People don't know how to strategize in any manner, anyway. Can't really take into account the opinions of people who suck at Nurgle or suck at Ground Assault or suck at Apoth or suck at Sorc, or whatever.
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I'm an UltramarineYes, well without the mark of nurgle being what it is the "traitor" assault units would be utterly worthless. If space marine players had any fucking minds in that pink slurry that they call a brain they'd use those INDESTRUCTIBLE shields to form a shield wall which would let them advance with ease.
(Yes, I am aware that one overcharged plasma glob would put an end to that charge but that's balance).
The only other thing I can see people bitching about is the sorc getting a ranged heal. Well... as good as that heal is it isn't enough to pull somebody out of the fire entirely (it'll just put them in a perpetual cycle of getting up, getting downed, getting up, getting downed) and since sorcs are forced to enter melee if they wanna kill shit so they can't really wait for the battle to die down before rezzing the survivors. Apothecaries, on the other hand, can contribute to the fight by using their bolters and then heal everybody up in what little time there is between fights.
The problem here isn't that chaos is overpowered, the problem is that people are FUCKING STUPID AS SHIT! But then again, they picked Space Marines so them being a bunch of dumbasses is pretty much a given.
Aothan
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the general advice being given is that the effective health from Mark of Nurgle is making them too effective with all other aspects (player skills, circumstances, etc) being approximately equal
and the generally advised solution appears to be toning down this effect, outside of playing the game, these are problems I've seen before so I'm somewhat familiar with what these issues may actually represent
but I am still waiting to see what happens with Eldar, and now for that matter, if these types of balance issues are going to become all too common, I've played enough instances of Warhammer over the years to know that developers can often let these issues go on for extended times. Perhaps the different format and immediacy of balancing game design will ensure balance is more likely to be improved over time
and the generally advised solution appears to be toning down this effect, outside of playing the game, these are problems I've seen before so I'm somewhat familiar with what these issues may actually represent
but I am still waiting to see what happens with Eldar, and now for that matter, if these types of balance issues are going to become all too common, I've played enough instances of Warhammer over the years to know that developers can often let these issues go on for extended times. Perhaps the different format and immediacy of balancing game design will ensure balance is more likely to be improved over time
Stereotypical Villain
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I'm an Ultramarine
One shade darker and you'll be a night lord. COME MY BROTHER! JOIN US!
Zerginfestor
Learned
oh shut it you bastards, you're making me want to buy the damn game already ;~; Damnit, now I wish I had the game when it was on sale.
Disclaimer: I'm not praising the game. I'm simply clearing out misconceptions and wrong facts.
Again. Only one class has the Mark of Nurgle. None of the other classes have the Mark. The only comparison you can make is comparing the Nurgle class with the Stormshield class. And the Nurgle class will fall when I shoot from a distance whereas the Stormshielder blocks like a faggot.
But really they're two sides of the same coin. One has a lot of extra health. The other one has a shield that blocks almost everything, which yes will happen passively depending on the angle. Both have access to same weapons and consumables.
What you should be worried about is how the fuck the Eldar are going to do with rapid melee assault, because again their jump units are ranged whereas the melee units are ground.
Besides that, in table top the Eldar are NOT faster and more effective. They simply have units that are much more specialized than other races. Still, none of the specializations have to do with speed, IIRC. Hell, Space Marines can rapid fire while advancing. Read the codices. If you want to see fast and speedy you're looking at Dark Eldar. I think the only things speedy about the Eldar are their vehicles, which can turbo boost.
You're talking about Warhammer strategy video games, which are meant to heavily differentiate races. And don't include most of the units in actual tabletop.
Implying that people are good at self-reporting their skills. Never noticed a single person complaining about the Nurgle class.
Again. Only one class has the Mark of Nurgle. None of the other classes have the Mark. The only comparison you can make is comparing the Nurgle class with the Stormshield class. And the Nurgle class will fall when I shoot from a distance whereas the Stormshielder blocks like a faggot.
But really they're two sides of the same coin. One has a lot of extra health. The other one has a shield that blocks almost everything, which yes will happen passively depending on the angle. Both have access to same weapons and consumables.
What you should be worried about is how the fuck the Eldar are going to do with rapid melee assault, because again their jump units are ranged whereas the melee units are ground.
