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Caim

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I meant more like the idea of how to balance different units of different strength levels against one another.
 

Mangoose

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I meant more like the idea of how to balance different units of different strength levels against one another.
They haven't said anything about adding races with different strength levels. Eldar are (I think) going to be the same strength level as the Marines. Well, Orks are gonna be different because of Free2Wagghhh so I have no idea how those will work.
They could bring back the IG suicide bombers
Armor spam, brah.

It's actually neat to see groups of unit types clustered together. Each are rather specialized well in different areas/environments due to mechanics and weapon choice. Even though Devastators are really useful lined up in high ground, Assaults can easy pickins anyone not paying attention, Tacticals still are useful because there's a lot of indoor areas, the others classes' mechanics and weapons are not as useful inside (Devs slow with weapons that need to be set up, Assaults don't have much use of their jumping), only they can capture control points, and the control points are basically all inside.

Again if you've played Space Marine, the classes basically play the same, but the bigger and indoor/outdoor combination maps let the classes actually use their mechanics utility-wise instead of just different "flavors" of how to kill someone.

I've seen a few tactics already... Havoc/Dev spam is of course how matches always start (because, I forgot to note, that every map so far is about one faction being the defender and the other being the attacker), but that of course changes when the attackers manage to inch their way inside (or armor spam rush past them, which unfortunately people don't try much). It is, however, hard for Assaults to jump their way to those initial Devs unless very coordinated (IMO a bit too hard right now, because of jump distance, map setup, etc).

Interestingly enough, Assaults are pretty potent anti-armor because of power axes and power fists, and in midgame it's a lot harder for Devs to stay safe and so are less useful than the beginning of the game as anti-armor. Because Dev weapons take time to entrench: Heavy Bolters need to be braced for effectiveness, Plasma Cannons need to be charged fully to shoot, and Lascannons need to keep their crosshair on target for a few seconds before it'll fire (funny as hell when you manage to kill infantry with a Lascannon though... Or if you're driving a Predator, see another Predator, and pop out and Lascannon it instead of shooting it with the tank). And then Tacticals can be decent anti-armor support by using plasma guns and melta bombs or krak grenades.

One fun thing I saw was a squad of Storm-shield assaults (no jumping of course) and those little (huge) shits were a huge annoyance.

So my TLDR this time is that this is like fulfillment of what Space Marine multiplayer was supposed to be lol. It's pretty crazy seeing servers full at 20v20 and how much time I've spent with just 3 maps available, while the game is in "alpha." Though it could be that there simply are no good shooters around (the type I like - Battlefield style).

---

BTW has anyone else played Battlefield: Vietnam? That was my introduction to the series and that may have been one of the scariest game I've ever played, because ANY bush could be hiding a gook.
 
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Aothan

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well from what I have also been reading the usual balance issues in Warhammer games is about, that is, Chaos tend to be able to run straight into combat and then become impervious. Maybe there should be a design philosophy for Warhammer computer games by now because it seems to be the usual issues that developers do not always grasp between army designs and how these will affect implementation

I agree though it is not easy to envision how balance comes about in a fps game with substantially different forces requiring different tactics (and to some extent skill levels), e.g. Eldar are going to be overspecialised, which is all the more reason to choose classes that can take on multiple roles for the sake of group tactics

I've also heard Eldar are coming next and may be released shortly, which sounds good, but anticipating ping and lag issues by playing overseas (250+ ping) means choosing ranged units firstly, apparently Eldar will have quite a few basic starting classes
 

Mangoose

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well from what I have also been reading the usual balance issues in Warhammer games is about, that is, Chaos tend to be able to run straight into combat and then become impervious. Maybe there should be a design philosophy for Warhammer computer games by now because it seems to be the usual issues that developers do not always grasp between army designs and how these will affect implementation

I agree though it is not easy to envision how balance comes about in a fps game with substantially different forces requiring different tactics (and to some extent skill levels), e.g. Eldar are going to be overspecialised, which is all the more reason to choose classes that can take on multiple roles for the sake of group tactics

I've also heard Eldar are coming next and may be released shortly, which sounds good, but anticipating ping and lag issues by playing overseas (250+ ping) means choosing ranged units firstly, apparently Eldar will have quite a few basic starting classes
Let's see... Currently the main three classes (a la the 'riflemen,' the heavy weapons, and 'melee jump assault') of the Space Marines and the Chaos Marines are identical, including weapon choice. Instead of having stupid point differentials in like tabletop lol.

