Feelings & Games

[Mark Richard]

You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on achievements, that they will fight to protect them. I just came from the GOG Mafia trilogy thread where folk are demanding achievements so they can gamify the experience of playing a game.

 

[Ocelot]

The most recent games I can think of are EYE: Divine Cybermancy and KOTOR. EYE has many flaws but it has good atmosphere and has it's own unique "feeling", one that no other cyberpunk or rpg/fps seems to have. Both KOTOR games also have a feeling that's unique to them, especially the first one. Too bad SW:TOR is nothing like KOTOR.

Most games before 2000s, after that they started to become soulless husks.

Remove the nostalgia goggles.

I've never bought the achievement craze. Do people really play a game motivated to collect all the achievements? I have never even paid any attention to them.

Agreed. Most games have a fuckton of grinding/story achievement and a couple of actually interesting/challenging ones here and there. A few games (usually good ones) have really good achievement lists but you'd never play them for the achievements anyway. Being an "achievement hunter" and playing games to 100% them is dumb.

 

[Modron]

I've never bought the achievement craze. Do people really play a game motivated to collect all the achievements? I have never even paid any attention to them.

Yeah I've never really been gotta catch them all type but I still think achievements are decline because they tend to encourage people to consult walkthroughs before they even play a game in an effort to avoid missing them. Another downside of achievements is they kind of killed off in game cheats and other fun stuff as a general trend.

 

[Ash]

Remove the nostalgia goggles.

On the contrary. Mount your monocle.

Old school absolutely dominates the past 1.5 decades of gaming in the vast majority of genres.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

When I was a kid, I used to play Age of Empires 2 to no end. I was also a big fan of tangerines and was often eating them while playing AoE 2. To this day, the smell of a freshly peeled tangerine immediately invokes memories of Age of Empires 2 in my mind. :D

 

[Shaewaroz]

When I was a kid, I used to play Age of Empires 2 to no end. I was also a big fan of tangerines and was often eating them while playing AoE 2. To this day, the smell of a freshly peeled tangerine immediately invokes memories of Age of Empires 2 in my mind. :D

This supports the interpretation that the feeling is produced by the atmosphere (the environment of feelings and sensory data), since something like the tangerines can also become a part of the spatial experience we take ourselves back to when we recall a certain game. We remember what it looked like, sounded like, smelled like and even tasted like when we were playing a certain game. We associate a spatiotemporal sensory experience with a particular game the same way we often associate certain moments in time to certain people.

I can still remember the moment (the feelings and spatiotemporal data) of the first time I played Bard's Tale 3 on C64 with my cousin approximately 27 years ago. We were sitting on their first floor bedroom floor on an old carpet. It was summertime, during a sunny afternoon when we should have been playing outside. Instead we had spread the C64 and all the pilates game casettes on the carpet with a 15'' TV and all the wires and controllers and disc drives that came with the C64. I can feel the worn out carpet pressing against my legs as I'm sitting on it with my legs crossed. I recall the warmth of the C64 transformer as I'm holding it in my hands. I remember the smell it lets out after heating during a multi hour long session. I recall the games title music and the few sound effects the game has alongside some sounds coming from the kitchen next door.

When I remember Bard's Tale 3, I return to this moment in time, and it makes me feel like a child again.

 

[Ezekiel]

I've never bought the achievement craze. Do people really play a game motivated to collect all the achievements? I have never even paid any attention to them.

I've heard gamejournos talk about buying trash games purely because it was easy to get achievements in them.

I wish I was joking.

It's true. There are "Achievement hunters" out there by the thousands. These absolute idiots purchase games just for achievements, including bad ones. They also refuse to buy games that do not have achievements. If playing the lottery is a tax on the stupid, achievements sucking in certain types is a tax on the absolute retarded.

Achievements are way more bad than they are good. Just one more facet of decline in the modern industry.

