Game Date?

[Hazelnut]

I have to agree with Snails on this VD... (I started writing a hurried post last night before going to the pub, but I was sounding like a complete asshole, so I canned it)

Well, it's the Codex and most people here, including me, sound like complete assholes, so don't worry about it and don't can it next time.

Hehe, well I've no idea if anyone has noticed, but I don't change my personality just for the Codex, I'm just me. And that means I try not to be an asshole unless I want to be because something/one has pissed me off. There's far too much conformity on the Codex these days - you know, fit into the mold to be one of the boys so to speak. Well, as far as I'm concerned, fuck that! We're all angry cunts, given, but lets not all fall into the trap of Codexian stereotypes ourselves eh?

*steps off soapbox*

It's probably a good time to actually think about how much difference redesigning the town layouts will make to people who might buy the game.

Huge difference. Take Planescape, replace all the locations with "Spiderweb in 3D" stuff and see what happens.

Hmm, but this is ignoring the focus of AoD somewhat isn't it? If you want to follow that argument to it's logical conclusion, why not redo the graphics again? Get the shiny next-get shit in there! Seriously though, we're talking about atmosphere rather than gameplay here aren't we? How important is redoing the settlements really given the focus of the game? As I've already said, I don't give a shit personally because that's not what I'm after from the game - but of course better is always, well, better. The concern I have is that it's a load more work for very little gain. Why not just do some tweaking to the worst bits or something given the priority in the grand scheme of things?

Overall, I want to make the best possible game I can [vs. "hey, I made a game and it works" or "not bad for the first game"]. I must confess that I don't understand the "ship something out now and do better next time" logic. I think that's the reason why so many games suck these days.

I. Agree. 100%!

But, then you'll never create the perfect game, and you have to prioritize what's important and not compromise on that, what's irrelevant (like next-gen gfx), and what's in between and worth x amount of effort and no more.

When you've got a finished product and then start rewriting things because you think it could be better, that kinda gives me a warning signal.

Understandable and there is a good chance that you are right. Then, of course, there is a good chance that I'm right too, and using my table analogy, there is a big difference between a "finished product" and a good product.

I missed the table analogy - so I'm off to find that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hehe, well I've no idea if anyone has noticed, but I don't change my personality just for the Codex, I'm just me. And that means I try not to be an asshole unless I want to be because something/one has pissed me off. There's far too much conformity on the Codex these days - you know, fit into the mold to be one of the boys so to speak. Well, as far as I'm concerned, fuck that! We're all angry cunts, given, but lets not all fall into the trap of Codexian stereotypes ourselves eh?

Sure. What I meant is there is no need to can something simply because it's not nice. In this particular place it's acceptable to rip someone's ass apart if you feel that it's justified.

Hmm, but this is ignoring the focus of AoD somewhat isn't it?

I used PST as an example *because* it's not famous for its cutting edge visuals. It's a text-heavy game known for its dialogues and characters (the dialogues again). So let me ask you again, did the art make a difference? If it was a Spiderweb game, would you have enjoyed it as much?

If you want to follow that argument to it's logical conclusion, why not redo the graphics again?

I'm not talking about the graphics, but about the art.

The concern I have is that it's a load more work for very little gain.

I see it as a huge gain as it creates the atmosphere.

But, then you'll never create the perfect game...

I didn't say "perfect", I said the best possible game.

 

[Elwro]

Take your time, VD. There are dozens of good games one could be replaying till death. No need to hurry.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Hehe, well I've no idea if anyone has noticed, but I don't change my personality just for the Codex, I'm just me. And that means I try not to be an asshole unless I want to be because something/one has pissed me off. There's far too much conformity on the Codex these days - you know, fit into the mold to be one of the boys so to speak. Well, as far as I'm concerned, fuck that! We're all angry cunts, given, but lets not all fall into the trap of Codexian stereotypes ourselves eh?

Don't worry, it's pretty easy to tell the angry cunts from the wannabes.

I used PST as an example *because* it's not famous for its cutting edge visuals. It's a text-heavy game known for its dialogues and characters (the dialogues again). So let me ask you again, did the art make a difference? If it was a Spiderweb game, would you have enjoyed it as much?

Really I think I noticed the visuals the most at the beginning. And yeah, they did set a nice atmosphere. After I got drawn in with the dialogue it didn't really matter much anymore. By Upper Sigil they failed to register. The layout of cities thing I think you really might be reading too much into. It's not something I ever really notice and others have said the same. If anything it becomes an annoyance because the few rows of empty "atmosphere" houses between Lord Foozle and Dink the Alchemist just mean you have to run around more.

I didn't say "perfect", I said the best possible game.

There's a difference? I mean I know there's a long-standing grudge here about pushing out games before they're finished, but there's a difference between making sure the combat fails to suck and worrying if the loremaster really belongs in the upper class district or the commerce district. It's good you're getting outside people to test the game and make suggestions, and if the combat is poorly balanced and unfun by all means adjust it, but it really sounds like you're starting to slip into navel-gazing when you start talking about the town layout setting a poor atmosphere. That's the shit you start to criticize when you already hate a game because it's not fun and looking for reasons to hate it becomes an end in itself.

 

[Kingston]

Indeed, VD. We can wait.

As for art direction, it makes a huge difference. Its a quite the important factor when creating atmosphere. As is sound (playing System Shock 2 for the first time and the sounds are intense... The atmosphere is so overwhelming I can only play it for an hour before having a break). You simply must have quality audio.

Succesful art direction has to make sense, as does level design. A blacksmith shouldn't be there just because you need one in the area. That's when you get the generic town that has a shop or two and some hub for quests. Are the shops really selling enough to still be standing? Why do the people still stay in the area? Is there enough military occupation for the blacksmith to be in business? The hows and whys are all important for a sensible background. Though you obviously know that.

 

[chaedwards]

A blacksmith shouldn't be there just because you need one in the area. That's when you get the generic town that has a shop or two and some hub for quests. Are the shops really selling enough to still be standing? Why do the people still stay in the area? Is there enough military occupation for the blacksmith to be in business? The hows and whys are all important for a sensible background. Though you obviously know that.

I disagree. The blacksmith is there because the player needs somewhere to spend his money so that he can upgrade his equipment, not to serve the needs of locked houses and NPCs with one line of dialogue. Just as a lot of the requirements of urban life are abstracted out of an rpg - latrines, junkyards etc - unless they're necessary, there's also no need to count the number of soldiers before deciding if the blacksmith is viable. Obviously there needs to be a nod towards fidelity, but it shouldn't come at the expense of gameplay. Snails put it well when he said.

The layout of cities thing I think you really might be reading too much into. It's not something I ever really notice and others have said the same. If anything it becomes an annoyance because the few rows of empty "atmosphere" houses between Lord Foozle and Dink the Alchemist just mean you have to run around more.

Ultimately, as long as the town isn't so silly that it jars the player, I'm not convinced the value added from the realism is going to outweigh the loss of enjoyment from making the player have to travel for longer to get where he wants to go.

 

[Jora]

I'm with Snails. Ensuring that combat is enjoyable is important. Goes without saying. Town layout is another matter entirely. No, art didn't really matter in Torment, because it was the music and the text that made the experience memorable. If gameplay is one of your strengths, you don't need to compensate it with great art direction or believable city maps and architecture.

Edit: since AoD isn't an exploration/item interaction game in the Teudogar and Ultima style, realistic surroundings are irrelevant to me. I think making the environment more interactive is a better way to increase "immersion" and believability anyway.

 

[Hazelnut]

Sure. What I meant is there is no need to can something simply because it's not nice. In this particular place it's acceptable to rip someone's ass apart if you feel that it's justified.

Oh, I have no qualms about doing it at all - although I often can't be arsed and leave it to better flamers. Thing is, it simply wasn't justified at all and was just coming out all wrong, hence the canning.

Hmm, but this is ignoring the focus of AoD somewhat isn't it?

I used PST as an example *because* it's not famous for its cutting edge visuals. It's a text-heavy game known for its dialogues and characters (the dialogues again). So let me ask you again, did the art make a difference? If it was a Spiderweb game, would you have enjoyed it as much?

If you simply mean if it had spiderweb style town art & design, with the rest staying the same then I probably would have enjoyed it almost as much - a very small difference possibly. Combat spoiled that game somewhat for me, as I seemed to have created the crappiest build possible, thinking it wasn't that important. Must give it a replay and not get stuck unable to pass some dangerous place I can't remember now... might have been somewhere under some other place. (jeezus I'm going fucking senile at 35!)

If you want to follow that argument to it's logical conclusion, why not redo the graphics again?

I'm not talking about the graphics, but about the art.

I don't think you got my point here. It was a facetious example to (try) to point out that it seems that you're considering investing significant effort for mere window dressing and (slightly) anhanced atmosphere, which is not what I understand the main focus of the game you're trying to do. From what you've said and shown us here about AoD makes me think that the town design wont be crappy after your first pass anyway, although I could be wrong and you may have done a completely shit job. I don't think anything other than actually playing the game and seeing these places in context of the gameplay will help any of us to give an useful perspective on the current quallity to be honest, so it's up to you and your PnP buds.

The concern I have is that it's a load more work for very little gain.

I see it as a huge gain as it creates the atmosphere.

Well you're quite possibly right. Or maybe you're simply falling into the perfectionism trap and can't be objective. Or maybe I'm just gagging to play your game so much that I cannot be objective about it.

But, then you'll never create the perfect game...

I didn't say "perfect", I said the best possible game.

Very commendable indeed, but lines have to be drawn somewhere about priorities otherwise it becomes Duke Nukem Forever! (a low blow, but you understand my concerns now I hope) Anyway, I'm really just trying to get you to think before you decide - at the end of the day it is, of course, your call.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Everyone saying to VD that he should take his time should please STFU, I want a good rpg to play this summer.

 

[Relien]

If I understand correctly you don't want to improve the overall graphics quality of the game, you just feel that some areas are notably less visually impressive or interesting than other ones. In other words the problem is inconsistency of the visual quality throughout the game, right?

If this is the case, then by all means take your time (sorry POOPER ) to balance it. You should stop then though, since I think I'm not the only one who thinks he could adapt to the current AoD graphics without any problems.

It's true that great art helps to create great atmosphere. But considering AoD will be pretty text heavy, I guess the dialogue and other text elements will play a much greater part in it and the visual influence won't be as big anyway.

As long as the graphics will be consistent (and considering its current quality), it'll be pleasant to look at. And most importantly, it won't ruin the mental gameworld image created by the textual means, which I guess will be, as I said, a major player here.

 

[Jasede]

Everyone saying to VD that he should take his time should please STFU, I want a good rpg to play this summer.

No one cares about you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If I understand correctly you don't want to improve the overall graphics quality of the game, you just feel that some areas are notably less visually impressive or interesting than other ones.

Correct.

From what you've said and shown us here about AoD makes me think that the town design wont be crappy after your first pass anyway, although I could be wrong and you may have done a completely shit job. I don't think anything other than actually playing the game and seeing these places in context of the gameplay will help any of us to give an useful perspective on the current quallity to be honest, so it's up to you and your PnP buds.

Once again, here is the starting town. It is an in-game model and it appears exactly as shown here (plus the "floor", of course). It's basically a 3D equivalent of the Spiderweb town design and it looks fucking horrible. It's hard to point at the right upper corner and say "this here is the shady area of the town" with a straight face, which is why I want to split the towns and do a better job there.

...but it really sounds like you're starting to slip into navel-gazing when you start talking about the town layout setting a poor atmosphere.

I'm not talking about the layouts, I'm talking about something that looks better than the picture above. Something that actually resembles a town a bit. Again, I'm not going for "wow, it looks so real that I think I can actually live there" crap, but for "ah, so that's what this place looks like. I see now" design.

 

[Fez]

I can see what you mean now after looking at that 3D render of the map, VD. It's not looking good. It is somewhat like some of Spiderweb's towns in 3D. Obviously there is a great deal more to an RPG than that, but if I was asked if that alone looked good as it was then I'd say no.

 

[Claw]

The amount of vapor in the air is getting intolerable and I am choking on my own tongue as I write.

Good. I hope by the time you read this, you're already dead.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Didn't we talk about that exact town's layout a couple of years ago or something and tell you to change it? I guess it is a little cheesy and smacks of rather anachronistic zoning laws for a laughably small "town". Then again I'm sure a lot of real world town layouts would seem improbable except that's how things developed. Will anyone really even notice it that much closer to the ground as I'm guessing the actual view will be? Is anyone ever going to see shady area quadrant, rich area quadrant, poor area quadrant, etc. and giggle hysterically at what a joke your game is? Probably not. PST had the same "now we're entering the poor area" town layout, but did it really detract from the game? I honestly never really thought about it until now. If you can flip it around in an afternoon I guess there's no real harm, but really if we're talking a significant investment of time you probably are going to get more return on something really silly like reworking the graphics in a new engine... again.

 

[Elhoim]

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4159/slumsia2.jpg

This reminds me of NWN, and not in a good way

 

[Jasede]

Ugh, I haven't seen that before.
Hip to be square? :wink:

 

[Mayday]

That town is too small to have city walls. 10 times too small.

 

[hiciacit]

Didn't we talk about that exact town's layout a couple of years ago or something and tell you to change it?

Yeah, I seem to remember something like that to. Didn't you say that the town's layout was motivated by it being an old army encampment or something, and hence the clear remains of a grid-like structure?

 

[Dementia Praecox]

That town is too small to have city walls. 10 times too small.

ZOMG it's not reulistic!!1 You're the first to notice, I'm sure. It's an abstraction. Just like every fucking town in every fucking RPG, since ever. That being said, it clearly need some improvements on the aesthetic side.

What do you think about using several artists for different types of art? In encounters and such, like in Darklands. I know I'd much prefer differing styles of art over none at all. It help setting the mood in a great and effective way. Seeing as you're such a Darklands fan, I'm probably preaching to the choir here. Obviously, sucky art can have the opposite effect, but if you had offers from 40+ artists in the past, some of them are bound to be able to make something acceptable. How much art do you have at this point? Is it only that concept art you use on the web page?

Oh, and don't rush it, VD. We can wait.

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

We can wait.

We can? I would really like to know what you're playing to hold you off.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

We can? I would really like to know what you're playing to hold you off.

I'm sure you've played every good game out there. I sure as hell haven't and I'm more than able to fill my time. Obviously with games lesser than what AoD will be, but that will just enhance the "OMG WTF AWESUM"-feeling we get when the magic of AoD is unleashed upon us. Right now I'm playing Daggerfall and Dwarf Fortress. In a week I'm going to Cuba for a month, and when I get back I'll be so starved for e-entertainment that I'll play just about anything the next six months.

 

[hiciacit]

One of you guys should get a different avatar.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Careful now or he'll take yours.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That town is too small to have city walls. 10 times too small.

It used to be a fort.