They have added 2 classes to these main 3: One is a Support character, the other is a Ground Melee. Those have different mechanics between the two, though the intents behind the mechanics are similar:

Going in respective order of SM and Chaos, we've got Apothecaries and Sorcerers as Support. They are the ones that can heal others without needing a medpac. In the game there is a "downed/wounded state" if you get mowed down, and then you have to be shot at again (or executed) to be completely dead. You can crawl around if just wounded lol. During this wounded state, any type of unit can spend about 3 seconds "rescuing" you (though you rez at critical health, so you do have to find healing). Instead, a Apothecary or Sorcerer can rescue you VERY fast... I believe Apoths can do it by a melee smack with healing tool, and Sorcerers can rescue you from a distance at a quick rate, both all the way to full health. Sorcerers also have some additional spells, I forget what - and they are still adding/removing/tweaking these, and I don't remember what else an Apothecary does lol. But in general, you can consider them support. And neither have ranged weapons (though Sorcs may be able to do some mild damage from afar).

For Ground Melee, SM gets guys with Storm Shields, and Chaos Marines have guys with Marks of Nurgle. Both of course are melee only, no ranged weapons. The Storm Shield is very strong, I'm not sure how much damage it negates but I think it makes anything non-energy negligible. It's also interesting.. primarily it's an "active" ability, as in you have to press the button to hold it in front of you (and then you walk slowly). But it has the passive benefit of blocking from the left side when they're running, as they're wielded on their left arm, whereas their right arm is open.

Chaos Mark of Nurgle guys simply have a huge health pool. (Though without a "regenerating shield" mechanic) But it's enough health that they're quite tanky.

So basically Ground Melee = tanky. I don't believe either one has strong armor. But in any case, I believe the intent is to have both be equally survivable and be equally maneuverable (or equally NOT maneuverable).

---

Now, you do pose a good point because they still have the ability to add Khorne Berserkers, Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, and shit. I have no idea if they will because I don't pay attention much lol. But so far they aren't trying to differentiate the races in their base classes as they would in a strategy game, if you know what I mean.

Interestingly enough, it may be Eldar that could cause balance issues with specialized units that can are much better at melee (Banshees, Scorpions) than the others. Because Marines are still quite generalists. On the other hand, the developers may simply not adhere to fluff that much and still keep the base 3 classes (riflemen, heavy weapons, and specialized assault) closer in mechanics, and about equally balanced in strength. Then if going by precedent they'd add the specialized units after those three (Warlocks and Fire Dragons? Warp Spiders? Striking Scorpions? Sadly I don't think they plan on adding all the specialist units..).

Though, the assault troops with Eldar don't quite match the Marines at all... Their jump troops are ranged units/bombers IIRC (Swooping Hawks), whereas their fast assault are fast ground units like Howling Banshees. So perhaps they will have to make those different.

But I think 'riflemen'/'Tactical' equivalents should be okay by using Dire Avengers, and then use Dark Reapers as heavy support.

Would be cool to see Harlequins though!

---

Also there are still gonna be more vehicles, like speeders, buggies, bikes, etc. And I have no idea how that will balance out. Actually the current maps are too small for them to be that useful.
 

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Some slight corrections to Mangoose's post:

Apothecaries right now can actually use a classic bolter so they do have access to ranged weapons. They used to be able to take a chansword and pistol instead, but it hasn't been (re)implemented with the new loadout system yet. Also, they heal by using F on allies - downed or not - just like with a normal healing pack (it may be a bit faster, though, and it grants regeneration for a while). Their melee weapon (narthe...stuff) also adds poison, but right now it's hardly noticeable.
Right now they play like a standard (bolter) Tactical that can't capture points and heals everyone around.

Sorcerer has a pistol+sword combo and two spells - one of which is always healing and the other is either a single target debuff -supposedly target takes 2x damage- or poison. They both have quite a range with 100m but don't seem to be terribly effective. He also can take ammo/medkits/grenades, which is a nice bonus.

Mark of Nurgle marines also have a pistol so they can be quite a bit irritating at short range (pistol is weak but combined with their massive hp, they can sometimes afford to put a whole magazine into an enemy and reload under fire without getting downed). But with how stun works right now most people prefer to charge into melee as soon as possilble. The main advantage of MoN marines over Ground Assaults is that they can capture points while being tanky as hell - which is actually a big deal.

Chaos marks may pose a big problem to balance as they're meant to be a sort of modifier to standard classes. So a generic Mark of Nurgle (or other gods) will be applied to Havocs, Sorcerers etc. generally granting a similar effect but not necesarrily with the same power. Current Mark of Nurgle pseudo-class is meant to actually be a Traitor (Chaos Tactical equivalent), hence his ability to capture points. Not sure if his ability to use melee weapons is granted by the mark, or if chaos in general will have more melee options.