I've also seen people who refuse to get games because the achievements are too tedious and time-consuming and they don't want to leave things incomplete. Multiplayer achievements in single player games, for example. Yeah, it's pathetic. It's pretty rare that I give enough of a damn to collect all the achievements in a game. By that point, I'm already close anyway and it's a game I quite like. I don't know what this thread is about. This post just caught my attention.

 

[kintake]

When I remember Bard's Tale 3, I return to this moment in time, and it makes me feel like a child again.

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

 

[Nathir]

Yes I'm an atmosphere fag too. I will replay games just to re-experience that unique feeling. I've replayed Silent Hill 2 fuckload of times, as one example of many. I'm not much of a storyfag when it comes to games but atmosphere gets me.

Same here. Atmosphere is exactly the word I often use and is one of the most important thing in a game for me. Some of my favourite games for this aspect are: Diablo 1, SMT1, SMT3, Dark Souls, Planescape torment, HOMM3. A lot of modern games seem to not put much effort into it though.

 

[SophosTheWise]

I'm a big fan of Walking Sims (Dear Esther, Gone Home, Tacoma, Amnesia: AMfP, Firewatch). It's a bit like watching a long emotional movie, except because you are the center, the acting character, it makes it a lot more intense. I know many people here hate these games, but I couldn't care less. Piecing together the family history of Gone Home, enjoying the language in Dear Esther and Amnesia... These days I enjoy those kinds of games a lot more than 20+ hour games with repetitive gameplay loops.

Actually for me games are all about evoking different kinds of feelings. Everything else is somehow secondary. It took a long time for me to realize this, somehow. Walking Sims are at the forefront in that regard. But there are a few games that evoke similar feelings without being Walking Sims - Dark Souls, for instance. The less "gamey" a game feels, the better.

 

[Shaewaroz]

I'm a big fan of Walking Sims (Dear Esther, Gone Home, Tacoma, Amnesia: AMfP, Firewatch). It's a bit like watching a long emotional movie, except because you are the center, the acting character, it makes it a lot more intense. I know many people here hate these games, but I couldn't care less. Piecing together the family history of Gone Home, enjoying the language in Dear Esther and Amnesia... These days I enjoy those kinds of games a lot more than 20+ hour games with repetitive gameplay loops.

Actually for me games are all about evoking different kinds of feelings. Everything else is somehow secondary. It took a long time for me to realize this, somehow. Walking Sims are at the forefront in that regard. But there are a few games that evoke similar feelings without being Walking Sims - Dark Souls, for instance. The less "gamey" a game feels, the better.

I both agree and disagree with what you said here. I agree that walking sims rely heavily on the atmosphere they create as their main hook for captivating their audience. They are sort of like movies or novels with some control over the phasing of the story.

I also agree that the evocation of feelings is the ultimate goal of video games. However like I described above, I don't think games do this exclusively through audiovisual design. For instance the way player input affects the gameplay has a tremendous significance to the feelings a game creates. A game like Dark Souls benefits tremendously from it's user input design, in a rather similar way to something like System Shock 2. You're constantly on the edge of your seat and therefore approach every new area very slowly and carefully, listening to every little breeze of wind or a faint crack in the shadows, since those little sound can often mean the difference between life and death. Walking simulator cannot create any tension due to the lack of failure states and therefore does not put the players on the edge of their seats.

 

[agentorange]

Actually for me games are all about evoking different kinds of feelings. Everything else is somehow secondary. It took a long time for me to realize this, somehow. Walking Sims are at the forefront in that regard. But there are a few games that evoke similar feelings without being Walking Sims - Dark Souls, for instance. The less "gamey" a game feels, the better.