Besides that, in table top the Eldar are NOT faster and more effective. They simply have units that are much more specialized than other races. Still, none of the specializations have to do with speed, IIRC. Hell, Space Marines can rapid fire while advancing. Read the codices. If you want to see fast and speedy you're looking at Dark Eldar. I think the only things speedy about the Eldar are their vehicles, which can turbo boost.
You're talking about Warhammer strategy video games, which are meant to heavily differentiate races. And don't include most of the units in actual tabletop.
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Still is, they fucked up one day, lol. 80% now, 90% when it goes into beta, IIRC.
Zerginfestor
Learned
Warhammer video game (Dawn of War, to be specific) was terrible in balance. Dawn of Eldar was real, and it was a real pain in the ass to deal with those fucking dweebs. Still is! "find the webway gate" is by far the most frustrating thing ever, and don't get me started on their builder unit, which made Necrons so obsolete in 1v1 matchups.
TedNugent
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What? Where the fuck is my 3++ invuln save?
LOL. Fucking NO.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/663570.page
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/05/40k-jetbikes-not-wraithknights.html
Everything has fleet and they can take jetbikes as troops that can jump-shoot-jump with 36 inch strength 6 weapons. 12 inch movement range, 24 inch turbo boost. You can also J-S-J which means you can move 6 after shooting so effectively something would have to get within 42 inches to even shoot them, basically meaning 48" range models such as long fangs or lootas. That's their baseline troop, scoring unit.
Also, their Monstrous Jump Creature became a Gargantuan Jump Creature. It has J-S-J and 12 inch movement range with ranged D weapon. So you can move 12 inches, fire 24 inch range D weapon, then jump back 6 inches.
Hang on, I had to actually open up my rulebook just so I could read you how retarded this was.
Eldar Jet bikes can turbo boost in the shooting phase, moving up to 36". Even if you don't, you can move up to 2D6 in the assault phase, even if you shot or arrived by deep strike. They also fucking ignore all terrain lol. It's just a total laugh and a half when vehicles move 6 inches and infantry move 6 inches lol. Vehicles can move 12" if they "flat out," which means they can't shoot and infantry that disembark can't move that turn. Infantry can move 6" and one single D6" in the run phase if they elect not to shoot. So infantry move an average of 6" if they want to shoot or 9.5" if they want to be sitting ducks for the entire turn. Transport vehicles basically move 12" a turn and do nothing other than move. Meanwhile Eldar can move 12, then move 2D6" with their baseline troop choice and ignore all terrain, or move 36" and forgo shooting.
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Fucking control points everywhere yeah.
I enjoyed DoW2 even if it was more popamole. It wasn't really an RTS anyway, more of a RTT.
They're not doing bikers as control point capturers. Unless you can dismount. Right now only Tacticals can capture points, and probably the equivalent will be Dire Avengers, whose advantage in tabletop is IIRC being able to spam shurikens right after dropping off their Wave Serpent. Oh and whatever spell their sarge wants to use.
Lol wat. Honestly sorry I'm only familiar with 5th edition. Anyway, I don't think there's anything like that. 27 said they've only mentioned Wraithguards, and I imagine Wraithlords would be the highest they'd go.
Hopefully.
What edition is this, lol? I didn't even know Eldar had a jump creature.
Yeah, but they don't compare to Nob Bikers bro. Actually the Saim-Hann build has its own weaknesses. Lootas, for example, are a staple. (At least for me). Long fangs I believe are also. But anyways I've never seen anybody go Saim-Hann competitively, IIRC.
And I did mention the Wave Serpent movement, fag.
Just realized though, it's a shooter so there's not gonna be any RNG. It'll be up to the attacker whether they can hit the Wave Serpent (as turbo boosting gives Eldar craft better dodge, or whatever it's called)
In any case, I'm seriously going to be surprised if they make a huge difference in speed/durability/strength between the main three classes. (1) The all-around riflemen who can capture points, (2) the fast and maneuverable melee(?) assault, and (3) heavy weapons. I mean, (1) would be Dire Avengers, (2) is the one I have no idea about, and (3) would be Dark Reapers. If there are differences I doubt they would be more significant than the factions in Planetside 1/2. For balance's sake.