As to Eldar - well, they aim to start with all six classic Aspects (without Spiders and Spears) and a Warlock as a support class. Warlock should work quite similarly to a Sorcerer and Dark Reaper to a Devastator but other classes will have a bit less equivalency. I think the current plan is to have Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons as being the tactical classes (ie. able to capture points). And yeah, they'll be a nightmare to balance - there's nothing like Swooping Hawks in other factions, Striking Scorpons will be the only class at launch to use stealth (with the possible exception of elite ork Kommando class), and Banshees -while generally filling the same function as ground assaults do now- will have some unique abilities (their shout is supposed to work a bit like Devastator's suppression, there was some talk of them being able to deflect bullets with their swords etc.).


And it turns out that at launch only the three current vehicles are planned - bikes/buggies (despite having variants in the cash shop) will be implemented post-launch.
 
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Aothan

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it is primarily the Mark of Nurgle that is the apparent source of balance issues, every few days when I read through the Steam forums the mention of Chaos imbalance issues relates to how the aforesaid feature is making some encounters decidedly one-sided. This is not all that different from what happens when facing a Nurgle faction on DoW II, if a player is not ready for the early defensive abilities the Chaos marines have they will quickly find themselves unable to keep their first area. Although this is in itself is not an outright imbalance issue it does point to the problem with implementing concepts without regard to how they will play out. There are many issues combined here, such as the difference in total number of points, and without this balancing feature how different units and abilities will balance within a very different genre

Elder could easily experience similar issues, either being underpowered by way of not being able to move into combat for want of armour and health, or rather, by having superior range and other abilities being overpowered in an fps..

the multiple starting units for the Elder faction sound good though I hope this diversity won't lead to over-specialisation either, where players have to work very specifically with others or be all too easily weakened by simpler tactics from other players and groups
 

Aothan

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that's my reasoning behind some of the Elder units becoming overpowered, Eldar are typically fast and effective, or have range and power and thus in a fps this kind of design could easily lead to issues of balance (or counterbalance problems no less)
 

Caim

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Out of the six main Aspect Warriors three of them (Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers) have a good chance to kill a Space Marine with their preferred method of combat. The other three are better suited towards fighting Orks.
 

TedNugent

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I have a question to anybody that's played the beta. The Power Fist looks clunky as fuck.

This makes me worried because Orkz only have Power Fists in melee unless you want to use Choppaz/Big Choppa. I don't want the glorious Power Klaw turned into a glorified tank punching device. I want to krump some Space Muhreenz.

Please confirm that this weapon doesn't suck in the anti-infantry role. Thank you.

That said, maybe they'll have Burna Boyz with a Power Weapon altmode like the tabletop :cool:
 
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Two hits with the powerfist is enough to fuck somebody over. Its only issue is that you need to git gud and hit the target, 'cause if you miss then you'll be punished for it. Severely.
 

TedNugent

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How long does it take to swing, it looks like it takes like about a full sec to power up

Seems like you'd just be able to interrupt the swing and chop the shit out of them with a chainsword before they get the punch in.
 
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Heh, nope. The charge attack takes a while but only morons would try using that against non-distracted infantry. What kills you (if you suck) is the delay between attacks.
 

TedNugent

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Question: Is there parry-riposte that gives you an attack opening like in Chivalry Medieval Warfare.

If I parry chainsword-fag, can I then counter-punch his rectum.
 

Mangoose

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that's my reasoning behind some of the Elder units becoming overpowered, Eldar are typically fast and effective, or have range and power and thus in a fps this kind of design could easily lead to issues of balance (or counterbalance problems no less)
I was kidding. Lascannons are not to be used on infantry.
 
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Question: Is there parry-riposte that gives you an attack opening like in Chivalry Medieval Warfare.

If I parry chainsword-fag, can I then counter-punch his rectum.

Well sure. Everybody gets a parry wit ha built in riposte... and once they fall prey to that they're staggered for a couple of seconds giving you enough time to screw them over.

Donno if there are any heavy weapons that can break the parry yet. Guess I'll find out eventually.
 

Mangoose

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I want to play as the Blood Ravens chapter... and kill steal everyone.

(The execution animation is perfectly long enough for a lascannon snipe... Which means I can killsteal a teammate's execution :lol::lol::lol:)

Aothan The Lascannon works by maintaining your crosshairs on the target for several seconds - if it leaves your crosshairs then you basically have to restart the "charging" - means you can't hit moving infantry with it. So it is fucking hilarious to use against someone that is not moving (which is their own fault).

