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1eyedking DX:HR's Lead Designer talks about level design philosophy

Gragt

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Looking Glass quality level design is far beyond most studios.

The same way movies like Ben-Hur or El Cid won’t be made again. The common reason is that it is too expensive, but the truth is they don’t know how to do it anymore. Even with today’s means they lost the experience to built sets and handle crowds on such a scale—and no, the Peter Jackson CGI bread and circuses do not reach that level. 50 or so years ago people made a career in the movie industry; whatever their job, they started at a novice level and learned from the veterans, later sharing that experience with the newbies of the next generation. Nowadays people stay for only a few years in the movie industry and then leave, so it is stuck with a constant generation of novices. It’s even more glaring when it comes to writers; some of them stay long enough to get an award for a promising early work and then disappear.

And similarly video games are in a bit of a Dark Age now. To take your exemple, Looking Glass created some awesome level design and the same core principles can be found in its offsprings, like Ion Storm’s Deus Ex or Irrational’s System Shock 2—you can also find hints of this in the design of their other games like SWAT 4 or even Bioshock. And where is it now? DX:HR clearly took inspiration from it but as it has been discussed, in this thread and others, they aren’t quite there yet. The New vs Old X-COM also spawned the same sort of discussion. Also look at the evolution of Id Software as they lost core people over time…. Some people who love old games want to create spiritual successors, like Larian with Ultima, but that’s still something they are left to rediscover on their own. It would be far healthier for everybody, including us, if the video game industry kept a living memory of these skills so they continue to improve over time, instead of having to be discovered and starting from zero all over again.
 

buzz

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Wasn't this the game where you HAD to fight the bosses 1vs1 by attacking them directly and shit?

How the fuck is that "biased stealth"?

I dunno, I thought it was pretty cool but I haven't finished it yet. I remember playing the leak and being absolutely stunned when I fucked around too much around the building and those hostages were dead :salute: that's not something I often saw in video games. I also liked the piss filter myself, it worked well for their specific type of cyberpunk atmosphere (kinda how Blade Runner had a teal color going for it).
 

Ninjerk

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Wasn't this the game where you HAD to fight the bosses 1vs1 by attacking them directly and shit?

How the fuck is that "biased stealth"?

I dunno, I thought it was pretty cool but I haven't finished it yet. I remember playing the leak and being absolutely stunned when I fucked around too much around the building and those hostages were dead :salute: that's not something I often saw in video games. I also liked the piss filter myself, it worked well for their specific type of cyberpunk atmosphere (kinda how Blade Runner had a teal color going for it).
As said before, those parts were outsourced and incongruent with the rest of the game design (I believe this is an issue AP has?).

EDIT: I should say incongruent with the levels' stealth bias. It was absolutely congruent with their attempt to create a game to rival MGS.
 

Perkel

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also i love how they talk about what made earlier game great and then they decided to put those shitty boss fights...
From what I heard maybe that wasnt their fault. I think during development they had to outsource these parts to another company. I suppose they did something with that in Directors Cut.

How it wasn't their fault. They designed it to be in game in first place. It is their fault.
 

Jasede

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Sometimes I feel like you're bad at games. HR is perfectly fine ignoring all stealth. The reward for guns blazing is more action and faster completion time. Yes, you get less experience. No, it won't limit you because to succeed at a violent, noisy playthrough you need less skills. /shrug
 
Unwanted

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HR is a terrible, despicable stealth game. Why would anybody want to play it that way in a repeat playthrough, beyond being little xp whores? Combat is not much better but at least it is somewhat engaging, plus the fact you get less xp makes things a little more interesting with the RPG systems in terms of C&C.
 

DraQ

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Umm, no. Even if you can argue about it theoretically, it doesn't work practically - for example, let's take Fallout 1-2. Stealing gives you infinite experience if you abuse it like hell - does that mean that the most desirable behaviour there is to steal back and forth from everyone?
Your first problem is that you assume that Fallout had a good XP system.
+M

Another big difference is that DX1 awarded you with exp points and cash for fulfilling (or making progress in) mission objectives, and exploring the levels.
And that was already too much. The reward for exploration should be the stuff you find.

