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Game Date?

cardtrick

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Vault Dweller said:
If you ask me, it's a fucking miracle that we made it that far.

QFT. You guys are an inspiration.

bezimek said:
Do you have or planing to have worldwide publisher ? Buying hardcore games in Poland are not easy task. Many good games are relased by Cenega. I would love to play original version of AoD. So could you answer my question ?

Well, if nothing else you could get the direct download version. VD has also talked in the past about discussions with publishers, but my understanding is that everything on that front is tentative until the game is finished.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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bezimek said:
@ Vault Dweller

I have one small question:

Do you have or planing to have worldwide publisher ? Buying hardcore games in Poland are not easy task. Many good games are relased by Cenega. I would love to play original version of AoD. So could you answer my question ?
Many publishers, including Cenega, expressed interest in securing rights for AoD distribution in different markets.

At the moment I'm curious to see how powerful digital distribution is as a games delivery tool, so I'm not discussing anything with publishers yet. I can assure you though that if someone wants to play AoD, I'll find a way to get the game into his/her hands, even if I have to mail it personally.
 

FrancoTAU

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Signing up for a publisher in Eastern Europe might be the way to go. I think you'll lose alot of customers just because they don't have a credit card or paypal. They'll probably just pirate it due to necessity.

You can squeeze the rest of us for the nice margins. ;)
 

Kraszu

Prophet
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May 27, 2005
Messages
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Location
Poland
Well for Eastern/middle Europe it is diferent becouse it is not so niche game (I man that you can go whit publisher on some part of the market and whit digital distribution on rest), so psychical marketing (game on shelf) will be important, it would make reviews (or bigger reviews instead of 1 page ones) in game magazines much more likely, no? Also that is first game so getting more recognition would be good for future if you will ever make a new game.

Personally I am interested on how game like that whit outdated grapchics would sell in "normal" distribution in Poland.
 

obediah

Erudite
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Jan 31, 2005
Messages
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Vault Dweller said:
It's your game, so I guess it's your right to follow countless other developers into the "perfect game"...
Because that's what the industry suffers from. "Perfect" games that were in development too long.

Classic VD. If you can't address my point, then just chop out words until it becomes a point you can address? The thing about the "perfect game" black hole is that perfect games never come out. Sometimes (like Grimoire) no games come out, and other times (like Battlecruiser) a miserable mishmash of bugs and unfinished features are released.

... but that's not what gamers want or need. We'd much rather have a stream of flawed but improving indie games.
I guess that's what Feargus thought when he started his slam-dank series. Gamers would rather have a steam of flawed games than a few "perfect" ones. We all know how that story ended.

What perfect games have you played lately? Troika released a series of very flawed gems, PtD was a very buggy gem, Witcher is a gem with some design flaws, NWN2 has more flaws than a Wal-Mart engagement ring, Eschalon is a fun if not terribly impressive throwback, and Vogels paint-by-numbers games are enjoyed by many gamers.

Iron Tower missed a great opportunity to release AoD as a modest little indie game...
... and then go out of business Zero-Sum style.

You have made $0 over the past 27+ months of delays (and at least 5 more). The first version of AoD might not have bought the teams a fleet of BMWs (or even 1), but it would have covered the cost of download bandwidth.

... and use the resulting feedback to make a second more ambitious game.
The market is unforgiving to indie games. While a real studio can make a game like Dungeon Lords and survive to make another Dungeon Lords game, we can't. Indies live or die by their first game. Considering that I really, really want to leave my job and start making games for a living, can you blame me for taking my time to do it right? It's not like I'm collecting pre-orders here.

Bullshit. Indie developers only live or die by their first game if it is released at the point where they are no longer willing to do it for free. Obviously your team has not reached that point now, let alone 2 years ago. And you've performed and discarded enough work to have released AoD and have a sequel as far along as AoD is now.

Part 2

obediah said:
As a business venture, it is a disaster. I found an announced demo release date of September 2005. Games intended to feed people rarely survive a 2+ year delay, and break even even less.
It's our first project. The development time includes switching to a new engine, customizing that engine, making mistakes, learning what works and what doesn't, becoming "experienced" for the lack of a better word.

I understand that a first project is almost always going to be rough. That is why nearly everyone strongly suggests a small first project. So the price paid to learn all those lessons is much less.

I stand by my two evaluations. As an after-work project, AoD's development history isn't so bad. The criticism you quoted clearly references the context of a business venture ( i.e. paid employees, looking for a profit).