In this game the flavor seems to come from the support characters besides the main three. And those are gonna be the main balance issues.
Edit: In any case, go open your Dark Eldar rulebook and check out the real speed.
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Aothan
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the first three pages on Steam's discussion pages have multiple threads on balance issues, the majority of which are discussing the Mark of Nurgle and to a much lesser extent whether the Sorcerer's ability is too versatile
it is the total effect of this class' quasi-invulnerability that becomes the issue, regardless of which other units are involved. Eldar, as mentioned, rely on Fleet of Foot, among other abilities that make for greater mobility and speed
Aothan
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much changed in DoW II
Zerginfestor
Learned
So I saw, it seems more balanced now, though I do miss the huge wars I would do with DoW. It was fun..long as I didn't have Eldar in a 2v2, or was bought enough time in a giant map FFA (played as Imperium of Man. Fun as hell to rush the tech of Guardsmen, grab as many control points as I could, and have grenadiers and heavy weapons team on the field. Only thing that took me down then was pesky Chaos players dropping a HORDE of Horrors on my base whenever I pushed out. So annoying.)
IT'S STEAM FORUMS. Have you ever read a Steam forum on any other game? It's ridiculous.
On the Sorcerer's ability, they specifically said they are put it in and are completely ready to patch it out next patch based on feedback.
It's friggin in alpha and they want feedback.
And finally, this is the forum you should be reading: http://forum.eternalcrusade.com/
And don't think it's fanboys. There are a shitload of complaints. Including from me.
it is the total effect of this class' quasi-invulnerability that becomes the issue, regardless of which other units are involved. Eldar, as mentioned, rely on Fleet of Foot, among other abilities that make for greater mobility and speed[/QUOTE]
The Storm Shield is also quasi invulnerability. Did I not say that it happens often (not saying all the time) that I can't kill a Storm Shielder running in the open with a Predator - aka the Main Tank?
The Eldar, as mentioned, do not HAVE to have Fleet of Foot in the game.* The game already misses a SHITload of units that are in codices. Who the fuck knows, maybe Swooping Hawks will be more melee oriented than in the codex. And if you wanted a completely faithful Chaos faction, you would have Khorne Berserkers, Runic (whatever) Marines, Noise Marines, Cultists, Marks that you can put on every unit, etc., etc.
Next, Space Marines can rapid fire WHILE moving. In other words at a medium range, they can move at a decently normal pace while shooting something like twice their rate of fire. In fact Space Marines very much tend to be the OP (or rather, easy to get into and play in a strong manner) class simply because Games Workshop wants people to get into the game as Space Marines.
Please don't comment on Codex rules if you don't read the Codices and only hear bits and peaces.
Finally, yes, balance is and and always will be an issue. I do worry about it. But I'm not going to completely predict it will fail. It's in alpha, and they are busy implementing all the assets before they can even balance everything. How can you balance things that are not even in game yet? That would beta phase, btw.
Patch notes that you can read ON STEAM:
It's a simple test.
The developers want feedback. In alpha. Why is that a bad thing, especially when they are intentionally ready to take the spell out if it is hated?
It's a simple test.
The developers want feedback. In alpha. Why is that a bad thing, especially when they are intentionally ready to take the spell out if it is hated?
Well you know, what? This game is a shooter, not a strategy game, and there's a pretty good chance things will be balanced in terms of it being in a different genre.
You understand that strategy games are INTENDED to have severe differences among armies/races, right? And shooters are NOT.
Only if the developers are stupid (which they very might be) would they make huge differences without consideration for balance in terms of a shooter.
I mean look at Planetside 1/2. There are non-negligible differences between the races. Yet in practice, those differences don't make a significant effect.
Stereotypical Villain
Arcane
I don't see what the problem with stream of corruption is. It hardly deals any damage and while it tracks I'd say that using your HEALING SPELL would be a better choice for group fights than providing a minute boost to damage dealt per second.
Now, if they add Doombolt as an aimed AoE spell with a slower travel time than plasma bolt and much lower damage? I could get behind that. It'd fall under the role of a support spell whilst still feeling like a proper offensive spell (suppression and all that) buuuuuut... that idea kind of feed into the Q_Qfest about the sorc being "too versatile". My honest opinion? The sorc isn't versatile. It's a squishy melee unit that can hardly support a squad unless it is consigned to the role of a heal bot... and there are flaws with that concept as well (as I said before).
