Fate of the Middle Class RPG

[Lhynn]

What you are saying isn't controversial. It's just retarded.

 

[vivec]

Next article title:

Portfolio management for Middle Class RPGs.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

If we're talking about a major leap in gameplay, the names that come to mind are System Shock 2, Deus Ex and Morrowind. Very open gameplay. They came up with the concepts Infinitron is talking about. Often copied, never surpassed.

Would I want more of that? Hell, yes!

Is that going to happen? Unlikely.

 

[Manmower]

PoE's crafting is not that bad, it is very strategic and CnC like.

he actual games had small budgets and were made by teams that HAD to play it safe because if they didn't, they could forget funding anything else through KS.

You people are the equivalent of a battered wife. No matter how many times you get the shit beat out of you, you still keep coming back. Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.

Shadowrun games were pretty fun.

True, but they could've been so much more. A lot of unrealized potential there, both narratively and mechanically.

 

[hpstg]

PoE's crafting is not that bad, it is very strategic and CnC like.

he actual games had small budgets and were made by teams that HAD to play it safe because if they didn't, they could forget funding anything else through KS.

You people are the equivalent of a battered wife. No matter how many times you get the shit beat out of you, you still keep coming back. Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.

Shadowrun games were pretty fun.

True, but they could've been so much more. A lot of unrealized potential there, both narratively and mechanically.

So, were the games risky? They were not? Did that matter? All strong opinion and no reasons given just makes you look more and more stupid.

 

[Lhynn]

Shadowrun games were pretty fun.

True, but they could've been so much more. A lot of unrealized potential there, both narratively and mechanically.

This is a bunch of nonsense, they already kind of pulled a miracle with that budget. People asking for more are p. insane given what they were working with. The talent they got on their art and writing departments is praise worthy.

 

[hpstg]

Shadowrun games were pretty fun.

True, but they could've been so much more. A lot of unrealized potential there, both narratively and mechanically.

This is a bunch of nonsense, they already kind of pulled a miracle with that budget. People asking for more are p. insane given what they were working with. The talent they got on their art and writing departments is praise worthy.

No no, the money was really too much. All the people who haven't even developed a text editor said so!

 

[Alex]

Thought this thread would be about an RPG where you try to fight communism.

 

[Lhynn]

Thought this thread would be about an RPG where you try to fight communism.

Thread is retarded, its sentence is slow death by derailment. So go ahead and make it about one, hypothetical or otherwise

 

[Mustawd]

It was kind of a weird premise. Still don't quite understand Infintron's points all that well.

 

[Infinitron]

It was kind of a weird premise. Still don't quite understand Infintron's points all that well.

From the OP:

What's interesting to me is the idea that the "middle class RPG" as a whole has lost some of its comparative advantages.

I'm reasoning (spitballing, really) about the factors behind people's lack of excitement with what should be an exciting time for them.

For a decade, The Codex said "We want isometric party-based RPGs back. We want isometric party-based RPGs back. We want isometric party-based RPGs back." That desire seemed to be so strong, that people should have been willing to overlook many flaws in any new isometric party-based RPG. Yet the games are here, and clearly many people haven't been able to overlook those flaws. Some of them even think these games are horrible and should never have happened.

What does that tell you? It tells you that maybe, when it comes down to it, they didn't want isometric party-based RPGs back so badly. And if that's the case, what kind of RPG do they want? What kind of RPG would make them go "Yeah, I don't care that this game has flaws, because this game is the kind of game that I want RPGs to be like, it takes the genre in the right direction"?

 

[Lacrymas]

The fuck are you talking about? The ones we got just aren't GOOD. They are the same popamole shit, but with a different design spin. When 2-3 people dev teams are beating the "old masters" at their own game you know you have a problem. Hell, there are still NWN modules coming out that are incredibly good and those are usually 1 man projects. I've been re/playing a lot of older games recently and almost all of them are better than the Kickstarter RPGs, including D:OS. If your logical center is "party-based" then no, it doesn't have anything to do with that. Why would it? Instead of 1 character you are controlling more, big whoop.

You know the answers to your questions - be like UR and AoD (in a sense), additional characters optional.

 

[mutonizer]

What does that tell you? It tells you that maybe, when it comes down to it, they didn't want isometric party-based RPGs back so badly. And if that's the case, what kind of RPG do they want? What kind of RPG would make them go "Yeah, I don't care that this game has flaws, because this game is the kind of game that I want RPGs to be like, it takes the genre in the right direction"?