Now, if I practice enough perhaps I will be able to start hit running targets trollolol. Once every few moon cycles I'll snipe someone in melee though.

But it's pretty pointless to use as non-anti-armor unless you're trying to be a waste of a player slot.
 

Caim

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So the lascannon is now a lazor you must charge before firing?

That is both lame yet makes perfect sense from a gameplay point of view. A perfectly accurate weapon capable of vaporizing any infantry unit it hits in a single shot would be OP as all hell.
 

Mangoose

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So the lascannon is now a lazor you must charge before firing?

That is both lame yet makes perfect sense from a gameplay point of view. A perfectly accurate weapon capable of vaporizing any infantry unit it hits in a single shot would be OP as all hell.
Yeah you can practically say it's charging. But to add to it, you MUST continue to keep your crosshair on your enemy. VERY easy against vehicles. Hard, and stupid to do against infantry unless they're bad and you just want to be a dick.

Plasma Cannons also have to be charged.

I forget if it was like this in Space Marine, but in that game, Lascannons were instant shot and WERE the snipers of the game. Stalkers I actually use for support to weaken an enemy to take down, or kill someone that's vulnerable, and the like. Rarely do you actually make a kill on someone at full, because you'll need a heashot and they'll just back out of the way. On the other hand, Stalkers are tactical and if you're anywhere near skilled, it's completely easy to dodge any heavy weapons that could hurt you. Lol at when people try to Plasma Cannon me when I'm poking at them with Stalker bursts.

I've also realized armor is weaker in the back, not sure about sides. I think the Lascannon could be much more effective against armor, it takes too many shots to take one down, maybe even 5 shots. I mean it's definitely useful if they can't find you, but if takes too long, even from the back. Plasma Cannon, powered melee, and melta bombs seem to be the best way, but Lascannons really need to be more powerful against armor. Well, table-top wise.

---

But currently, Aothan, there are no terrible balance issues right now. Nurgle vs Ground Assault is just Space Marines complaining about one and the CSM complaining about the others. Like it's very hard to kill a Ground Assault when firing my Predator at them. And I see many more Ground Assaults than Nurgles (I play random). They're both useful. Also, Sorcs and Apoths are continually getting tweaked. They added (re-added) a new Sorc spell with the complete intention of taking it out if it's too overpowered.

However, I agree that Eldars are gonna be harder. On the other hand, I still feel like the base 3 classes (quick assault, tactical, heavy weapons) will be balanced. Like they would be as fast, as strong and vulnerable, as quick, etc. As the current races. I can't think of any other way that is smart. You know, Dire Avengers = Tacticals, Dark Reapers = heavy weapons... just that quick melee assault will be difficult because of fluff) Still it'll be the specialists past the first three that'll be hard to balance. Vehicles, eh, I'm sure they'll tone down faithfulness to fluff and tabletop so they are more equal in strength than.

Besides that there is precedence that things can be balanced by looking at the variety that you see in Planetside 1/2.

Honestly, I share the same worries you have. But the only thing I can do is wait to see what happens. For you, if you haven't bought the game, I would say that you are making the correct decision in waiting to buy. I'm just a fanboy.

Edit: What I mean is that if the devs are good, they will balance it well. If they are bad, they won't. The only way we'll know is when the game is released.
 
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Mangoose

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Question: Is there parry-riposte that gives you an attack opening like in Chivalry Medieval Warfare.

If I parry chainsword-fag, can I then counter-punch his rectum.

Well sure. Everybody gets a parry wit ha built in riposte... and once they fall prey to that they're staggered for a couple of seconds giving you enough time to screw them over.

Donno if there are any heavy weapons that can break the parry yet. Guess I'll find out eventually.
The problem with the parry (Defensive Bash) right now is that it can be used any time, even while being attacked and it negates all melee damage during the blocking/parrying part (which I'll callStep 1). And then they hit back with the Bash (Step 2), which may be too unnoticeable currently so it's hard to notice to roll away.

What I thought of just now is a way to make the Defensive Bash work but also give the Attacker a way to avoid it via good timing.It is based on the "clang" system, where the "stronger" weapon beats the "weaker" weapon:

Make the "Step 2 Riposte" the weakest attack in terms of clanging.

Example: When someone hits you after the blocking stage, if you time it right you can overpower their actual "stun bash" just like a Power Axe will out-clang a Chainsword.