(Disclaimer: I play a sorc 90% of the time so I may or may not be a little bit biased)
Now, if they add Doombolt as an aimed AoE spell with a slower travel time than plasma bolt and much lower damage? I could get behind that. It'd fall under the role of a support spell whilst still feeling like a proper offensive spell (suppression and all that) buuuuuut... that idea kind of feed into the Q_Qfest about the sorc being "too versatile". My honest opinion? The sorc isn't versatile. It's a squishy melee unit that can hardly support a squad unless it is consigned to the role of a heal bot... and there are flaws with that concept as well (as I said before).
(Disclaimer: I play a sorc 90% of the time so I may or may not be a little bit biased)
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Aothan
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these issues are also on the official forums, on the first page of General discussion, which should not be all that surprising
otherwise, many of the comments are speculating about what will or will not be intended design, as it stands there are already certain differences in terms of abilities, and fps games are not just about different character models so we could expect there to be specific thematic differences between armies possibly including movement speed, health, range etc
also, I can only suggest a little perspective, I don't know why you are taking some of the points raised as though it were a personal fault, all I have said is there are apparent balance issues, pondered a bit about the usual design directions found in Warhammer games, and said I'm anticipating the Elder release, there is no reason for this to be regarded as a matter of personal differences
Aothan
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I am somewhat relieved players don't use the Sorcerer more often in DoW II (most players do not select the Sorcerer because of the immediately obvious strengths of the other commanders), because very rarely I have to wonder 'where are all the Chaos units' only to suddenly note they have teleported behind my formations -_-;
Uh, the main issues on the official forums are about melee combat, defensive bash, optimization, etc. There is not a single topic with the word "Nurgle" in it. I'm looking at it right now. Maybe they're in the "Founder's Lounge" or something you can't see.
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Do you realize that I've been repeating that the main three classes for each race are meant to be very similar, whereas the other, (currently 2) support classes are the flavor ones? The Mark of Nurgle class is a support class, not a main class (again, those three are Tactical, Jump Assault, and Heavy Weapons)
Do you also not read this thread and see that I have been speculating Eldar balance issues also?
However, do you realize speculation is not the same thing as criticism, which occurs after balance issues are mostly taken care of during beta. Not to mention it's fucking easy to balance the Nurgle class: You decrease the amount of health it has.
Do you realize the game is in alpha stage, and there is no given date for going to beta?
Because there are legitimate criticisms (like the ones I just quoted - where, btw, one of the threads was started by yours truly), and there are stupid criticisms.
Have you played Planetside 2? If not, go get it, and tell me well how each race is balanced even though there are differences such as one race having hovering vehicles, the different races vary in terms of gun rate of fire versus gun damage per bullet.
And the other point is that you're looking at Warhammer video games, which only include something like 25% of all the units in tabletop. Are there Dire Avengers (the Eldar version of Tactical Marines) in DoW2? No. There are civilian Guardians that are weak as hell and purposefully used in DoW2 instead of the other in order differentiate the races.
After that, do you realize that in DoW1 and 2, units are built in squads which vary in number of characters across different races, or units cost different point values? You can't do that in an FPS, because you have to have an equal number of players per team (besides Free2Waghh). So obviously, the differences between the races in an FPS are anywhere as significant as in an RTS. Or do you really think they're gonna force some people to play Cultists while others play Chaos Marines? C'mon, now. Obviously the design choices of a game where every player plays a single character are going to be very different from a game where a player controls a whole army. Unless you somehow have a player playing 5 characters at once.
TLDR comparing the design choices of an RTS with the design choices of an FPS (TPS) is retarded.
Edit: And honestly I have no idea what you're talking about, because I find Space Marine Ground Assault units way more annoying than Mark of Nurgle characters. Why? Because I can take down a Nurgle player easily from range while they're running at me, whereas a guy with a Storm Shield blocks everything I throw at him. Exaggeration here, I don't find either one more OP than the other. Well actually it is quite true that the Storm Shielder can survive quite a few shells from my tank. Whereas I've never seen any Chaos unit do the same.