Tells me that the isometric party based RPGs from "before" were better than the crap shit they've been making now?
Tells me that they shouldn't want to be "old school" by trying like looking old school, but by putting some fucking passion back into their fucking games, some backbone, some fucking soul. "Good old games" weren't trying to be anything hip but the best they could be for the time within a given genre, that it understood and respected, even when filled with humour and whatnot.

How anything done today any better? Writing? Bah, bunch of wannabe fan fiction writer bullshit who are mostly so formatted and terrified about so many taboo topics it could be one hive mind writing everything.
Technically? they should be ashamed of the products they putting out today on that front. I understand limits coming from Indies because of budgets but AAA? Where the fuck are the engineers blowing everyone's brains out with new technical shit that nobody thought was doable....Instead we get what? The Twitcher 3? DA:I? Wtf...
Graphically? Woopyfuckingdo! Could you stop humping my graphic card for a second and start on my bloody CPU who's been sleeping at 5% usage for years now?

All in all, old school has nothing to do with isometric, party base, blobbers and all that shit. Just have some fucking balls, respect your players intelligence and raise the fucking bar, gimme something I'd be proud to see kids play today. That's what I want. That's old school.

 

[Mustawd]

For a decade, The Codex said "We want isometric party-based RPGs back. We want isometric party-based RPGs back. We want isometric party-based RPGs back." That desire seemed to be so strong, that people should have been willing to overlook many flaws in any new isometric party-based RPG. Yet the games are here, and clearly many people haven't been able to overlook those flaws. Some of them even think these games are horrible and should never have happened.

What does that tell you? It tells you that maybe, when it comes down to it, they didn't want isometric party-based RPGs back so badly. And if that's the case, what kind of RPG do they want? What kind of RPG would make them go "Yeah, I don't care that this game has flaws, because this game is the kind of game that I want RPGs to be like, it takes the genre in the right direction"?

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

How's that old adage go? "You can never go back home" or something like that? Let's face it, some of the same developers we have entrusted to make these old school games have had to re-learn how to make them. In the process there's been a bit lost in translation. Meanwhile, we've gotten good efforts from some devs who have been making old school games for a few years now (Iron Tower, Styg). And as the interview with the lead writer of PoE shows, basic lessons like how to properly write prose are having to be re-learned. It's not an easy process, and it makes sense that their first go at it produced less than stellar results. Same thing applies to combat encounters and overall pacing.

Plus, like I mentioned before, there's a clear sense that the devs are inserting casual/modern elements on purpose to not only appeal to the kickstarter crown, but to have financially viable products that can appeal to a larger audience. And I think it's pissed people, like those who post on the 'dex, off a bit.

What I DONT really understand is the codex's reaction to all this. It's as if they've forgotten how long ago a proper isometric and deep cRPG was made. Yes, disappointment is fine as is criticism for its flaws. But people on here have been talking like the devs intentionally sucked at making these games. Plus, a lot of people also seemed genuinely surprised that this was the result.


Anyhow, I tend to think the next cycle of games will be better and more old school. D:OS 2 seems to be shaping up nicely and might blow it out of the park with a good GM mode. Tranny Tyranny is also exploring some interesting themes, has much shorter play times which should reduce filler combat, and seems to be a bit of fresh air with all the Forgotten Realms-type fantasy we always get. There's also hope that PoE2 might correct some of its predecessor's flaws much like one can argue BG1 was improved on with BG2. inXile's Torment also looks great and a huge plus that it's turn-based. Let's not forget the new blobber Bard's Tale, which I cannot wait to play.


All in all I think it's premature to say we really don't want these types of RPGs. It's just that we want better ones than what we've gotten, and will bitch and moan until we get them. I hardly see it as a rejection of these types of games. Plus, it's a lot easier to like The Witcher, which is in its third iteration and doesn't carry the expectations of nostalgia from your childhood.

 

[Mustawd]

I'll also add that if you want to be worried about anything, I'd worry about these dev studios "pivoting" away from old school roots little by little. You see that a bit with Larian and the romance crap (but to be fair their previous games already had that element IIRC) or with Obsidian and it's "what the hell is the point of playing then?" story mode crap as well as infinite inventory stash.

Personally, I am a bit concerned with some of the statements and the overall tone from Feargus. I just get a general feel that they're constantly looking for how to open up their games ot larger markets. It's as if they're a dev working in a niche market that can't wait to stop being in a niche market.

At least inXile brought back Bard's Tale and made Torment and W2 turn based. Yes, there are romances in D:OS 2 but my understanding is that they can be ignored. But if Obsidian came out with some casualized POS that was made for consoles? Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[Telengard]

I'm reasoning (spitballing, really) about the factors behind people's lack of excitement with what should be an exciting time for them.