To be brutally honest, he hasn't (with AoD) demonstrated the skills required to succeed in that sort of endeavor. I'm optimistic that AoD will be great game but the project has been managed poorly. Maybe VD has learned from AoD, and his next game will managed better. But as is, there is no way I'd hand him a bag of money to make a game.

A project leader delivers a high quality product on time and on budget....
What a load of crap. I haven't seen many software projects, including games, that were delivered on time, on budget, and in a "high quality" state). Hellgate London anyone? Bloodlines? KOTOR 2? Btw, what do all these games have in common? They were developed by very experienced teams working full time and knowing what they are doing.

Well again you cut out the paragraph where I explain some of the reasons game projects are rarely managed exceptionally. Uncompetitive pay, team turnover, unrealistic funding and demands from publisher, among other things. No project manager can foresee all publisher asshattery or other problems. but they can and should be the hard-assed difference between being a bit behind on Q&A and having everyone working 80 hour weeks 3 months after due date franticly slashing unfinished or problem features and coping with a bug list that isn't getting smaller.

Now, compare it to our situation. Nobody had any experience. Nobody worked on the game full time. We did it over the internet. If you ask me, it's a fucking miracle that we made it that far.

Calm down tiger. I didn't say you were incapable of such things, only that AoD doesn't demonstrate them. Maybe you have all the skills required to manage a funded, scheduled software project, but AoD is far from proof of that.
 

Ismaul

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obediah said:
I didn't say you were incapable of such things, only that AoD doesn't demonstrate them. Maybe you have all the skills required to manage a funded, scheduled software project, but AoD is far from proof of that.
I don't get how you conclude that AoD is badly managed. Your comparison just isn't appropiate for the situation. You don't compare AoD with "funded, scheduled software projects" with experienced teams woking full-time on it. You do it with the countless number of big mods or ambitious indie games that never see the light of day, even though they have a larger team than VD's. If anything, the fact that the team is at the point where they can step back and rework the whole thing to make it better is a testament to the good management of the project. It means they now know exactly what quality and amount of work they are aiming for, and are taking the right steps to do it. Really, there's a big difference between delivering a great game and a mediocre one with diluted potential. And doing so requires good management, which is exactly what we are seeing.


@VD
The course of action you've taken in developping the game is fine.

Personally, I'd rather wait for a game that will awe me and that I'll remember a long time, expecting the next games from the studio with anticipation, rather than a game full of unrealized greatness, like KotOR2 was. I don't play games to remember how time and money limitations can reduce intelligent creative projects to a shell of what they were envisioned. If VD can deliver a game reaching the level of Fallout or Torment in its own way, then it enters in the history of great games for me. Otherwise, it's just another Sith Lords, Bloodlines or Arcanum: while great in some ways and even greater in the minds of their creators, they ultimately fail to enter in the realm of greatness, the game experiences losing quality because of their too numerous flaws.

Also, VD doesn't want to make a heavily flawed gem. AoD is his baby, something he wants to be proud of. It's like raising a kid: you don't do it rapidly and say you'll do it better with the next one. You take your time and try and do it right the first time. He's not only making the game for you, he's making it for him. Unlike big companies that run "funded, scheduled software projects" and don't care about their game.
 

FrancoTAU

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Why so melodramatic? And why are you having such a spirited debate about something you know nothing about? How could you possibly know what's going on with them as a group of part time indy devs? After my family and a full time job, I hardly have enough to play games let alone make one.

I mean, VD could be a fucking complete idiot or an indy savant. How would we know? And is a 2 and half year dev cycle that bad for 4 or 5 part timers from literally all over the world? Plus, I don't think he had anybody besides Flashback until a year ago or so.

The only visible sign that we have is that VD has kept his 0$ per hour team together after all this time. They must believe in him, so i'm not sure why you're slammiing him. Usually these things turn out to be vaporware outside of one man teams like Eschalon and Spidersoft. If AoD bombs, his team splits up and starts bashing him and Iron Tower is no more than by all means you can put the boot to him.

I think you're perspective is messed up from being on the Codex during the whole process. It's made it seem really drawn out compared to the person who's just seen an update here and there on other sites.
 

bezimek

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Poland
Vault Dweller said:
bezimek said:
@ Vault Dweller

I have one small question:

Do you have or planing to have worldwide publisher ? Buying hardcore games in Poland are not easy task. Many good games are relased by Cenega. I would love to play original version of AoD. So could you answer my question ?
Many publishers, including Cenega, expressed interest in securing rights for AoD distribution in different markets.

At the moment I'm curious to see how powerful digital distribution is as a games delivery tool, so I'm not discussing anything with publishers yet. I can assure you though that if someone wants to play AoD, I'll find a way to get the game into his/her hands, even if I have to mail it personally.