One of the things that pissed me off visually in HR (other than the game being soaked in piss) was that most of the areas felt like an adventure playground full of conspicuously-placed cover, endless vents and side passages. Even when the stealth paths were well-done they were still glaring right out at the player, whereas in DX1 places like the VersaLife Building feel like they might actually be real buildings with semi-logical layouts.
I think the difference might have been that DX1 levels were first built as locales while DX:HR ones as collections of paths.
It's just a hunch, though.
Still, you can't deny DX:HR locations feeling more modular.

I mean, what is the reward of gaming? It's not having max level or good gear or all skills maxed out. It's fun. And fun usually doesn't lie in having all of those - usually, once you have all those that's where the fun ends. And, usually, you have to engage in lots of unfun behaviour to gain all those. So what's the point?
The point is that maxing out your XPs allows you to unlock some abilities earlier unlocking additional options or even unique content. For example if you remain undetected throughout the first mission, reaping all the objective, exploration, hacking and non-lethal takedown bonuses, you can have CASIE unlocked by the time you handle the hostage situation - dude's psych profile and all.

It's not just that the game rewards you with XP, it's also the fact that those XPs keep rewarding you with content, at least until all the useful stuff is maxed out. Want to play with several cool guns? You need inventory space -> you need XP. Want to access interesting stuff early or at all? Maybe take over security systems? You need hacking -> you need XP. Want to reach some otherwise unreachable locations? You need augs -> you need XP. Don't want to cut yourself from advantageous routes suiting your playstyle? You need augs -> you need XP. Want to have any use for that heavy rifle? You need recoil-dampening augs -> you need XP.

The min/max approach in HR would be to knockout all enemies, get the ghost bonuses and then come back and kill all of them.
IIRC you don't get XP for killing the unconscious.

by playing a combat approach you get XP every guard you kill. Kill/Knockout no one and you get no XP, so they added those stealth bonus to compensate.
Of course the fact that KO/killing doesn't invalidate stealth bonus makes it fall apart because you don't need compensation if you can get both.

If anything, the "penalty" for getting spotted or leaving any sort of traces (including dead/KO'd/disappeared guards) should be tightened security and heightened alert in subsequent missions.
That's because the shooting part is designed around a cover system, not as an FPS. Everything from Jensen being super fragile (even with armor aug upgrades) to super precise enemies, enormous zoom boost when you aim from cover etc. points to a cover shooter design.
Actually it's fairly interesting if you refrain from using wallhack cover system. The AI is about developed enough to be fallible and make it viable despite Jensen's fragility (NPCs don't track your position if they can't see you, so not using popamole doesn't equal being shot to pieces).

Admittedly the :popamole:way is more cinematic, but it's an easy mode and does get boring fast.

But they aren't, you only need to press the awesome button to perform non-lethal takedowns while you need to press and hold for lethal ones.
This. If anything non-lethal takedowns should be noisier and constrained (for example only working with unalerted people).

Most weapons are powerful and worth investing in in DX but what separates the sniper and dragon tooth from the pack is that they have some uses outside straight combat like destroying cameras, turrets, alarm panels and even most doors (of course, GEP gun does that as well and is even better at it but it's loud as hell).
SR also combines superior range, precision, firepower and ability to mount silencer (something you couldn't do with ordinary pistol).
Overall DX:HR's weapons are much better in all regards but lack of flavor stuff like pepper spray or fire extinguishers.

Sometimes I feel like you're bad at games. HR is perfectly fine ignoring all stealth. The reward for guns blazing is more action and faster completion time. Yes, you get less experience. No, it won't limit you because to succeed at a violent, noisy playthrough you need less skills. /shrug
Actually, you need more skills. Stealth doesn't really need any particular augs, just like you didn't need anything for stealth in the original - just patience and some thinking.

OTOH if you want to fight you benefit from armor upgrades, rebreather (gas grenades and barrels), flash and EMP shielding, inventory extension (for all that guns and ammo), smart vision (cloaked enemies and enemy movement behind cover), typhoon, recoil dampers, weapon stabilization, hacking to get the shit going with berserk turret or robot, extra movement speed, strength aug to use heavy equipment as makeshift shields and throw it at people, battery upgrades since you can't just wait it out in mid combat, etc.

If you want to go full street-sam you need all the augs you can get, even more so if you want to mix stealth and combat. For pure stealth you need almost none.
tl;dr
Garret doesn't need to Robocop.
 

bloodlover

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Wasn't this the game where you HAD to fight the bosses 1vs1 by attacking them directly and shit?

How the fuck is that "biased stealth"?

I dunno, I thought it was pretty cool but I haven't finished it yet. I remember playing the leak and being absolutely stunned when I fucked around too much around the building and those hostages were dead :salute: that's not something I often saw in video games. I also liked the piss filter myself, it worked well for their specific type of cyberpunk atmosphere (kinda how Blade Runner had a teal color going for it).

Actually with the "enhanced edition" or whatever it was called, they changed the boss battles a bit and you still win easy having a stealth build.

I think HR was a great game but (at least for me) just like the first DE, it felt more rewarding to sneak around than to shoot your way through the levels. For me that was one of the selling points. The downside of stealth was that with the right augmentations you could become invisible for a long time and just run past the enemy. There was a mission
where that chick crashes with the helicopter and you have to save her
but again, with the proper augs you could just run behind the enemies and knock them out one by one without firing a single shot.

The atmosphere, the story and the locations were great. I wish they'd make another game like this soon.
 

Siobhan

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I still remember that time after fist mission when i just strolled exploring level and i noticed i can use manhole to sewer system. At that point i didn't even knew what i had to do in that mission (as i had to meet with someone), either way i just went there to be murdered by 3-4 dudes and it looked like some hidden facility.

This is exploration and how it should be done.

Take now for example almost any 3D pseudo FPS RPG game and all of them funnel you into one path and exploration is tied completely to sidequests or being random crap like in fallout 3.
If you're talking about the MJ12 base under Hell's Kitchen, that one is actually tied to a sidequest you get from Smuggler. You're right that at least you can enter the sewers and clean out the base fore you get the quest, but it's still not an ideal example of unguided exploration in DX.

I actually find it very disappointing when an area you explored on your own turns out to be tied to a side quest later on. An example from Gothic 1: I "found" (it's very hard to miss) this cave of black goblins that are way above my level but can be lured into a river, or one can also take a speed potion and rush through the cave looting as much as possible before one of them bastards one-shots you. The reward for all the work turns out to be a mace that is powerful enough that you can start exploring new areas. I thought that was really great design --- free exploration with no hints, a tough but optional challenge, and a great reward that presents you with many new gameplay choices. Except that later on you get a quest to retrieve some book from that cave, and at that point the goblins are total cannon fodder, and the mace wouldn't be a particularly great reward. So we've gone from a well-designed secret to a lame quest location. It retroactively cheapened the whole experience.

As far as I can remember (only played it once), all exploration in DXHR was like that. There was nothing like Jock's apartment in Shanghai or that middle-tier NSF guy that you never meet in person yet he has his own story arc, told through various emails. You couldn't grenade climb a tower to find an easter-egg, and even in Hengsha there was no analogue of, say, the sunken ship on liberty island, or the caved in tunnel with dead scientists in Shanghai. Everything was tied to an explicit side quest with a specific entry in your quest journal.

This turns exploration into a local process in DXHR: pick item from list, go to location, search perimeter. In principle that could work, but then the reduced size of the search space would have to be offset by making local exploration challenging, e.g. via puzzles, traps, illusions, and non-Euclidian level geometry like in an old-school dungeon crawler. DX didn't need any of these because the challenge was in navigating huge maps while always being on the lookout for environmental details (is there a switch somewhere, can I scale this ledge, can I make this jump across crates, etc). This kind of "endurance exploration" is shallow and pointless if you know you are in an exploration area of very local scope, and DXHR signals very clearly to you where you should go exploring.

One positive thing though: the piss filter is perfectly fine, it's an obvious homage to Ghost in the Shell 2. The Director's cut tones it down and looks much worse as a result.
 

ZagorTeNej

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Actually it's fairly interesting if you refrain from using wallhack cover system. The AI is about developed enough to be fallible and make it viable despite Jensen's fragility (NPCs don't track your position if they can't see you, so not using popamole doesn't equal being shot to pieces).
Admittedly the :popamole:way is more cinematic, but it's an easy mode and does get boring fast.

Sure, I didn't really play much using the sticky cover system (I rebinded it to P or something and never really used it after that) but again, game being designed around it hurt the experience. You can't lean, there's no shadows to hide in and augmented supersoldier that is already wearing kevlar being fragile like's he's made of wet tissue is a glaring flaw for a type of game that tries so hard to immerse you into it's world (it's a very cheap way to goad you into using cover).

Of course I still enjoyed it, I used/abused see through walls aug (which in this case actually becomes useful), cloak (though tried to do it somewhat sparingly), threw vending machines and refrigerators at people (and carried them around for cover), used grenades etc. but I think the game would have been much better off focusing on immersive first person experience (both as a stealth game and a shooter) and ditching the idiotic sticky cover BS completely.

Personally, what I would most like is a DX game with FEAR gunplay (replace the speed aug from original with bullet time).

This. If anything non-lethal takedowns should be noisier and constrained (for example only working with unalerted people).

Yup, that would have made it a much more interesting tradeoff. Thing is, I'm against 3d person switching cinematic takedowns in general, that they stop time is even worse.

SR also combines superior range, precision, firepower and ability to mount silencer (something you couldn't do with ordinary pistol).

It's overpowered but atleast it has a much slower firing rate than most other weapons which make them better suited for crowd control (though not by much as it can kill regular mooks with a torso shot at master skill) unlike zenith in HR which has it fucking all (atleast after a few rate of fire upgrades in addition to usual AP and laser).

Overall DX:HR's weapons are much better in all regards but lack of flavor stuff like pepper spray or fire extinguishers.

Disagree, they look and sound much better but that's about it. Aside from heavy weapons (I mean flamethrower and plasma rifle, GEP gun is useful in multiple ways for every player build obviously) I feel every other weapon in original DX is very effective and powerful in it's own right. Sure, sniper rifle overshadows them but as I said, not to the degree upgraded zenith pistol (and to a somewhat lesser degree revolver) does in HR. Also I wouldn't say pepper spray is a flavour weapon, it's an incredibly useful tool (combined with prod and/or baton) if you're going non-lethal.

I made a post on a similar topic a week or so ago so I'll just copy paste the relevant part:

I really liked weapon modification system (it was a very nice mix of original Deus Ex and IW) but I still found the arsenal somewhat disappointing and a number of the weapons felt redundant even when fully upgraded. For example, what use is a sniper rifle compared to 10mm pistol (with armor piercing and laser mods you both find very early in the game) when there aren't enough large open spaces, it is loud as hell, does less damage on a headshot on heavies and takes up far more inventory space? Same with shotgun compared to just using double takedowns when enemies are that close that shotgun would actually do some damage (not to mention that the game just isn't built for run and gun playstyle) or combat rifle/machine pistol/heavy rifle compared to magnum with explosive rounds that doesn't guzzle up ammo, is incredibly effective for crowd control, takes heavy soldiers down more easily and outright destroys even bots and turrets? Also, no melee weapons which just sucks, no other way to put it.
 
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Ninjerk

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ZagorTeNej Another thing to note about the sticky cover system: being in waist-high cover on the other side of a guard looking at you would not result in detection, but if you unstick from the cover you are immediately detected. The feedback to the community during development (and I presume in the immediate wake of release) was that you could just play not using sticky-cover if you disliked the cover itself or the third-person camera. As you said, there is no leaning and thus one puts themself at a significant disadvantage not using the cover to peek around corners as well as having a bigger detection hitbox (I'm assuming it uses a hitbox of some kind) when not stuck to cover.
 

Carrion

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The feedback to the community during development (and I presume in the immediate wake of release) was that you could just play not using sticky-cover if you disliked the cover itself or the third-person camera. As you said, there is no leaning and thus one puts themself at a significant disadvantage not using the cover to peek around corners as well as having a bigger detection hitbox (I'm assuming it uses a hitbox of some kind) when not stuck to cover.
The lack of leaning is indeed a big minus, but there is the see-through-walls aug (that I'd wager is all but useless in 3rd-person mode) and the radar, which still make it fairly easy to sneak around in first person. I've never used the cover system so I don't know how much easier it actually makes the game, but this is one rare case where the "you don't need to use it if you don't want to" excuse actually feels valid. I definitely never felt that the cover system would've been necessary in any part of the game, and that applies to both sneaking and shooting.

Of course it's up for debate whether having to rely on such magic gadgets to gather information about your surroundings is actually a good thing, as Human Revolution's largely LoS-based stealth system certainly feels like it was designed with the third-person mode in mind, moving from cover to cover while keeping the patrolling enemies in your sight at all times, which feels a bit lackluster in the FP mode. Having to use your equipment and especially ears to figure out what was going on in the next room was a huge part of the gameplay in Thief, but Human Revolution ignores that almost completely.
 

imweasel

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Stealth is for faggs. I killed every single enemy i found in DHR. Shit was awesome with Icarus takedowns :M
Sometimes I felt like stealth fagging in DX:HR, so I did that. Sometimes I felt like killing everything (usually when I really despised the faction I was up against - roleplaying FTW) so I did that. Pretty much the same as in the first Deus Ex... But IIRC the first Deus Ex was (usually) much less forgiving if you wanted play Rambo.

Anyway, it is usually smarter to stealth fag and stealth kill in both games because they are easier to play that way. DX:HR just gives XP bonuses for stealth fagging for some weird and stupid reason.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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DX:HR had too much vents and shit to hide the data streaming, but at least they tried to imitate original Deus Ex (even if their effort was half-assed).
Also, stealth fagging sometimes resulted in skipping over a room or two with some useful stuff.
 

ZagorTeNej

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Another thing to note about the sticky cover system: being in waist-high cover on the other side of a guard looking at you would not result in detection, but if you unstick from the cover you are immediately detected. The feedback to the community during development (and I presume in the immediate wake of release) was that you could just play not using sticky-cover if you disliked the cover itself or the third-person camera. As you said, there is no leaning and thus one puts themself at a significant disadvantage not using the cover to peek around corners as well as having a bigger detection hitbox (I'm assuming it uses a hitbox of some kind) when not stuck to cover.

Yeah, I only used sticky cover a bit on the first level but I got the same impression, similar to how firing a weapon from sticky cover also gives you a zoom in addition to the usual benefits.

My problem with the whole sticky cover system (aside from making the game too easy) is that it's neither here nor there, it's a half-assed compromise instead of making either a 3d person or a FP game and designing it around that one perspective. Take inspiration from either Thief or Chaos Theory, don't make a mish-mash of both.
 

MapMan

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IMHO DX:HR suffered from some poor design choices and poor (blind) AI, very much like Dishonored. The level design in DX:HR and Dishonored was really good and wasn't a problem itself. There were three main problems:
  1. How the game rewarded playing stealth. In DX:HR you got rewarded for HOW you completed objectives, not just completing them. Stealth granted the most XP and often allowed you to see the most hidden content.
  2. The AI was really bad (both DX:HR and Dishonored) and blind. This made stealth really, really easy and tedious. It all boiled down to knocking down everyone until there was no enemies left.
  3. The augs (and perks in Dishonored) were mostly useless for stealth and if they had some use, they made you even more overpowered and made things even easier. In DX:HR it was, for example, invisibility; in Dishonored it was teleportation that allowed you to TP behind enemy, choke, TP, choke, rinse and repeat.
All three points combined for pretty shitty gameplay, no matter how many times I tried both games. All three problems could be fixed if given some thought and the games wouldnt target the lowest common denominator. Shit, if the community would be given mod tools, they would've fixed it themselves.
 

