GameDesign: Repairing items in CRPGs.

[Stark]

Why were you using weapons and armor against an acid guy and not magic?

ermm... ever consider it's because i ran out of spells?

besides, it's a real time game and they always come towards you. some of the corridors are just one single tile and do not give you much room to manuever for range attack.

but the real reason is, i am not a DnD guy and not aware there're such penalties.

 

[Thorndyke]

1) Is it fun to repair armor and weapons in games?
2) Did you enjoy that feature in those games that had it (Arcanum, Morrowind, D2)?
3) Did you miss that feature in those games that didn’t have it (Fallout, BG, ToEE)?

1 - Yes
2 - No
3 - Yes (especially in Fallout)

I like the idea of being able to repair things in the game world, but so far, no game has managed to implement that idea in an entertaining way. I still have hopes though.

 

[Stark]

I like the idea of being able to repair things in the game world, but so far, no game has managed to implement that idea in an entertaining way. I still have hopes though.

any suggestions on making it entertaining?

in Gothic (1 and 2) there's the option of using the grinding stone to sharpen your sword (complete with animation of your avatar grinding away) but it does nothing to your sword (does not make it better or worse).

while it might be fun the first or second time watching the animation grinding away i think it'll get tedious subsequently.

 

[Azael]

I don't mind it in certain games, such as Jagged Alliance 2, mostly because it's semi-"realistic" in nature and because the game had some natural downtime where it was no hassle to have one of your mercs maintain and repair your equipment. As soon as it becomes a matter of personally having to find a blacksmith/technician/whatever, it quickly becomes a tedious mess though. Upgrading/modifying equipment is a lot of fun though and something I appreciate in games that have it (especially if I too can modify some things myself).

So...
1.) Not really, but don't mind it in some games
2.) No
3.) No

I'm inclined to agree that adventures should come with some costs as well as rewards, but I have no real good idea on how to do this without it turning into a bore.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

In most games I am in agreement with most here - reparing and degradation just sucks. Azael points out JA2 and I agree it worked there, but mostly because there was so much else to do during that downtime such as training, healing. waiting for your equipment to arrive etc that it wasn't tedious and you didn't need to haul ass all around the world to find someone to repair your stuff - you could do it yourself.

I also liked it in System Shock 2 because it added a lot to the tension of the game. In addition to not knowing what was down the next corridor or through the next doot was heightened for me by the tension of hoping my guns stayed in shape and I had enough ammo.

But other than these two games few come to mind. As a "feature" it usually absolutely sucks. Christ I fucking hated it in Arcanum.

 

[The Exar]

Every game has its "reality" factor. However, some things from the real life have a negative result on the gameplay. Things like food, time limit and others like that, just kill the game expirience. I`m sure that some guys relaly like attending to such little things. In this case repairing weapons is often used for balancing the gameplay. The Devs`re probably right for themselves, but the constant return to the local blacksmith is boring and, by me, absolutely useless. I won`t miss it.

 

[suibhne]

Repairing in Arcanum worked to the extent to which it balanced tech and magic, since the most powerful magic weapons had essentially unlimited durability (because they basically no damage even from those nasty walking boulders) while some of the really useful tech weapons (Balanced Sword, anyone?) would break right and left if you didn't take care of them. Some of the armor- and weapon-damaging monsters caused far too much damage to gear, though, which was damn frustrating. Arcanum's durability system was a somewhat effective balancing constraint within the gameworld, in other words, but was itself badly in need of balancing.

There was no good reason for it in Diablo 2, other than to add another metric for players to track. Dull.

If repairing is in the game, crafting should also be in, and should use the same basic skillset. Arcanum's BMC punished you for not being able to repair your own items (or for not being an explosives expert), and that's the wrong way to go; instead, players should have real incentives to pursue a skill path that includes repair, and tying that to crafting seems to me to strike a good balance between logic and effective incentive. On the other hand, crafting is also implemented damn stupidly in many games - best represented by The Fall, where (it's advertised) you can combine a tool and some wire to produce chainmaill!!!!11!. JA2 suffered from this same problem, in my view: MacGyver-like combos of items which in real life would be pretty damn tough to jury-rig into a modern art installation, much less a barrel extender or high-quality armor.

 

[crufty]

on similar note. you guys played Eye of Beholder game? I remember my sword being dissolved by acid attack and had to punch my way out. also, some monsters tear away my armour during a fight and i did not even notice that i'm wearing no armor until much later.

I agree...most of the time, weapons/armor degrading is a pain in the ass. Just like feeding everyone in Ultima 7. However, when kept at a minimum--either as a result of player stupidity (eg nethack "you dip your sword +1 in the pool...it rusts!") or as a result of a narrowly defined set of monsters (ie D&D's rust monster), it is another mechanism to keep the players on their toes.

As far as reality goes, wouldn't it be safe to assume that pc's maintain their equipment, just like it's safe to assume that they go to the bathroom? If anything, I would make wearing armor a skill (similar to the old AD&D v2 proficiencies) where you either know how to wear (and maintain) chain mail or you don't. And if you don't, then you just subtract a certain % from the armor's effectiveness. This would represent wear and tear through out the life of the armor. You could also just reduce the amount of wealth in the world (sort of a meta-tax mechanic), and assume that players are constantly repairing things.

Or, at least make it a game option...so the people that want to, can.

 

[Whipporowill]

Having to eat is pointless - but having to actually have food is another matter, just automate it, when camping for instance. The only game where I can remember finding and eating food actually mattered to survival was in the Underworld games, which were pretty much about surviving in a hostile environment.

That said - I'd like to see characters acually having to buy food when going out into the wilds, or how having a hunter/ranger/outdoorsman could get you some fresh meat each day.

 

[The Exar]

Having to eat is pointless - but having to actually have food is another matter, just automate it, when camping for instance. The only game where I can remember finding and eating food actually mattered to survival was in the Underworld games, which were pretty much about surviving in a hostile environment.

That said - I'd like to see characters acually having to buy food when going out into the wilds, or how having a hunter/ranger/outdoorsman could get you some fresh meat each day.

Preharps adding food requirements and rations for places where you cannot find food? E.g. dungeons, caves... For civilized places - automatic buying (discount from party`s money). Wilderness - as you said - using rangers and survival skill. Well, i have to admit i haven`t thought of that...

 

[Fez]

I originally wrote a long suggestion on how to include weapon and armour breakage into a game without being so annoying, but then I realised that it basically always sucks. Item creation and upgrading is ace, no arguments there, but I've yet to play a game where I thought "This repair skill is great fun". It just tends to waste time and breaks the flow of the game and immersion as the player is forced to click buttons or waste loot. The only way you could include it without wasting too much time is if you were transported from whatever dungeon you were in and you had a list pop up asking you to ok repairs for items and a bill at the end. But I don't like that much either. It's a poor attempt a realism that has gone badly wrong and ranks up there with making the player go to the toilet regularly.

 

[Whipporowill]

Having to eat is pointless - but having to actually have food is another matter, just automate it, when camping for instance. The only game where I can remember finding and eating food actually mattered to survival was in the Underworld games, which were pretty much about surviving in a hostile environment.

That said - I'd like to see characters acually having to buy food when going out into the wilds, or how having a hunter/ranger/outdoorsman could get you some fresh meat each day.

Preharps adding food requirements and rations for places where you cannot find food? E.g. dungeons, caves... For civilized places - automatic buying (discount from party`s money). Wilderness - as you said - using rangers and survival skill. Well, i have to admit i haven`t thought of that...

Ace. I'll make sure to use that in any future crpg I might create then. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I always liked how in Avernum, food was needed to rest. So you didnt have to keep feeding your guys, but having food with you was still important.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Whip, I like your idea of automating food delivery. Having a Hunter/Outdoorsman sort of character could provide a certain amount of food every day automatically, just for having him around in the party. I like that - it increases their usefulness.

 

[Mnemon]

JA2 suffered from this same problem, in my view: MacGyver-like combos of items which in real life would be pretty damn tough to jury-rig into a modern art installation, much less a barrel extender or high-quality armor.

While I agree on what you said regarding The Fall in this repect, I think the MacGyver like combos worked well for JA2. Mainly because JA2 didn't try to be - in any aspect - outright realistic, but maybe something like "inspired by reality". There is an underlying, "unrealistic" humor (regardless of it's qualities) throughout the game, see the character creation, the response messages from your crew etc. etc.

I'd wish games would be designed along a similar philosophy. Reality inspired is okay, but being constrained by reality ain't.

-Mnemon

P.S.: Did anyone ever actually tried what happens if one refuses to pay M.E.R.C. even after reminders? I wonder if one can make them shut down.

 

[almondblight]

I agree...most of the time, weapons/armor degrading is a pain in the ass. Just like feeding everyone in Ultima 7. However, when kept at a minimum--either as a result of player stupidity (eg nethack "you dip your sword +1 in the pool...it rusts!") or as a result of a narrowly defined set of monsters (ie D&D's rust monster), it is another mechanism to keep the players on their toes.

Yeah, I agree - if it's something like 5 monsters in the whole games that can degrade your armor, and after those fights you can take them to get repaired, then it adds an interesting element to certain battles. If it's done in small amounts in the right places, it won't get tedious (just don't have any area where multiple monsters do this - then it results in "fight monster, go back, repair, fight monster, go back, repair, etc").

 

[Sol Invictus]

Personally I think it's a bit too difficult for any developer to balance properly, which is probably why you should keep weapon repairing out. If the game is based mostly on experience you'll end up just fighting the monsters that don't degrade your items as much as those which do in order to reduce downtime.

This, I think, would make some parts of the game relatively untouched because most people wouldn't want to fight those monsters.

Just leave it out.

 

[littleboy]

P.S.: Did anyone ever actually tried what happens if one refuses to pay M.E.R.C. even after reminders? I wonder if one can make them shut down.

Yea, Merc didn't list it's more valuable agents (some of the best in the game) unless you hired and paid the shitty mules, and if you didn't pay they left and Merc shut down.


On the main topic point however; I loved putting shit together in JA2 and any game that allows you to mecanicaly solve problems is pretty nifty in my book. But the skill has to be usable in more than one instace, one of the anoying things about KOTOR was that you had to have a pretty high skill level in Repair to be able to repair HK47 all the way (and make him pretty damn sweet to boot) but to my recolection it was never needed again, your companions could create items (wookie: granades [s/p?] r2d2 clone: computer hacking spikes mission the useless anyoning bitch who got what's coming to her when i made her furry hairball freind kill her: lockpicks steriotipical old/black man (so should have been blind): health packs Mr Merc: drugs, don't think i missed anyone there)) liked the game overall but that was a bit of a pisser (you didn't even need it to upgrade items).

 

[voodoo1man]

(complete with a "ding" sound effect)

If there is one thing that absolutely drives me nuts about Morrowind, it's the fucking "ding" when repairing armor. I realize it's a game with poor sound effects all around, but there is no excuse for making that god-damn sound twice as loud as all the other ones. They didn't fix it in the expansion packs either. I'd love to hunt down their sound-effects guy, chain him up in the studio, and loop that sound at maximum volume until he bleeds to death out of his ears. :twisted:

 

[Reklar]

I'll chime in with a similar response, which is no to all three questions. I've played games where repairing wasn't really annoying (JA2 mostly), but I have never missed it as a component of gameplay (Fallout). If you're going to implement it as an aspect of gameplay make it as minimally tedious as possible and don't go overboard with equipment degradation. I realize that armor and weapons need proper maintainence, but unless you're really abusing it there shouldn't be a need to repair it constantly (Arcanum, Betrayal at Krondor).

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Ap_Jolly]

Someone (I forgot who it was) said items should not break, but you should be able to repair broken items you find in the world to make them work. I like that idea.

Maintenance skill could just decrease number of critical failures when operating the mechanical items.

 

[Wysardry]

How would you all feel about including "repair equipment" options on the camp/rest menu?

For example, you could have the following options:-

1. Rest for _ hours
2. Rest until healed
3. Repair equipment
4. Repair equipment and rest until healed

The greater your repair skill, the quicker the repairs are and the less they cost. Whilst in town you could drop items off at the local blacksmith shop, rest in the nearest inn, and then pick them up when they're ready.

You could also choose not to repair items that you know you're going to sell anyway.

 

[Stark]

How would you all feel about including "repair equipment" options on the camp/rest menu?

For example, you could have the following options:-

1. Rest for _ hours
2. Rest until healed
3. Repair equipment
4. Repair equipment and rest until healed

no. don't really apeal to me. the idea of repairing weapons just do not appeal to me in general.

The greater your repair skill, the quicker the repairs are and the less they cost. Whilst in town you could drop items off at the local blacksmith shop, rest in the nearest inn, and then pick them up when they're ready.

that sounds even more a hassle than what is presently being implemented in any crpg. so i'll be deprived of my weapon for the night, and need to physically go down to smithy to collect it the next day? while it's a nice shot at realistic experience it's also a hassle to player. maybe fun the first 2 times, after that it's just a hassle.

 

[Wysardry]

Eating and sleeping aren't particularly fun ways to pass the time either, and having it get dark at night can also be a hassle, but without those aspects (role-playing) games seem too shallow to me.

The idea of including a blacksmith to repair weapons and armour isn't a new one, it has been done in the Elder Scrolls and Diablo games, although admittedly, in the latter repair was instantaneous.

If you've just arrived in town, you probably have spare weapons and armour in your inventory, so there would be no need to go completely unarmed whilst repairs are taking place.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Eating and sleeping aren't particularly fun ways to pass the time either, and having it get dark at night can also be a hassle, but without those aspects (role-playing) games seem too shallow to me.

Eating and sleeping is one level of micromanagement I can just simiply assume my character is doing on his own when he's walking or resting. Having to push a button periodically just for the sake of "depth" is hardly deep at all. Instead, it's tedious and annoying.

It's also pretty stupid when you consider it. What happens when a player goes without food too long? They die? So, you've just exerted yourself by getting nailed with goblin swords and arrows until you wipe them all out, but since you forgot to pack that post homocidal rampage loaf of bread in your backback, you die? Um, okay.

But really, if you can't get over the concept of characters actually doing stuff in the background without needing you to push a button every so often or dragging that loaf of bread to your mouth icon - just think of health potions as being packed with vitamins and protien. They're like Slim-Fast for dungeon crawling.