Hey. Thanks VD for long and full answer.

btw. IMHO in Poland or in general East Europe many people will buy AoD if it will be relased by some good publisher.
 

obediah

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Ismaul said:
obediah said:
I didn't say you were incapable of such things, only that AoD doesn't demonstrate them. Maybe you have all the skills required to manage a funded, scheduled software project, but AoD is far from proof of that.
I don't get how you conclude that AoD is badly managed. Your comparison just isn't appropiate for the situation. You don't compare AoD with "funded, scheduled software projects" with experienced teams woking full-time on it.

*sigh* Read the thread before jumping in. I was responding to

Jora said:
VD said in a recent thread that he's sick of his current main job and is planning a full time career in indie business...said he'd like to administer two projects (by two teams) simultaneously in the future.

Real development schedules with teams, budget, and salaries. Many of the decisions made in AoD's development would have killed a game under those conditions - so I said we'll need to wait until VD tries it to know if he can do it.

Ismaul said:
I love eating VD's sperm. He is my god and his work is what will save the world. *gobble* *gobble* *gobble* He's very handsome and smart and smells of flowers. At night I dream he'll come to my house on a unicorn and whisk me away to his secret love nest.

What a bunch of vapid, fanboi shit. If all you want is to have VD's babies, go off to his new forum and seduce him there. Except for the grammar you might as well be on the ESF kissing ass.

Ismaul said:
Personally, I'd rather wait for a game that will awe me and that I'll remember a long time, expecting the next games from the studio with anticipation, rather than a game full of unrealized greatness, like KotOR2 was.

Whatever happened to the elitest codex? Everyone goes on about how flawed and inadequate AoD would have been originally, and how it should stay in development forever as long as it keeps improving. Did anyone else notice when the the AoD discussions shifted from gameplay design and combat mechanics to art effects, maps, interfaces, and other eye candy.

Ismaul said:
Also, VD doesn't want to make a heavily flawed gem. AoD is his baby, something he wants to be proud of. It's like raising a kid: you don't do it rapidly and say you'll do it better with the next one. You take your time and try and do it right the first time. He's not only making the game for you, he's making it for him.

That is all true. It's also a design paradigm that is not financially viable and usually doesn't even result in the polished gem of a game. It really is a testament to VD and the teams determination and the strong community involvement that the game is where it is today.

Unlike big companies that run "funded, scheduled software projects" and don't care about their game.

Most creative use of "evil" quotes evar! Development leads that manage their projects around making payroll certainly are the devil! :twisted:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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obediah said:
Vault Dweller said:
It's your game, so I guess it's your right to follow countless other developers into the "perfect game"...
Because that's what the industry suffers from. "Perfect" games that were in development too long.

Classic VD. If you can't address my point, then just chop out words until it becomes a point you can address? The thing about the "perfect game" black hole is that perfect games never come out...
It wasn't clear what you meant. As for addressing your point, what point? Your assumptions that I'm taking the Duke Nukem road?

What perfect games have you played lately? Troika released a series of very flawed gems, PtD was a very buggy gem, Witcher is a gem with some design flaws, NWN2 has more flaws than a Wal-Mart engagement ring, Eschalon is a fun if not terribly impressive throwback, and Vogels paint-by-numbers games are enjoyed by many gamers.
And that means... what? A compelling reason to release a flawed game?

You have made $0 over the past 27+ months of delays (and at least 5 more). The first version of AoD might not have bought the teams a fleet of BMWs (or even 1), but it would have covered the cost of download bandwidth.
Again, what's your point? Is releasing a game that covers the download costs an accomplishment these days?

And you've performed and discarded enough work to have released AoD and have a sequel as far along as AoD is now.
A poor, unpolished, but promising game? Absolutely. But that's not what I want to do.

I understand that a first project is almost always going to be rough. That is why nearly everyone strongly suggests a small first project. So the price paid to learn all those lessons is much less.
Well, what's a small first project? A dungeon crawler like Fate? Maybe.

I stand by my two evaluations. As an after-work project, AoD's development history isn't so bad. The criticism you quoted clearly references the context of a business venture ( i.e. paid employees, looking for a profit).
Paid employees? You are mistaken. We did pay to contractors, but the core team is working for free. Of course, if the game sells, they'll get paid, but right now they are working for free.

Well again you cut out the paragraph where I explain some of the reasons game projects are rarely managed exceptionally. Uncompetitive pay, team turnover, unrealistic funding and demands from publisher, among other things.
Well, everyone knows that Iron Tower pays top bucks and the funding is top notch. I'm running out of excuses here.