Then, to counterattack the fact that the Attacker can simply spam Fast Attack and always overcome the clang:

The "invulnerable" block/parrying section slightly stuns the Attacker if used during that period. What would happen is that if you attack when he is in the block/power-up stage of a Defensive Bash, you will basically be unable to "out-clang" the "Step 2 - Riposte."

---

Probably bad example:

Good timing:
1) You notice enemy charging up Defensive Bash
2) You refrain from attack while he does that
3) Once the enemy does his attack, you hit them, negating their attack.

Bad timing:
1) You notice (or not notice) the enemy charging up a Defensive Bash.
2) You keep attacking, which prevents you from attacking for a couple seconds.
3) The defender can now fully execute the stun riposte because (Step 2) prevents you from "interrupting" the Bash part of the Defensive Bash.

---

So Defensive Bash still works, yet it can also be overcome. If the Parry is mistimed, you're fucked. If the Attacker mistimes, they're fucked.
 

Aothan

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But currently, Aothan, there are no terrible balance issues right now. Nurgle vs Ground Assault is just Space Marines complaining about one and the CSM complaining about the others.

the forums are replete with issues about Chaos, namely the Mark of Nurgle effect, and few players including those typically playing Chaos (besides the usual 'get good') claiming otherwise. It is a common problem with Chaos and other armies in rts (both Mark of Chaos and DoW II) where designers make Chaos the 'strong' army by definition of being able to move straight ahead, and other armies are 'balanced' because in theory they can use strategy to their advantage. The disparity speaks for itself when any player can and should strategise, and yet the onus is always on other armies to use strategy whilst Chaos (etc) points and moves to much better effect

this is not counting the abilities that, as the game community progresses, exacerbate just how powerful an already all purpose army can be

so if they are already making one unit almost unstoppable unless the other player is that much better, the Chaos player makes particular mistakes, or certain circumstances prove decisive, then the usual balance issues are at hand

I see it as a starting phase in any case, since the game is still in development, the real issue is how readily the developers address these issues.
 

Mangoose

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But currently, Aothan, there are no terrible balance issues right now. Nurgle vs Ground Assault is just Space Marines complaining about one and the CSM complaining about the others.

the forums are replete with issues about Chaos, namely the Mark of Nurgle effect, and few players including those typically playing Chaos (besides the usual 'get good') claiming otherwise. It is a common problem with Chaos and other armies in rts (both Mark of Chaos and DoW II) where designers make Chaos the 'strong' army by definition of being able to move straight ahead, and other armies are 'balanced' because in theory they can use strategy to their advantage. The disparity speaks for itself when any player can and should strategise, and yet the onus is always on other armies to use strategy whilst Chaos (etc) points and moves to much better effect

this is not counting the abilities that, as the game community progresses, exacerbate just how powerful an already all purpose army can be

so if they are already making one unit almost unstoppable unless the other player is that much better, the Chaos player makes particular mistakes, or certain circumstances prove decisive, then the usual balance issues are at hand

I see it as a starting phase in any case, since the game is still in development, the real issue is how readily the developers address these issues.
Steam forums are idiots. There's an official forum.

And, no, Nurgle are not better at moving ahead than SM Ground Assault, who can withstand my Predator shots pretty well and pretty much can block infantry weapons with their Storm Shields. Nurgle's power is having more health but no regenerating armor. Both are pretty good. TBH I've seen Ground Assault (Storm shield units) play quite tactically by using a shield wall to protect units behind them.

BTW, the Mark of Nurgle "effect" is limited to a SINGLE class. It's not a spell you can put on any unit. It's a melee Plague Marine or whatever. No other class can get a Mark of Nurgle.
 
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Yes, well without the mark of nurgle being what it is the "traitor" assault units would be utterly worthless. If space marine players had any fucking minds in that pink slurry that they call a brain they'd use those INDESTRUCTIBLE shields to form a shield wall which would let them advance with ease.
(Yes, I am aware that one overcharged plasma glob would put an end to that charge but that's balance).

The only other thing I can see people bitching about is the sorc getting a ranged heal. Well... as good as that heal is it isn't enough to pull somebody out of the fire entirely (it'll just put them in a perpetual cycle of getting up, getting downed, getting up, getting downed) and since sorcs are forced to enter melee if they wanna kill shit so they can't really wait for the battle to die down before rezzing the survivors. Apothecaries, on the other hand, can contribute to the fight by using their bolters and then heal everybody up in what little time there is between fights.

The problem here isn't that chaos is overpowered, the problem is that people are FUCKING STUPID AS SHIT! But then again, they picked Space Marines so them being a bunch of dumbasses is pretty much a given.

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