:B for that sort of game. I guess it’s the same as the movie industry: they lost the savoir faire and need to rediscover it all again.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
On the contrary, by playing a combat approach you get XP every guard you kill. Kill/Knockout no one and you get no XP, so they added those stealth bonus to compensate.

Yeah, I think that's the case. They expected that a player with guns blazing approach will clean out a level while a stealth player will knock out some but avoid most enemies (instead of knocking out every enemy on the map and hacking everything from computers to locks you know the code for and alarm panels for that sweet XP).

That said I don't get the rationale behind lethal takedowns, they're far more noisy and award less XP compared to their non-lethal counterparts. What's their point aside from the cool factor of killing someone with your arm blades?
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Yes, because saying stuff like "So why are you hitting yourself in the balls? Stop doing this shit, man, it's bad for your health." is the height of a logical argument...

We're on the codex - by the local standards, that should rank pretty high.


No one said anything about being forced, you are the one that came up with that. The argument was that is PROMOTES sticking only to stealth, while the original is designed around a mix of all playstyles. The game offers incentives for you to play it in a non-satisfying way, that poses no challenge, and that's a dumb design decision.

So what's the problem if it promotes that? Just don't play it that way.

The thing is, this issue is real and global. It's not about just HR - it's about people's tendency to stick to the "safest route" (it's not a proper word combination but it's late and I'm too tired to search for a better one) each and every time, even if that doesn't do too much good for their fun. It's omnipresent. Lots of people here have played through fallouts multiple times. I wonder, how many of those were with the gauss snipers or with bozar/vindicator? How many of them actually tried something different seriously? Unarmed? Small burst guns? Flamers & Rockets? Flares? The answer, I'm afraid, is somewhat predictable.

And that's true for the majority of games. You can accuse the original Deus Ex of the very same sin, btw - the sniper rifle is so stupidly powerful and useful in all situations (especially once you make it god-tier with mods) that it really slaughters the point of all other weapons. And it also requires almost no xp investment to use - mods allow it to shoot nigh-flawlessly even on the normal skill level. And going through the entire game performing one and the same "snipe them from afar" maneuver gets rather stale quickly. But, well, are you truly forced into it?

Yes, you can play anyway you like, no one is forcing you to do anything - but that still makes HR's design stupid! It's a damn good reason to complain.

I'm not saying that the design is good. But the majority of games have their ups and downs and souring your gameplay fun for the sake of a higher "reward" is hardly exclusive to HR. As I've said, it's pretty global. And people like to defend and rationalize this approach way, way too much.
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,511
Location
The Desert Wasteland
You can accuse the original Deus Ex of the very same sin, btw - the sniper rifle is so stupidly powerful and useful in all situations (especially once you make it god-tier with mods) that it really slaughters the point of all other weapons. And it also requires almost no xp investment to use - mods allow it to shoot nigh-flawlessly even on the normal skill level. And going through the entire game performing one and the same "snipe them from afar" maneuver gets rather stale quickly. But, well, are you truly forced into it?

I've played DE1 3 times, and never once did I keep the sniper rifle in my inventory over the assult rifle, rocket launcher, pistol, and sword.
 
Last edited:

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,274
Location
Terra da Garoa
I'm not saying that the design is good. But the majority of games have their ups and downs and souring your gameplay fun for the sake of a higher "reward" is hardly exclusive to HR. As I've said, it's pretty global. And people like to defend and rationalize this approach way, way too much.
This is a thread specifically about HR's level design. If a debate about its overreliance on stealth has any place, it's here. Going "all games have flaws" is a non-argument, serves nothing and leads us nowhere.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,043
Location
The Satellite Of Love
DX:HR is still a good game, unlike Alphail Prototurd.
5AUGoJr.gif
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
This is a thread specifically about HR's level design. If a debate about its overreliance on stealth has any place, it's here. Going "all games have flaws" is a non-argument, serves nothing and leads us nowhere.

Nice escape, bro. Oh, wait, no it is not.

You measure the quality of the levels by the "reward" they offer, pretty much. You whine that some paths are better "rewarded" than the others. But XP is not the reward for playing the game - fun is. It can be hard to understand, but that's the way it is. Should be, at least. So whether or not game design is biased to one of the playthrough styles is not really relevant - it's not like the original Deus Ex wasn't biased. Skills and rewards for investing into them were hardly equal.

It's all about whether the paths themselves interesting or not. And I'm not saying they're interesting. But "boo-hoo, the game does not reward me enough" or "boo-hoo, the reward is too great to stop me from collecting it" is a true non-argument.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
I've played DE1 3 times, and never once did I keep the sniper rifle in my inventory over the assult rifle, rocket launcher, and sword.

Most weapons are powerful and worth investing in in DX but what separates the sniper and dragon tooth from the pack is that they have some uses outside straight combat like destroying cameras, turrets, alarm panels and even most doors (of course, GEP gun does that as well and is even better at it but it's loud as hell).
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,274
Location
Terra da Garoa
You measure the quality of the levels by the "reward" they offer, pretty much.
This is my last reply to you, I'm tired of you failing to understand people's arguments and distorting them. I'm not measuring levels by reward, I'm complaining that it uses rewards to promote one specific one playstyle, instead of mixing them as in Deus Ex.

Take a guy playing HR for the first time. The very first level suggests you to sneak across the roof and avoid being seen. It's extremely easy to do, way more than fighting the enemies - but the player doesn't know that, it's his first time playing. So they go to the roof and get a Ghost achievement, some extra points and praise from the NPCs. The game is clearly saying that you did something cool, something smart. And that will motivate people to try to do it again, not because they are trained dogs, but because that's how teaching works.

YES, they can ignore it and play anyway they want. But the fucking tutorial mission is saying "either do this or this", when the original game was all about mixing approaches. The whole game follows this logic. It's fucking bad design, there's no way around it, and the fact that other games also have issues doesn't make it less of an issue.

Finally, fun is subjective. Some people play on Easy for the story, others on Hard for the challenge, and both are having fun in their way.
 
Unwanted

jcd

Punished JCD
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
10,681
Location
UNATCO HQ
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Bubbles In Memoria
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
 
Last edited:
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
1,711
Mass Effect Series."

:retarded:

Mass Effect has some of the worst level design in video game history.

If you faggots want more DX level design to criticize then step right up: http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx
I've spent a lot of time refining DX's maps.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
That was my first reaction when I saw it but if I had to guess it was the cover system and combat they looked at from ME as opposed to level design.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Eh, Mass Effect did have some decently interesting tactics from the various characters like the biotics powers and Garrus'(?) tech/overheat abilities and such. But, yes, the level design made it popamole most of the time.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom