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GameDesign: Inventory

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Jan 7, 2003
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What kinda inventory models you like and why? Also, I'd like to know pros and cons, as you see them, for the following models:

Diablo - space restriction
Arcanum - space+weight restriction
Fallout - weight restriction
MW - weight restriction (different model)
BG/IWD - weight+max items restiction
KOTOR - no restrictions

I prefer the Fallout system, but lately there was some criticism, so I'd like to discuss these matters now.
 

Spazmo

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It all depends. If, like Fallout, BG or KOTOR, you're going to have tons of small quest items (usually holotapes, scrolls or datapads) that aren't strictly useful but should be kept, then it's kind of annoying to have all those one square items clogging things up. Space restriction (and technically weight restriction, assuming constant density in kg/square) in Diablo worked becuase that game was very loot-centric and thus needed to limit how much swag you could carry pretty strictly. But if your game doesn't have THAT much phat lewt, then just weight restriction works fine. Still, make it easier to navigate than Fallout.
 

DemonKing

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Dec 5, 2003
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I think any discussion of inventory should also cover paper dolls, since you'll be keeping quite a bit of your inventory there.

I think my dream system would be something like IWD2...plenty of slots, weight restriction (because it ain't very realistic that you can carry around 27 suits of Full Plate +1) but perhaps with small quest items kept seperately, or at least a key ring to stop keys taking up the same space as my Holy Avenger Battleaxe of the Dragon Lords +5.

For paper dolls I really liked the old M&M 6 & 7 systems (never got to #8) - half the fun was dressing up your guys in the most ridculous combinations possible. Also an option to die items/craft unique lookig stuff would be welcome, to ensure your PC's appearance has a personal touch.

I would hate to see something like Dragon Age inheriting the KOTOR system where you can never find anything because your inventory is so full of crap and is also totally ridiculous because your party of three can carry enough equipment to fill the sport's section of a major department store...I'm pretty sure the whole system was simplfied for the X-Box (and the kind of munchkins that play it) though.
 

Sol Invictus

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If the game is party based just get rid of the restrictions. It's a pain in the ass. The player can just imagine that they have a chest somewhere. On the other hand you could have a pet goblin who lugs around a big sack like Santa's helper.
 

Screaming_life

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I think alot depends on the game. You may have a prefered model for how you like inventory to be but something else might be better for gameplay.

Generally speaking then, i prefer weight and space restriction but also a limit on the type of spaces available. Either that or a limit on certain bulky items like weapons/armor etc.

But this would probably cause a few problems so would need to fit the right game.

Inventory management is very important - i don't like clutter and it's nice to be able to find what you're looking for!
 

Sol Invictus

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Why don't you go with Divine Divinity's item tabs and weight restriction? Divine Divinity had, by far, the best inventory management system ever designed. It only needed one thing to make it perfect: autosort.
 

bryce777

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It isn't realistic to carry around ANY sets of spare armor. That is a joke.

Also, armor and whatnot that is ON you should not count as much towards your weight limit.

Wearing armor is not usually so bad, but carrying around a big lump the size of your body that weighs 70 pounds is ridiculous. Caryying ten of them because you have 18 (00) strength is even funnier; you would be like a dung beetle carrying ten times your weight.

Honestly I don't care too much, so long as you dont have the stupid situation in BG where you have tons of miniscule objects that fill up your carrying slots, or like in geneforge how your stupid 'living tools' are a pound each and you have a carrying capacity of like 10 pounds after you put armor on.
 

Sol Invictus

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Would you pick realism over fun? I wouldn't.

The point of having 18/00 Strength is that you've the strength of 10 men. You're Hercules.

Min/maxing has always been a problem caused by power gamers. As stated in the D&D rules, most people have an average strength of 9!
 

EEVIAC

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I think space restricitions are pointless. I like to keep all the trinkets from adventuring no matter how useless they are. If you do go with an inventory system with space restrictions, at least include a room in an inn where the player knows he can store items safely or a rucksack that can store those small items while only taking up one space.
 

RGE

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I don't like inventories, but if there has to be one I'd probably prefer a screen where every type of item is sorted into a separate section. One section for weapons, one for quest items, one for valuables, one for crafting components etc. I also think that weight ought to be enough to keep track of how much can be carried, since it could be assumed that everything that's even slightly cumbersome is dropped at the start of a fight and then picked up after the fallen have been looted.
 

Human Shield

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I'd look at the game Legacy: The Realms of Terror

Its inventory system is a pain but it had some cool points I liked: Body point attachment, and carrying cases.