Ninjerk

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Another thing to note about the sticky cover system: being in waist-high cover on the other side of a guard looking at you would not result in detection, but if you unstick from the cover you are immediately detected. The feedback to the community during development (and I presume in the immediate wake of release) was that you could just play not using sticky-cover if you disliked the cover itself or the third-person camera. As you said, there is no leaning and thus one puts themself at a significant disadvantage not using the cover to peek around corners as well as having a bigger detection hitbox (I'm assuming it uses a hitbox of some kind) when not stuck to cover.

Yeah, I only used sticky cover a bit on the first level but I got the same impression, similar to how firing a weapon from sticky cover also gives you a zoom in addition to the usual benefits.

My problem with the whole sticky cover system (aside from making the game too easy) is that it's neither here nor there, it's a half-assed compromise instead of making either a 3d person or a FP game and designing it around that one perspective. Take inspiration from either Thief or Chaos Theory, don't make a mish-mash of both.
Another problem I had was the aiming. I never felt like when I was firing from sticky cover that the gun ended up pointing where I thought the center of the screen was, and it definitely didn't feel like a PC shooter in general (for whatever reason).
 

DraQ

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I think the game would have been much better off focusing on immersive first person experience (both as a stealth game and a shooter) and ditching the idiotic sticky cover BS completely.
Agreed. And if they absolutely wanted to keep sticky TPP cover, they should have used camera positioning and DOF trickery to minimize situational awareness when tucked down, while still letting it look "cool".

Other than that I'm unable to complain about getting killed easily in an FPS.

Thing is, I'm against 3d person switching cinematic takedowns in general, that they stop time is even worse.
Agreed again. If still using TPP cutscene mode the time shouldn't be stopped and Jensen should take normal damage (while the enemies should keep fighting), maybe cancelling the takedown (but not Typhoon) when damage is taken.
OTOH takedowns could eat less energy then.

It's overpowered but atleast it has a much slower firing rate than most other weapons which make them better suited for crowd control (though not by much as it can kill regular mooks with a torso shot at master skill) unlike zenith in HR which has it fucking all (atleast after a few rate of fire upgrades in addition to usual AP and laser).
Actually the only OP thing Zenith has is its ridiculous AP upgrade. In general the unique upgrades in DX:HR are iffy. On one hand they are a cool idea. On the other many of them don't make sense.
Homing flechettes for CR, targetting system for RL and XBow/tranq, plus liquid cooling are examples of stuff that made sense and worked well.
OTOH the rest of stuff not so much - it didn't make sense in fluff (AP, explosive shots, homing flechettes for non-flechette SMG) and sometimes was broken mechanically (AP, SMG homing made it too similar to CR - should have had different upgrade if any, homing shots or AP might have been cool for sniper rifle). The game would be helped by using multiple ammo types, for example explosive shots upgrade for revolver enabling use of special explosive ammo in addition to normal one.

Disagree, they look and sound much better but that's about it. Aside from heavy weapons (I mean flamethrower and plasma rifle, GEP gun is useful in multiple ways for every player build obviously) I feel every other weapon in original DX is very effective and powerful in it's own right. Sure, sniper rifle overshadows them but as I said, not to the degree upgraded zenith pistol (and to a somewhat lesser degree revolver) does in HR. Also I wouldn't say pepper spray is a flavour weapon, it's an incredibly useful tool (combined with prod and/or baton) if you're going non-lethal.
HR weapons are also good and fun to use. Apart from that they are more consistent, have better art direction (HR in general has good art direction compared to the original) and lack incredibly derpy stuff like 7.62 NATO doing LOL damage.

For example, what use is a sniper rifle compared to 10mm pistol (with armor piercing and laser mods you both find very early in the game) when there aren't enough large open spaces
That's the problem with level design, though. If HR was as open as 1 was in some places, SR would have been much more relevant. And, like I said, AP upgrade was horribly broken.

IIRC the first Deus Ex was (usually) much less forgiving if you wanted play Rambo.