I have to completely disagree with the notion that walking sims, and games with minimal gameplay are best suited for evoking feeling. Those most evocative stories, the most dense atmospheres in games are those that exist in harmony with and arise around systems. For example Resident Evil, the feelings of claustrophobia and loneliness created by the design and visuals of the mansion are further pronounced by the gameplay mechanic of wandering back and forth throughout the maze like hallways; the feeling of omnipresent dread created by the music and narrative is made more pronounced by the managing of limited resources. Likewise the atmosphere of The Zone in STALKER relies upon the player's contacts and conflicts with fellow Stalkers, the careful observation of anomalies, the hunt for stashes and so on. The ambiguity of the plot and resolution of Silent Hill 2 are made all the more unique by the various endings which are determined by the player's actions throughout the game, including frequency of combat, health management, how the town is navigated, etc. Dark Souls, The Void, Quake, Siren, Nier, to name a few, the feelings and atmospheres created by those games hinges on what they do as games. Games have, as a medium, certain qualities which are unattainable by other mediums (which themselves have qualities unattainable by games, allowing them to excel at what they are meant for to a greater degree than a game) and the most defined feelings and atmospheres are developed when gameplay and aesthetic considerations exist in harmony.

 

[Silva]

I'm a big fan of Walking Sims (Dear Esther, Gone Home, Tacoma, Amnesia: AMfP, Firewatch). It's a bit like watching a long emotional movie, except because you are the center, the acting character, it makes it a lot more intense. I know many people here hate these games, but I couldn't care less. Piecing together the family history of Gone Home, enjoying the language in Dear Esther and Amnesia... These days I enjoy those kinds of games a lot more than 20+ hour games with repetitive gameplay loops.

Actually for me games are all about evoking different kinds of feelings. Everything else is somehow secondary. It took a long time for me to realize this, somehow. Walking Sims are at the forefront in that regard. But there are a few games that evoke similar feelings without being Walking Sims - Dark Souls, for instance. The less "gamey" a game feels, the better.

Yeah I can relate with that. Games are also emotions and feelings for me too. Everything is, actually. I can't watch a movie without "entering in it", for eg, and audio is always a big part of it.

Btw, have you played What Remains of Edit Finch and Senua Sacrifice? They are in that vein. I love both. There is also Nier: Automata, but it has a significant gameplay part that could distract you. If you endure it though, the game has some awesome emotional beats (it's got the greatest ending in recent memory imo).

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I also agree that the evocation of feelings is the ultimate goal of video games.

That statement is broader than yo momma. Anything and everything will conjure up feelings, if that's the ultimate goal you might as well just have the SPACE key flip the screen from a black to a white square, muh duality, muh choice, muh influence, muh triviality muhmuhmuh. The ultimate goal of vidya is value, as in being worth your time.

 

[wyes gull]

Tbh, SoC had so much cool areas that it's not even worth it to listen them all.

Audio. Just audio.

Alright then.
You reach the safety of the bar area after running away from a pack of wild dogs. It seems no more welcoming than the outside. You notice an alien sound and you follow it to a megaphone tied to the top of a pole.

Spoiler

And the Zone seems even more barren.

 

[Cael]

Spellforce: Breath of Winter.

The first time you played it, the music and the atmospherics of the cutscenes were attention grabbing. Then, if you are used to Order of Dawn, the way Breath of Winter threw you for a loop with alternative mission objectives (one of them was classic "light all 4 torches before the enemy can snuff one of them") to just kill everything and stomp on all buildings. And the ending cutscene and the music and THAT song...

 

[Silva]

Yeah, the Zone is the appex. Not the Abyss, the Von Braun, The City, UNATCO Island, nor Lordran.

The Zone.

 

[Parsifarka]

Hogwarts in the Harry Potter games made by KnowWonder feels like home. I guess as an adult it's not worth it playing them for the first time, since they lack any challenge, but just listen to this. Everything is so warm and cozy, even the enemies look sympathetic. It really struck as a world of wonder to which I return every winter.

I absolutely agree with Disciples being one of those games, it feels like playing Paradise Lost. I had never tried it until I bought it on a GOG sale last year, and for two months I would spend whole nights of the weekend, til dawn, with single malta in my glass and on the screen a genocidal campaign against demons, dwarves, undead hordes and angels. It's a very particular, very accomplished world: it feels desperate, melancholic and yet a stage for prodigious feats. Outstanding blend of visuals and sound.