Many of the decisions made in AoD's development would have killed a game under those conditions...
Like what? Switching an engine? Delaying a game? Changing things? Did you know that when KOTOR was almost done, Bio took it to Lucas Arts and said "Look, the game is crap. That word count thing, it sucks. We are going back and we are going to rewrite all dialogues completely." Or Starcraft. You know that originally the game was basically WC in space, but Blizzard didn't like it and changed everything, from engine to design. I'm sure that "WC in space" Starcraft would have been an ok game and sold well, but Starcraft as we know it was a fucking masterpiece. Forgive me my arrogance, but that's what I'm aiming at.
 

pkt-zer0

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Messages
594
Vault Dweller said:
Like what? Switching an engine? Delaying a game? Changing things? Did you know that when KOTOR was almost done, Bio took it to Lucas Arts and said "Look, the game is crap. That word count thing, it sucks. We are going back and we are going to rewrite all dialogues completely." Or Starcraft. You know that originally the game was basically WC in space, but Blizzard didn't like it and changed everything, from engine to design. I'm sure that "WC in space" Starcraft would have been an ok game and sold well, but Starcraft as we know it was a fucking masterpiece. Forgive me my arrogance, but that's what I'm aiming at.
I think Black Isle's Torn is more like what obediah is trying to get at here.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
Torn was announced in March 2001 and canceled in July 2001. It was canceled because of the technical problems with the engine:

Feargus: We knew we were going to use the LithTech engine, which was designed for first-person shooters, but we didn't realize how many problems that would give us. We found it very difficult to cull polygons outside of our view zone, which we didn't expect. Our character system was infinitely more complex than it would have been in a shooter. We also had network code problems, because there was a lot of information that had to be transferred back and forth in multiplayer games. We were also developing during a time when LithTech was changing a lot, and every time we got a new version, a whole lot of stuff had to be redone.

Hardly the same situation, is it?
 

Jedi_Learner

Liturgist
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Messages
894
It's always funny to see you go on the defensive all the time. By all means, please continue.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Not as funny as you going nuts AGAIN. Jesus Fucking Christ, now what? Don't you think that deleting all your posts is a little bit childish?

As for me going on the defensive, do you not expect me to defend my project when people attack it?
 

Rulion

Liturgist
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424
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bath salt city
Jedi_Learner said:
It's always funny to see you go on the defensive all the time. By all means, please continue.
You act like his defense is unwarranted. Read what he's responding to. I don't even understand why anyone is arguing with him - he wants to release a good, polished game. Great. Flawed gems annoy me. This is his one big shot to make a name for himself. Makes sense. From my understanding, the game is very nearly done and just being tweaked. So...why are people arguing about how long it's taking? It's nearly over. We're going to end up with a great product. Cry me a river. People act like this is going to be the next DN:F or Grimoire.

If VD releases a great game that everyone loves, Iron Tower is going to get some recognition. And it's going to outlast the recognition a merely okay, buggy, somewhat lacking indie game would.

Plus, imagine VD releasing a shoddy game. He'd never live it down : )

I swear, you need to be on bipolar medication.
 

FrancoTAU

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Does no one remember Prelude to Darkness? The great but flawed RPG debut by an indy developer? The indy studio that folded after all the buggy and unpolished criticism?
 

Ismaul

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
obediah said:
Ismaul said:
I don't get how you conclude that AoD is badly managed. Your comparison just isn't appropiate for the situation. You don't compare AoD with "funded, scheduled software projects" with experienced teams woking full-time on it.
*sigh* Read the thread before jumping in. I was responding to
Jora said:
VD said in a recent thread that he's sick of his current main job and is planning a full time career in indie business...said he'd like to administer two projects (by two teams) simultaneously in the future.
Real development schedules with teams, budget, and salaries. Many of the decisions made in AoD's development would have killed a game under those conditions - so I said we'll need to wait until VD tries it to know if he can do it.
Oh. Is that what you said? And here I thought you said this:
obediah said:
As an after-work hobby, AoD is merely a frustrating example of software development pitfalls. As a business venture, it is a disaster.[...]
To be brutally honest, he hasn't (with AoD) demonstrated the skills required to succeed in that sort of endeavor. I'm optimistic that AoD will be great game but the project has been managed poorly.
So now you say all this "poorly managed" stuff refers to a game that doesn't exist made by a funded team under schedules when this isn't the case? Clearly you are confused. If talking about AoD, then you are wrong, as many have pointed out. If talking about future games, what you're basicly saying is that given AoD's work-as-hobby approach and management, VD isn't able to manage a full-time project. That's moronic. VD has shown good management with AoD as far as I can see, and while he has no previous experience with full-time projects, one thing his current experience does not hint at is him completely mismanaging a future project. So in both cases, your argumentation is pointless.



obediah said:
Ismaul said:
I love eating VD's sperm. He is my god and his work is what will save the world. *gobble* *gobble* *gobble* He's very handsome and smart and smells of flowers. At night I dream he'll come to my house on a unicorn and whisk me away to his secret love nest.
What a bunch of vapid, fanboi shit. If all you want is to have VD's babies, go off to his new forum and seduce him there. Except for the grammar you might as well be on the ESF kissing ass.
I didn't know that agreeing with someone and understanding the reasons for what he's doing implied getting down on all four and doing the deed. But maybe that's how they do it, where you live.



obediah said:
Did anyone else notice when the the AoD discussions shifted from gameplay design and combat mechanics to art effects, maps, interfaces, and other eye candy.
That's because gameplay was discussed and was to be implemented. We were at a point where the discussing was done, and VD had pretty much decided what he was going to do. Any further dissussions would require us to actually see the gameplay and test it.

That was different with graphics, as we were able to directly see what worked and what didn't, what we liked or not and give feedback on it. In a sense, screenshots allowed us to "test" the graphics. Also, graphics where an area where AoD clearly needed help, and benefited alot from the feedback. Do I have to remind you that AoD recruited its artist because of those discussions?



obediah said:
Ismaul said:
Also, VD doesn't want to make a heavily flawed gem. AoD is his baby, something he wants to be proud of. It's like raising a kid: you don't do it rapidly and say you'll do it better with the next one. You take your time and try and do it right the first time. He's not only making the game for you, he's making it for him.
That is all true. It's also a design paradigm that is not financially viable and usually doesn't even result in the polished gem of a game.
Huh? Wasn't that you talking about the "elitist Codex" just now? The idea that good games aren't financially viable is stupid and the Codex and VD have stood against it for years. It's idiots that don't give creative games a chance while invoquing finances that make the bland same-shit-again and good-but-rushed industry we have now. AoD, to be financially viable, has to be good. It has to provide something different from the mainstream and do it well. Otherwise gamers will just turn to the mainstream that has the same old shit with more shiney.



obediah said:
It really is a testament to VD and the teams determination and the strong community involvement that the game is where it is today.
Do I see you agreeing there and saying the same shit I said? I guess it's my turn to say:
obediah said:
I love eating VD's sperm. He is my god and his work is what will save the world. *gobble* *gobble* *gobble* He's very handsome and smart and smells of flowers. At night I dream he'll come to my house on a unicorn and whisk me away to his secret love nest.
 

Keldorn

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Creativity requires respect, space, time, patience and positive minimalistic energy, in order to fully realize it's tangible manifestational potential.
 

Jedi_Learner

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Vault Dweller said:
Not as funny as you going nuts AGAIN. Jesus Fucking Christ, now what? Don't you think that deleting all your posts is a little bit childish?

You assume too much. I deleted my posts on the Iron Tower Studio forums, whoopie fucking doo. Did my posts contribute to anything worthwhile? No. Will I be missed? Of course not, for Jedi_Learner is now associated with depression, sadness and bipolar. I couldn't continue to post there. Will you and a bunch of posters continue your manipulation of my actions and words? Accuse me of attention whoring again? Of course you fucking will. I know you don't like me, and you know I absolutely hate you. So enough of this drama over a fucking FAQ, let it end here. What a waste of time and potential.

As for me going on the defensive, do you not expect me to defend my project when people attack it?

I knew you would respond. And I knew that you'd manipulate my actions and claim I've gone nuts again.

Edit: This post scares me, I really was mentally disturbed. :(
 

Jora

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Jedi, your posts were OK. I don't think anyone was looking down at you when you started posting on the IT boards. :? Don't stress so much.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
Jedi_Learner said:
I couldn't continue to post there.
Why is that?

I know you don't like me, and you know I absolutely hate you.
You are completely fucking nuts, Jedi, but I don't dislike you or hate you. As for you absolutely hating me, good for you.

I knew you would respond. And I knew that you'd manipulate my actions and claim I've gone nuts again.
How else could your actions be interpreted? It's the second time you capriciously removed your FAQ. Why this time?
 

cardtrick

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I swear, Jedi is the most unique poster I've ever run across. After a while on the internet, you sort of feel like there's nothing new under the sun . . . but Jedi's particular brand of schizophrenia is one of a kind.
 

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