Yes, I have both a Space Marine character and a Chaos character and I let it randomly choose which one to play when I go find a server.
Oh, I have no opinion about it really, because I haven't tested it yet (nor do I care lol).
I'm just saying the developers are literally ready to take it out next patch if people complain too much about it.
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Also there's a big chance that the whole melee system is going to be revamped. So again, speculation is the best you can do, because design choice hasn't even been settled yet. Because the game is in alpha. Which is why the fundamental mechanics are being criticized right now, not balance between specific classes. Where, again, you can make the Mark of Nurgle class weaker simply by decreasing its health.
Aothan
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it is on the first page of General discussion, the title being "Mark of Nurgle is OP", but there is also a new post that is of interest:
http://www.pcgamer.com/first-look-at-eternal-crusades-eldar-and-the-warhammer-mmos-future/
the discussion is about balance, and by some extension design philosophy and how these ideas guide game development, originating from the same source material, for that matter I have not argued with you, if you would trace the posts in this thread you will see that I have been talking about present (presently perceived) balance issues as with intended army concepts and how this will eventuate
anyway, I recommend the linked article (which was posted on the forums), it is not entirely promising about an imminent release but their focus for Eldar as the next release appears to be in that direction
Yeah, and it's not in the Founder's Forum, where people who actually have the game can post in.
And secondly, again, the advantage of the Mark Of Nurgle class is that it has a very high HP (and has no regenerating armor/shield). That's it. The class has no benefit compared to any other classes except for the HP. It has the same weapon selection. It has the same consumable selection. It has the same grenade selection. It has the same mechanics.
You don't even know WHY the class is OP. It's because it has too much HP. Understand?
The problem is that you keep bringing up the computer RTSes, where a player controls many units, and compare that to a shooter, where a player can only control one unit.
Design philosophy is completely different for both. All of the classes right now don't even play like how they play in real tabletop. Because they're designed with the understanding that this is a shooter (well, shooter/melee).
In fact, there is no such thing as a Melee Mark Of Nurgle Marine unless you customize a friggin regular Chaos Marine unit to be like that in tabletop. You do remember that the only Nurgle units in DoW2 were ranged Plague Marines right?7
Jesus Christ I mentioned I was worried about Eldar balance like 5 pages ago in this thread. I don't quite care about any article when the devs talk to forum members directly in the forum. Especially when I already expressed that it is one of my biggest concerns in the first place.
Besides that, you do realize that speed is a number that can be changed if the balance is too far off, right? Armor is, too. If the differentiation is too much, then shit can be tweaked. In fact, we don't even know how much faster they want the Eldar to be. 1.5x? 2x? 1.01x? All we can do is speculate. There is nothing to conclude until at least the end of beta.
Not to mention, again, fundamental mechanics like melee, again, the actual players want to be redone. Those issues are what matters at this current moment.* Not shit that can be balanced just by changing a number.
*For example, there is this "clang" mechanic that people are very ambivalent about. They also added a "defensive bash" that the majority of the people don't like (and I created a thread about).
The people that complain about "this class is more OP than another class" are the same people that complain about the game having low FPS... in alpha... when half the faction assets aren't even in game yet.
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Aothan
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I think so one way or another, and regarding differences in games this happens in more ways than one, yet it is not really the point first made, which is not that they will transfer specific stat differences and all else but rather deriving a conceptual basis, as explained concerning Chaos design theory and how this is 'balanced' around theory of other armies using 'strategy'
i.e. Chaos can run forward as an effective form of 'strategy', 'as they should' and everyone else should be more effective using elaborate 'strategy', this leads to highly theoretical forms of balance that don't play out all that well
but that aside, it is indeed a time of waiting to see what eventuates, it is a good time for these balance issues to be at the fore because it remains to be seen how the developers, and the community, will respond to perceived matters of balance
well this discussion has varied between whether the issue of balance is even being discussed, whether certain elements make for a balance issue, and then ideas about if there will or will not be army differences involving movement speed and whatever else, however there is no reason for any of these particular ideas to be taken as points of disagreement rather than discussing how these ideas might have a bearing on game design, present and future
the article was provided because it is one of the more recent releases from the developers involving future plans for the Eldar, there is some information in there which sounds interesting and many of the early images of the concept art look quite good as well
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