Stronghold is remarkably good at this suggestive function as well, with an amazing soundtrack and the delightful detail of textures and animations, a perfect match with its relaxed pace (nay, I don't play Extreme) which throws you right over a Shakespeare's epic work.

Also, last monday a soft rain gently fell upon the patch of grass I was walking through; it was sunny, though, so the green was really vivid and the pearls of water awoke the fragances of Eden. Suddenly I stopped and realized I was feeling as I do when I play Heroes of Might & Magic IV, the soundtrack playing in my head.
Indeed, the whole M&M series deserves mention in this regard for things like the mistery of the cthulhian Fortress and the sublimity of the Stronghold in H3, or approaching Free Haven in Mandate of Heaven with this.
Particularly, it took me a long while to get the hang of the older games, but I would start Isles of Terra again and again just for the amazing feeling of Fountain Head, with the clear sky, the pure marble and the clear waters flowing as I imagine Trophonius' sanctum.

Spoiler

When retarded journos talk shit about games being art, they try to show them as mimicking known forms of art and totally miss this feeling which is I think absolutely characteristic of video games, unique to them. I don't think it's just the music, but its mixture with peculiar visuals and the pure repetition, a well known Freudian device, of simple actions (even if entangled in a more compelx scheme) with a pleasant outcome. Maybe it's just a glorified form of fort-da, but it feels like heaven and not any other medium can offer that.

 

[lophiaspis]

Walking simulator cannot create any tension due to the lack of failure states and therefore does not put the players on the edge of their seats.

Where is the failure state when Ravel asks you the famous question?

 

[Shaewaroz]

Walking simulator cannot create any tension due to the lack of failure states and therefore does not put the players on the edge of their seats.

Where is the failure state when Ravel asks you the famous question?

PST has a lot of failure states. You cannot technically die, but you still prefer to win/progress instead of losing battles and having to try again. Walking sims literally have nothing where you can fail.

 

[lophiaspis]

You're missing my point. There is no failure state involved in the most emotionally tense moment in PS:T. Hence your original assertion is false. If anything, a simulation composed purely of degamified interaction has greater potential for narrative and emotional tension.

 

[Shaewaroz]

You're missing my point. There is no failure state involved in the most emotionally tense moment in PS:T. Hence your original assertion is false. If anything, a simulation composed purely of degamified interaction has greater potential for narrative and emotional tension.

You make an interesting point, but I would like to explore the concept of tension a bit further. As I said before, games have more ways of creating tension that books or movies. The player is involved, his/her input matters in determining the outcome of events. In the example you brought up, tens of hours of gameplay with failure states has led player to that moment.I have never finished PST myself and therefore don't know how exactly this event plays out, but I presume the player doesn't know how his answer with affect the outcome of future events, correct? In that case, the tension is still built with a threat of failure. If the outcome of whatever answer the player gives is completely clear to the player throughout the entire conversation, your point may be valid - however I'm not sure how tense a moment can be without any kind of uncertainty or fear of failure.

The question of tension and failure in a broader philosophical context is an interesting one. I would actually entertain the thought that tension, in all of it's forms, is always produced by a perceived possibility of failure/harm. Why do we feel tense when we watch a thriller? Because the main character, who we often empathize with, is in danger of harm. Why do we feel tension while watching a football game? Because the team/player we're rooting for might lose.

Games let us be more involved to these events where the possibility of perceived failure is ever looming behind every click of a mouse. We're not only witnessing someone else struggle to avoid failure/harm, but we're active participants in the process of harm evasion.

Walking simulators do not take advantage of this unique ability of video game medium to be directly involved in the process of harm avoidance, which is the primary (if not only) source of tension. Therefore it cannot engage players as effectively as games that take full advantage of this unique capability of the video game medium.

 

[Tehdagah]

I would rather watch a movie.

