1eyedking DX:HR's Lead Designer talks about level design philosophy

[Ninjerk]

I don't know if I could have rolled my eyes any harder at the inspiration section. He should have just listed MGS about 7 times or however many list items there were.

 

[The Bishop]

Somehow I didn't notice HR forcing me into "full stealth". Of all the ways to go through the game killing everyone with a silent pistol was probably the easiest. I ignored 'Ghost' bonuses and was swimming in praxis anyway. And on my first run I killed or stunned enemies at some places and sneaked past them in others never feeling the game is forcing me to stick with one choice of approach forever. The only thing HR really discouraged is going full out assault (mostly by making it incredibly boring), which I don't find terribly limiting.

 

[Keldryn]

I'm still playing through the early portions of the game (it's not something I can play while the kids are up, so I haven't had a lot of time with it), but I definitely noticed what you guys are complaining about. The levels absolutely feel like they were designed for specific gameplay approaches, and don't feel at all like real places -- very much unlike the original Deus Ex. The locations were generally given layouts that didn't stray too far from how they might look in real life, and I appreciated it.

It might seem odd, by Deus Ex was a big inspiration for me when I was designing my levels for Max Payne 3 (it was originally envisioned as being much less linear and staged within each level). It really pulls me out of a game when the level layouts don't make any logical sense. In the original Deus Ex, it felt like they first created a believable layout and then worked out how different gameplay approaches could fit in. Still one of my all time favorite games, and one that I constantly compare other games to.

 

[tuluse]

Cool article. I liked HR quite a bit, and I think they did what they set out to do. Was the level design great? No, but was a damn sight better than most other recent games. I'd be curious to see what the devs can do with this game under their belt and another crack at it.

 

[crakkie]

This isn't the team that went on to make Thaif then? If not then I guess there is hope.

 

[tuluse]

This isn't the team that went on to make Thaif then? If not then I guess there is hope.

The word is that it was the same development studio, but a different team there.

 

[sser]

I should probably give HR another try some day, but I could not stomach that game for long. The piss-colored filter over everything was just as bad as the generic level design. I feel as though its problem stemmed from the levels actually feeling like levels (i.e., constrained, like a maze with options), whereas the first Deus Ex definitely carried a 'sandbox' feel almost all the way through. I might not just have gotten far enough into HR to see that kind of gameplay, I dunno, but I know game designers like to put their best shit on display in the first half (impress those reviewers, baby!) and I found myself very bored.

 

[tuluse]

I should probably give HR another try some day, but I could not stomach that game for long. The piss-colored filter over everything was just as bad as the generic level design. I feel as though its problem stemmed from the levels actually feeling like levels (i.e., constrained, like a maze with options), whereas the first Deus Ex definitely carried a 'sandbox' feel almost all the way through. I might not just have gotten far enough into HR to see that kind of gameplay, I dunno, but I know game designers like to put their best shit on display in the first half (impress those reviewers, baby!) and I found myself very bored.

The director's cut greatly reduces the piss filter (though I actually liked it because I'm crazy or smth).

I wouldn't say best levels in HR are at the beginning. Also, reviewers aren't impressed by level design unless you live in circa 2001. The game is kind of running together in my head now, but one of the Asian cities was my favorite part.

That said, you're never going to get the DX1 feeling from it. Looking Glass quality level design is far beyond most studios.

 

[Ninjerk]

Detroit and Hong Kong were pretty stellar with regards to hacking (ie. lots of good email exchanges, showed consideration that this is a world with "real" people in it. it falls off eventually with the enjoyment of the hack minigame).

 

[Metro]

Towards the end I just stopped checking all those computer terminals in the endless string of office buildings.

 

[Jaesun]

If only the DX:HR development team actually played Deus Ex and adopted the designs it used it would have possibly been an enjoyable game.

I could not get into it.

 

[Gozma]

Needs a hacking removal mod

 

[Ninjerk]

Towards the end I just stopped checking all those computer terminals in the endless string of office buildings.

The hacking got old, and eventually the emails were too many, but I liked it for some time.

 

[Average Manatee]

Grunker nailed this on his Desu Ex mini-review:

Modern stealth games and Deus Ex-likes make one core mistake in their design. This mistake is the most apparent in Arkane Studio's Dishonored, but it can, in one way or another, be found in almost every stealth game since 2004. They ask you to focus on either stealth or combat.

What made Deus Ex so mind-blowingly awesome, such a hallmark of gaming, is that it asks you to decide, for each single obstacle you face, which approach you want to use. You're not asked to stealth through the whole game even when combat seems a better approach, or to shoot and kill everyone even when creeping through the shadows would be smarter. It doesn't reward you for sticking to a single course of action during the entire game. It lets you decide.

The fun of being a thief, a secret agent or a similar type of character, is using different methods and skills for different obstacles. Having you play through the game three times while using exclusively a single tactic on each playthrough entirely defeats the purpose of having multiple approaches available. Deus Ex understood what each of its spiritual successors has failed to grasp, and for that, I salute it.

I'm replaying HR right now, it really goes out of its way to make you go full stealth. Not only the level design, but stuff like "Ghost" and "No alert" bonus points. That plain out says "either go full stealth, or you are wrong and won't get bonus points".