I'd claim the opposite, at least if not using sticky cover.

Another thing to note about the sticky cover system: being in waist-high cover on the other side of a guard looking at you would not result in detection, but if you unstick from the cover you are immediately detected.
OTOH the way sticky cover helped your concealment was sometimes over the top. FPP was far more consistent with actual line of sight.

The AI was really bad (both DX:HR and Dishonored) and blind. This made stealth really, really easy and tedious. It all boiled down to knocking down everyone until there was no enemies left.
Actually, I wouldn't say the AI in Dishonored was bad overall, but it was completely inadequate in confrontation with stealthy player - it worked just fine once you got detected and did a good job countering usual cheese.
 

Ninjerk

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Another thing to note about the sticky cover system: being in waist-high cover on the other side of a guard looking at you would not result in detection, but if you unstick from the cover you are immediately detected.
OTOH the way sticky cover helped your concealment was sometimes over the top. FPP was far more consistent with actual line of sight.

That was my point. On top of that, you get cheat-vision for sticking to cover. It was silly. They should have balanced it like MGS2 did by sending specialty patrols through impossible-to-operate doors if you're spotted. :troll:
 
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Sometimes I feel like you're bad at games. HR is perfectly fine ignoring all stealth. The reward for guns blazing is more action and faster completion time. Yes, you get less experience. No, it won't limit you because to succeed at a violent, noisy playthrough you need less skills. /shrug

I did both stealth/non lethal with a lot of hacking and action/lethal with minimal hacking playthroughs, on both I ended up having more praxis points than I needed. XP rewards for stealth/hacking are where game has miscommunicated its intent because XP system makes viable any approach you want to take. Additional XP rewards seem bigger than they actually are. Couple extra praxis points mean shit when you end up with more than you need either way.
 
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DraQ

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That was my point. On top of that, you get cheat-vision for sticking to cover. It was silly. They should have balanced it like MGS2 did by sending specialty patrols through impossible-to-operate doors if you're spotted. :troll:
First and foremost they should have given the AI an ability to search beyond last seen position, ability to understand existence of vents and ability to retain memories of buddy getting stabbed through the face with retractable swordarms for more than a minute after witnessing that.
 

Ninjerk

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Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
That was my point. On top of that, you get cheat-vision for sticking to cover. It was silly. They should have balanced it like MGS2 did by sending specialty patrols through impossible-to-operate doors if you're spotted. :troll:
First and foremost they should have given the AI an ability to search beyond last seen position, ability to understand existence of vents and ability to retain memories of buddy getting stabbed through the face with retractable swordarms for more than a minute after witnessing that.
team_in.jpg
 
Unwanted

MyFirstAlt

Unwanted
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
3
They should have balanced it like MGS2 did by sending specialty patrols through impossible-to-operate doors if you're spotted. :troll:

What would people think if I were to do this for the original Deus Ex, but through doors that are accessible but are very hard to bypass. Additionally, it wouldn't be a designed rule for every level, as in it would only be scripted to happen on some levels, such as those with high security areas and alarms (alarms would be the trigger).
Just an impulse/reactive thought, I have not thought about this deeply I just want to see the general reaction.

I'd also like to do the vent awareness (have AI throw grenades in, also from MGS) and fix the goldfish memory (a new AI state consisting of searching the area with guns ready and more).
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
They should have balanced it like MGS2 did by sending specialty patrols through impossible-to-operate doors if you're spotted. :troll:

What would people think if I were to do this for the original Deus Ex, but through doors that are accessible but are very hard to bypass. Additionally, it wouldn't be a designed rule for every level, as in it would only be scripted to happen on some levels, such as those with high security areas and alarms (alarms would be the trigger).
Just an impulse/reactive thought, I have not thought about this deeply I just want to see the general reaction.

I'd also like to do the vent awareness (have AI throw grenades in, also from MGS) and fix the goldfish memory (a new AI state consisting of searching the area with guns ready and more).
As long as you don't fucking go on about it and mention it in every post like CyberP. For that matter, why don't you just team up with him?
 

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