 

[Silva]

You're missing my point. There is no failure state involved in the most emotionally tense moment in PS:T. Hence your original assertion is false. If anything, a simulation composed purely of degamified interaction has greater potential for narrative and emotional tension.

You make an interesting point, but I would like to explore the concept of tension a bit further. As I said before, games have more ways of creating tension that books or movies. The player is involved, his/her input matters in determining the outcome of events. In the example you brought up, tens of hours of gameplay with failure states has led player to that moment.I have never finished PST myself and therefore don't know how exactly this event plays out, but I presume the player doesn't know how his answer with affect the outcome of future events, correct? In that case, the tension is still built with a threat of failure. If the outcome of whatever answer the player gives is completely clear to the player throughout the entire conversation, your point may be valid - however I'm not sure how tense a moment can be without any kind of uncertainty or fear of failure.

The question of tension and failure in a broader philosophical context is an interesting one. I would actually entertain the thought that tension, in all of it's forms, is always produced by a perceived possibility of failure/harm. Why do we feel tense when we watch a thriller? Because the main character, who we often empathize with, is in danger of harm. Why do we feel tension while watching a football game? Because the team/player we're rooting for might lose.

Games let us be more involved to these events where the possibility of perceived failure is ever looming behind every click of a mouse. We're not only witnessing someone else struggle to avoid failure/harm, but we're active participants in the process of harm evasion.

Walking simulators do not take advantage of this unique ability of video game medium to be directly involved in the process of harm avoidance, which is the primary (if not only) source of tension. Therefore it cannot engage players as effectively as games that take full advantage of this unique capability of the video game medium.

Your theory is crap.

See, 99% of CRPGs allow save-scumming and therefore throw away any tension produced by fear of death. Yet, people still feel engaged in their stories.

99% of movies and books work on the expectation that their protagonists will be alive throughout and therefore throw away any tension produced by fear of death. Yet, people feel engaged in their stories.

The key, I think, is simply engagement, however the myriad ways it's achieved. It can be through the permadeath of rogues, a well told storytelling from a book, a movie scene that suspends disbelief, a well executed song, etc etc etc. Being subjective, it will vary wildly between people. Fear of death or of losing something valuable may be a factor (I admit being tense as shit first time in a Souls game for fear of losing all my souls to whatever was behind the corner) but is far from being the sole factor in the equation.

Edit: Oh and ironically, the slow burning jazz-like experience of PS:T is more akin to a Walkin Sim than anything related to fear of death or end-states. If one argues that Walkin Sims make bad games, the same should be said of PS:T.

 

[Shaewaroz]

Your theory is crap.

You're arguments are poopoo Sir.

See, 99% of CRPGs allow save-scumming and therefore throw away any tension produced by fear of death. Yet, people still feel engaged in their stories.

Only retards and idiots savescum. They choose to throw away tension for convenience. For the story part, refer to the next segment.

99% of movies and books work on the expectation that their protagonists will be alive throughout and therefore throw away any tension produced by fear of death. Yet, people feel engaged in their stories.

Storytelling 101 states that without conflict there's no story. Conflict means that there's a chance of something going wrong -> failure state. I've written my thesis about this stuff so come at me bro.

The key here is simply engagement, however the myriad ways it's achieved. It can be through the permadeath of rogues, a well told storytelling from a book, a movie scene that suspends disbelief, a well executed song, etc etc etc. Being subjective, it will vary wildly between people. Fear of death or of losing something valuable may be a factor (I admit being tense as shit first time in a Souls game for fear of losing all my souls to whatever was behind the corner) but is far from being the sole factor in the equation.

Engagement =/= tension, which was the topic of conversation. Tension is a means for creating engagement. Of course walking sims can engage players - otherwise no one would play them. They just don't do as good job at it as games where user input and other game systems are utilized to their full potential. Which was my original point, I believe.

I also used to question the value of such experience for the videogame medium, but I realized this medium offer possibilities that movies and books don't (like graphical immersion, improved agency, C&C, etc.) so I came to terms with it.

You're basically making my point here, you just don't realize it yet.