I'd like an inventory system with space boxes only for survivial gear and weapons (not keys or notes). Have slots on the body and have items to increase slots like holters, cases, backpacks, straps, webbing etc...

So outfitting for survial is like designing a the prefect mech in a mechwarrior game.

If you have a party I liked Wiz8's system of having a party inventory that automatically split the weight between the members based on strength.
 

bryce777

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Fun is fine, but it can be amusing and annoying when you go by DnD rules and an 8 strength mage can't even carry a fricken crossbow while your dwarf fighter has a bundle of loot that is ten times his size strapped to his back as he merrily runs down the hallways.
 

deus

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Exitium said:
The point of having 18/00 Strength is that you've the strength of 10 men. You're Hercules.
I think in VD's game you aren't able to be that strong or at least you shouldn't be considering some of the other things he's said. That in mind, I always thought that an inventory based completely space on the character would be ideal. There would be three place for items: around the character's waist, on the character's back and in the character's hands.

Around the waist there could be either belt or a sheathed weapon, although every character can carry various denominations of money by default. The belt would have pouches for small items and for small commonly used items e.g. lockpicks for a thief. A pouch could hold things like keys, herbs, or ammunition for a sling. There could be space for a weapon dagger size and smaller. A larger one-handed weapon could take the place of a belt. Anything stored around the waist should only cost 1 or 2 AP if the maximum is 10 because the whole point is to have easy access. Ammo stored around the waist would be considered where the ammo is normally stored.

On the back could be either a backpack or a larger weapon / bow with a quarrel. The backpack would hold food, small amounts of loot, bandages, extra ammo for slings and useable items not around the waist. A weapon on the back should cost 2 or 3 AP because of extra time needed to get them. It should take the whole turn to get and use anything from the backpack because its meant for storage, not access midbattle due to having to put a weapon away and then take the pack off and sort through it.

Bandages would be stored on the pack or in the belt. They would use no room in the backpack because they would be stored seperatly, and would take up on slot on the belt. If a wound needs to be bandaged on the character it would use up all the character's AP; if some else needs bandaging it would take essentially take one to get to the person if they aren't in range and one to bandage them. Skill would determine the amount and quality of the bandaging.

Whatever is currently in the character's hands plus whatever is in the second equip slot is considered equipped and uses no AP to switch between them. If the large and larger item slots are occupied by a backpelt or belt, the weapon can't be put away. It can only be dropped or thrown if appropriate.

Total item weight influences movement and the chance to hit. At a certain threshold, item weight starts to impact movement and attacking. The detriment is gradual until the character basically can't move and can't attack due to the weight and eventually pass out due to stamina loss if there is stamina. The first threshold would be based on strength while the second on endurance/constitution and would obviously stack on top of the first.

The belt would have four or five spots for either pouches or items plus a seperate spot for a small weapon. There could be varying sizes of backpacks with different sizes, but the largest would be no larger than a camping backpack. The backpack is for storing needed supplies not huge amounts of loot and weapons.

That is more or less what my dream inventory system. The key idea is that you shouldn't be able to store more than the absolute necessities. The decisions with loot shoudn't be "Should I drop my +4 dagger of stabbing or my +5 mace of bashing" but rather "Is it worth dropping three days worth of food for the ...".
 

Greatatlantic

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I think for starters, you should just do away with "phat lewt". Just have enemies drop gold, and keep valuable items few and far between, but make them drool worthy when you finally get them.

I tend to shrug away from the weight system, since it becomes highly unrealistic, in most fantasy settings anyways. No one could where fullplate armor and run, no one. At best, they'd do a slow walk. Now, put them on a horse and you've got something there.

Here is another system to add to your list, SS2's. It is a space limitor, but the amount of space you have increases with strength, so it weight is factored in indirectly. Just a thought.

If you want a game with a lot of diverse loot, then go ahead and use a KotOR with out restrictions, or at least select restrictions. I hate playing NWN or Morrowind and having to readjust my weight to keep everything I need to. An alternative is to limit the player to one set of armor, and one big weapon and a small weapon,or just three small weapons. And keyring, you need a keyring.
 

NeverwinterKnight

Liturgist
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Feb 4, 2005
Messages
154
personally, nothing ruins my gaming more than having to decide whether or not to lug that extra armor or sword back to a store to get good coin for it, knowing full well ill have to leave another item behind in order to carry it. yes, the option to just not bring the item is there, but thats just how i am. i like to explore every single area, and i like to accumulate every single piece of equipment.

but having said that, i think there should be SOME kind of restriction or have the ability to carry extra stuff with you (ala fallout 2 with the ability to put stuff in your trunk). i thought that was a great addition so that even though your characters personal inventory was relatively small, the trunk space allowed for you to carry a bunch of stuff.

in short, im not a fan of having a tiny inventory system, but i also think the kotor system could have been better. heck, you have a frickin' space ship with cargo compartments. that would have been the perfect "out" for the developers to implement inventory restrictions. each character can carry a certain amount, and the rest has to stay on the ebon hawk in the cargo holds. sure, you can still accumulate phat loot, but it will still make you decide between which items to bring on a mission and which to leave on the hawk.
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bryce777

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Greatatlantic said:
I think for starters, you should just do away with "phat lewt". Just have enemies drop gold, and keep valuable items few and far between, but make them drool worthy when you finally get them.

I tend to shrug away from the weight system, since it becomes highly unrealistic, in most fantasy settings anyways. No one could where fullplate armor and run, no one. At best, they'd do a slow walk. Now, put them on a horse and you've got something there.

Here is another system to add to your list, SS2's. It is a space limitor, but the amount of space you have increases with strength, so it weight is factored in indirectly. Just a thought.

If you want a game with a lot of diverse loot, then go ahead and use a KotOR with out restrictions, or at least select restrictions. I hate playing NWN or Morrowind and having to readjust my weight to keep everything I need to. An alternative is to limit the player to one set of armor, and one big weapon and a small weapon,or just three small weapons. And keyring, you need a keyring.

People can run in full plate.

Some can even do acrobatics.

Chainmail is actually much more restrictive.

Plate armor usually weighs around 70 pounds which is less than all the equipment a marine carries, and they have to be able to run, and that is just an average marine including the smaller guys. Some special ops guys can carrying 150 pounds and still run.
 

Sarvis

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bryce777 said:
Greatatlantic said:
I think for starters, you should just do away with "phat lewt". Just have enemies drop gold, and keep valuable items few and far between, but make them drool worthy when you finally get them.

I tend to shrug away from the weight system, since it becomes highly unrealistic, in most fantasy settings anyways. No one could where fullplate armor and run, no one. At best, they'd do a slow walk. Now, put them on a horse and you've got something there.

Here is another system to add to your list, SS2's. It is a space limitor, but the amount of space you have increases with strength, so it weight is factored in indirectly. Just a thought.

If you want a game with a lot of diverse loot, then go ahead and use a KotOR with out restrictions, or at least select restrictions. I hate playing NWN or Morrowind and having to readjust my weight to keep everything I need to. An alternative is to limit the player to one set of armor, and one big weapon and a small weapon,or just three small weapons. And keyring, you need a keyring.

People can run in full plate.

Some can even do acrobatics.

Chainmail is actually much more restrictive.

Plate armor usually weighs around 70 pounds which is less than all the equipment a marine carries, and they have to be able to run, and that is just an average marine including the smaller guys. Some special ops guys can carrying 150 pounds and still run.

Yes, but most of that weight is in their packs... and from what I hear they drop the packs when they start actually fighting. Don't have that option with platemail... heh.
 

Surlent

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Jul 21, 2004
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I vote Arcanum's max items and weight limit. It's not only realistic, but doesn't end the character having nearly unlimited load of potions, weapons and armor like in KotR.

No matter how strong you are, there's no way you could have the room to carry multiple sets of armor and heavy weapons with or without backpack. Encubarence should have severe penalties to combat at least speed and dextrerity penalty.

With less resources you need to pick your carried items more carefully. Sides stashes like in Diablo are good way to store extra loot. And for the gameplay's sake some light items like coins/money would be weightless and doesn't increase encubarence.
 

Flink

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I'd prefer a system similar to say Fallout (weight restriction), but allows for more sorting, like in KoTOR. Not having to scroll past all the holotapes, keycards and misc. items every time you want to switch ammo would really get rid of an annoying gameplay factor.

As for encumberence, should it be like in Fallout/BG where you're first slowed, then can't move at all ones you’re severely encumbered? Should you still be able to throw more stuff on a heavily encumbered character for inventory management purposes? Or should you get a "Inventory is full" message, like in Fallout which at times could be kind of annoying....

I like the idea of combat penalty for heavy encumberence...
 

Visbhume

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Jun 21, 2004
Messages
984
I would like to see a generalised inventory system that lets you directly reference objects that are far away from you, or aren't even yours. When you click on one of these objects, the game would switch to "map mode" and automatically take you to its location (perhaps meeting enemies along the way, or finding that the object is no longer there).

It would be a cross between an inventory and a diary. It would reduce the incentive to carry ALL the interesting objects you encounter like a fucking cleptomaniac.

Imagine something like that in Arcanum, while playing as an artificer.
 

bryce777

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Sarvis said:
bryce777 said:
Greatatlantic said:
I think for starters, you should just do away with "phat lewt". Just have enemies drop gold, and keep valuable items few and far between, but make them drool worthy when you finally get them.

I tend to shrug away from the weight system, since it becomes highly unrealistic, in most fantasy settings anyways. No one could where fullplate armor and run, no one. At best, they'd do a slow walk. Now, put them on a horse and you've got something there.

Here is another system to add to your list, SS2's. It is a space limitor, but the amount of space you have increases with strength, so it weight is factored in indirectly. Just a thought.

If you want a game with a lot of diverse loot, then go ahead and use a KotOR with out restrictions, or at least select restrictions. I hate playing NWN or Morrowind and having to readjust my weight to keep everything I need to. An alternative is to limit the player to one set of armor, and one big weapon and a small weapon,or just three small weapons. And keyring, you need a keyring.

People can run in full plate.

Some can even do acrobatics.

Chainmail is actually much more restrictive.

Plate armor usually weighs around 70 pounds which is less than all the equipment a marine carries, and they have to be able to run, and that is just an average marine including the smaller guys. Some special ops guys can carrying 150 pounds and still run.

Yes, but most of that weight is in their packs... and from what I hear they drop the packs when they start actually fighting. Don't have that option with platemail... heh.

With plate armor, the weight is distributed so it is actually much better than with a pack. Marines have to storm off the beach in their packs and they do run.

A bulletproof vest is about 50 pounds, and is actually much more of a pain to wear because the weight is not distributed as well, but cops wear them all the time and even run after criminals in them.

If you aren't mobile enough to run in a fight you are going to lose, no matter how invulnerable you are.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Exitium said:
If the game is party based just get rid of the restrictions. It's a pain in the ass. The player can just imagine that they have a chest somewhere.

Doesn't this basically set the precedent for this excuse to be used everywhere else? Creating roleplaying options for all characters is most likely a pain in the ass as well - why not just let the player imagine things in regards to roleplaying instead of giving him a plethora of options?

Sorry, I don't buy that. Specially because restrictions, if properly implemented, are there to maintain balance in the game and a level of credibility with what is presented. Lugging around dozens of suits of heavy armor may be easy for someone with an excellent build, but even then, it would bring in some dificulties. As strong as you may be, you'll eventually slow down, have balance and reflex problems because of the weight. While there's no need to implement realistic drawbacks to the point of taking away the game's fun, it's no doubt doubt a good balance tool.

On the other hand you could have a pet goblin who lugs around a big sack like Santa's helper.

Yes. Goblins rule. Specially snotty, subservient ones who are coerced into helping the party.


As for VD's question, I personally prefer the Arcanum (space+weight restriction) and Morrowind (weight) systems. I particularly like MW's system because of the resizeable inventory screen which allows me to see all I'm carrying. But Arcanum pretty much tops it.

Have you considered a weight + space restriction + number of slots based on strength? As in, an inventory system similar to that of Arcanum, with items taking up a given number of slots and having their own weight, but also, to make it so the amount of space (slots) available be determined by character values such as strength and constitution?
 

Hajo

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Exitium said:
If the game is party based just get rid of the restrictions. It's a pain in the ass. The player can just imagine that they have a chest somewhere. On the other hand you could have a pet goblin who lugs around a big sack like Santa's helper.

Once I pondered about including a wheelbarrow in my "The Jungle" game module. Now the wheelbarrow became a mule.

This solves two problems: allow to carry lots but doesn't allow to use everything at once. If you are ambushed there is no time to tranfer items from mule to player and vice versa.

Another idea: a portable hole. You can carry it with you, and it allows to get/put items from/into a chest stored elsewhere. You need to put another portable hole in the chest, though.

I like portable holes. You can slap them on walls and tunnel through. You can use them to set up pit traps. You can use them to steal items from locked containers.

I wonder why no game has portable holes yet :)
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Hajo said:
Another idea: a portable hole. You can carry it with you... You can slap them on walls and tunnel through.

I wonder why no game has portable holes yet :)
King's Quest 5 or 6. :wink: Good ol' games.
 

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