For a decade, The Codex said "We want isometric party-based RPGs back. We want isometric party-based RPGs back. We want isometric party-based RPGs back." That desire seemed to be so strong, that people should have been willing to overlook many flaws in any new isometric party-based RPG. Yet the games are here, and clearly many people haven't been able to overlook those flaws. Some of them even think these games are horrible and should never have happened.

What does that tell you? It tells you that maybe, when it comes down to it, they didn't want isometric party-based RPGs back so badly. And if that's the case, what kind of RPG do they want? What kind of RPG would make them go "Yeah, I don't care that this game has flaws, because this game is the kind of game that I want RPGs to be like, it takes the genre in the right direction"?

For something with an audience the size of BG, there's going to be a lot of different fans, and those different fans are going to all want different things. Unless you do an exact copy, someone somewhere is going to be pissed at whatever you leave out, even the tiniest little thing. And even if you do do an exact copy, the fans who wanted something new will be pissed that you just made a copy. Nostalgia dredges are a lose/lose situation for a dev. Cept for initial funding, of course.

There is no such thing as a consensus here. But if you want to find out why the bulk of complainers don't like something, you can do a distillery. Take the 800 pages of complaints in a megathread and distill each entry to one title word. 'It would have been so much better if they had done [insert BG D&D reference here].' Distilled, that becomes 'd&d'. Once you do that for every entry and graph the results, you will find that 99% will be in the d&d category. So, you discover that had the game been d&d, 99% of the anger would evaporate in an instant, and 800 pages of anger becomes 8. Still a number of pissed-off people, but without the backing of the large d&d superfan base.

On the other hand, for a dev, signing up for d&d in its current state is one of the stupidest decisions imaginable.

 

[mutonizer]

On the other hand, for a dev, signing up for d&d in its current state is one of the stupidest decisions imaginable.

The team of PoE, using 3.5D OGL (or DDN) in the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance or Dark Sun settings sounds pretty fucking good to me. As you said, 99% of the bullshit that's wrong with PoE gone instantly since they'd have 1) a stable system that just works and 2) a setting that's established with names people can fucking pronounce without trying to be new age californian hipster know it all little shits.

 

[Mustawd]

I personally want to see a rework of something ToEE-like.

 

[Maggot]

There is nothing wrong with romances in videogames. They just happen to be in a lot of shitty ones.

 

[Lhynn]

On the other hand, for a dev, signing up for d&d in its current state is one of the stupidest decisions imaginable.

The team of PoE, using 3.5D OGL (or DDN) in the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance or Dark Sun settings sounds pretty fucking good to me. As you said, 99% of the bullshit that's wrong with PoE gone instantly since they'd have 1) a stable system that just works and 2) a setting that's established with names people can fucking pronounce without trying to be new age californian hipster know it all little shits.

Maybe, but its hard to tell, because PoEs biggest failing is that its boring. Shit writing and bad systems could have been forgiven if it was interesting or fun to play. But its so fucking banal, nothing worth experiencing or remembering happens in the 60+ hours it takes to beat. That in itself is an accomplishment of sorts i guess.

 

[mutonizer]

I personally want to see a rework of something ToEE-like.

Sad state of affair when a rework of an almost 15 years old game would actually raise the bar

That said, the new Temple+ stuff the dudes have been putting out is pretty good. I've always re-played part/all of ToEE at least once a year since release but really enjoying this latest run.

 

[Mustawd]

There is nothing wrong with romances in videogames.

wut?

Joined: Mar 30, 2016

Oh ok.

 

[Lacrymas]

Romances are always creepy, not because it's romance, but because it's always apparent that it's done to titillate in the most pathetic way possible. It's like having your mother choose your porn for you.

 

[Maggot]

There is nothing wrong with romances in videogames.

wut?

Joined: Mar 30, 2016

Oh ok.

I don't want RPGs to become dating simulators I just think a little romance subplot does not make or break a game. If Divinity OS 2 sucks it will not be because they added romances.

Romances are always creepy, not because it's romance, but because it's always apparent that it's done to titillate in the most pathetic way possible. It's like having your mother choose your porn for you.

I would hardly call a fade to black sequence titillating. I get what you mean with games like the Witcher where you go around collecting sex cards but it was also completely optional there too even they did try to force it on you a couple of times.

 

[Mustawd]

Romances are always creepy, not because it's romance, but because it's always apparent that it's done to titillate in the most pathetic way possible. It's like having your mother choose your porn for you.

Also, all the dialogue is probably written by some fat balding guy who doesn't know how to write a believable romantic relationship. So it's like the game is a proxy for dating him or something. It really creeps me out.