The worst part is that I can just see the conversation and the logic that went on behind this:

OK, in our latest round of playtesters we found that 95% of them went in the front door with guns blazing and shot everything. How can we make sure they know that they don't have to do that?

Well, why don't we add some special bonus for stealth?

Great, now 50% of players are doing stealth and 50% are shooting shit up. That's exactly the % we wanted! We've created the perfect DX level!

Then the two devs go to bed together and DXHR is born 9 months later

 

[Gozma]

The "you get less XP for a fatal cutscene punch than non-fatal, even though it is noisier and useless" thing really shows they didn't even do a pass after the rough draft. They needed a Sawyer-like design criticism nerd to handle that kind of middle layer stuff and no one did it so it shipped. So they ended up with perverse RPG design you need to ignore - not that big a deal honestly (I've certainly enjoyed games that did that kind of stuff immensely worse) but it sours a playthrough a bit.

 

[tuluse]

The "you get less XP for a fatal cutscene punch than non-fatal, even though it is noisier and useless" thing really shows they didn't even do a pass after the rough draft. They needed a Sawyer-like design criticism nerd to handle that kind of middle layer stuff and no one did it so it shipped. So they ended up with perverse RPG design you need to ignore - not that big a deal honestly (I've certainly enjoyed games that did that kind of stuff immensely worse) but it sours a playthrough a bit.

There is some evidence the game was rushed towards the end and they didn't have time to adjust things at the end.

Like say the ending.

 

[felipepepe]

What's retarded is how the Director's Cut doesn't fix that, just alters graphics a bit, adds vents & hacking to boss fights and includes dev commentaries. Really not that much for a release 2 years after the original.

 

[Ninjerk]

The "you get less XP for a fatal cutscene punch than non-fatal, even though it is noisier and useless" thing really shows they didn't even do a pass after the rough draft. They needed a Sawyer-like design criticism nerd to handle that kind of middle layer stuff and no one did it so it shipped. So they ended up with perverse RPG design you need to ignore - not that big a deal honestly (I've certainly enjoyed games that did that kind of stuff immensely worse) but it sours a playthrough a bit.

They tried to push the cinematic takedowns being a good decision so hard when they were developing the game.

 

[CyberP]

I'm pretty sure I've seen at least three lengthy threads on the Codex filled with whining about the game and these subjects, yet here we are again.
Everyone sure loves to hate this one...as do I.

The game is the manifestation of ideas popamole designers come up with when their masters loosen their grip on the leash just a little for an attempt at a complex game. A somewhat noteworthy attempt, yet it falls short in nearly every respect. I nearly dropped my monocle in my imperial red robe tea when I saw it on the Codex's top 100 cRPGs of all time list.

Spoiler

They should play DX with my mod and learn how to execute incline. First thing they'll be needing is a monocle which will be used to see game design from an enlightened perspective

This may all be satirical, yet little sarcasm was used.

I have little hope for the new game they are working on & the wider "Universe" (universe of piss-gold merchandise & lackluster spin-offs. They are going to beat this horse and rape its corpse harder than the gaming community collectively bashes their game).

 

[chotread]

Ban Keldryn

 

[ZagorTeNej]

If only the DX:HR development team actually played Deus Ex and adopted the designs it used it would have possibly been an enjoyable game.

I could not get into it.

I think they did play original DX or at the very least watched someone else play it, there are quite a few bits and pieces that seem atleast in part inspired by the original. An attempt at original's reactivity (people comment on whether you used lethal or non-lethal approach in the first mission, if you massacre a police station there's later a newspaper article about it etc.), a mini-boss like character that shows up at several parts of the game if you let him live (similar to WS appearing in Area51 if you ran away from him in Ocean Lab), an opportunity to save your pilot's life, final boss being plugged into a machine like Bob Page, the whole Hengsha part to a degree, modding the starting pistol into a great weapon than can carry you through the whole game etc.

It's not a stretch to assume they have a solid grasp on what made original DX great but simply lack the capability/talent to reproduce it for now (which may or may not change in the future). Dishonored is actually a far more faithful DX-like in terms of level design and emergent gameplay than HR but they had Harvey Smith, a significant advantage.

 

[Average Manatee]

I can almost guarantee you it was playtesters who screwed everything up. The same guys that did "the guard told us we couldn't go upstairs so we didn't" in Dishonored, combined with marketing in charge of ensuring that the game appealed to everyone.

 

[Perkel]

I still remember that time after fist mission when i just strolled exploring level and i noticed i can use manhole to sewer system. At that point i didn't even knew what i had to do in that mission (as i had to meet with someone), either way i just went there to be murdered by 3-4 dudes and it looked like some hidden facility.

This is exploration and how it should be done.

Take now for example almost any 3D pseudo FPS RPG game and all of them funnel you into one path and exploration is tied completely to sidequests or being random crap like in fallout 3.


also i love how they talk about what made earlier game great and then they decided to put those shitty boss fights...

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

Stealth is for faggs. I killed every single enemy i found in DHR. Shit was awesome with Icarus takedowns

 

[Martius]

also i love how they talk about what made earlier game great and then they decided to put those shitty boss fights...

From what I heard maybe that wasnt their fault. I think during development they had to outsource these parts to another company. I suppose they did something with that in Directors Cut.