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GameDesign: Repairing items in CRPGs.

Section8

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I view the idea of food/repairs/etc in games as a simple form of resource management. If you look at it on face value only, of course it seems dull and pointless.

I've seen arguments about Fallout's time limit that this is beginning to remind me of. The whole point of that time limit is to propel the player forward, keep them progressing through a storyline that isn't spoonfed and is even integrated into the character system to some extent. I mean, why tag first aid when you can just rest for a few days? (until healed) I'd argue that Fallout's time limit is generous enough even at the original 150 days, and if you're pushing for time, then maybe you've been playing the game in a counterproductive manner (not to be confused with "You're doing it all wrong!" :twisted: )

Likewise, in most games, starvation or item destruction isn't intended to be a major concern, its just a means to another end.

Contending with hunger is fairly trivial in Dungeon Master for instance. For the most part, there plenty of food sources, some of which are renewable. But it does add a couple of things to the game, no matter how trivial and unchallenging it may seem. Like Fallout's time limit it helps to set a pace. If you're busting out your entire mana supply every time you see a monster, and then sleeping it off, or even just sleeping in preference to using priest spells, then you're going to starve. It's a little prodding in the general direction of making game progress, and also a subtle limiting factor. It also leads you to make inventory decisions. What's important to you? Moreover, it's a "grey area" decision that is infinitely more interesting than the binary decisions you see in many games these days.

When considering repair, I can't remember ever using it as a primary skill in anything (although I have tagged it in my most recent game of Fallout) because it never seems to measure up or balance out. In most systems it needs some serious dressing up to be even remotely appealing. The Morrowind approach I actually found pretty good. From memory you couldn't critically fail, and thus never damaged your gear with shoddy repairs, which is something that shits me endlessly in implementations. The idea that you have to magically improve your repair skill at level up time to a high enough level that you can actually use it in the field is just plain irritating.

But back to Morrowind, where the solution was to either find someone with one of the machines that goes "ping!" or to carry around a lot of repair gear (once again, creating inventory based dilemnas) if you had a low repair skill.

And while I'm on the topic of Morrowind, it seems right to address the point of "How bloody irritating is it to trudge all the way back to merchants?!" which is especially relevant given Morrowind's travel system. I ended up training my Mysticism right up just so I could mark and recall at will.

This is when the argument against the little micro stuff like food and repairs actually bears some weight, because it has ceased to be a useful background resource management thingy, and is now actively frustrating the player, and slowing their progress. I'd maintain that this is generally due to poor implementation or questionable player choices, both of which are encompassed by ore golems, where the player makes a poor choice in using a bladed weapon because they haven't been given adequate foreshadowing info.

Ideally, these sorts of things should be implemented in such a way that the never cause major drama or downtime for a player, if they are adequately managed. "Adequate management" should be nothing more than what the player has to do to turn a profit when unloading ph4t loot, and it makes for a slightly more interesting economy than constant profit for the player, with few ways to contribute money back into the merchants' purses (ie Fallout or Morrowind, where money is tracked fairly explicitly)

On the whole, I feel that it can add a lot to a game. It can provide the basest of motivations, keeping the player and/or the plotline moving, it gives the player a sense that their profit has some use, somewhere along the line if quests are a bit thin at any point in the game, it provides an extra bit of decision making (the essence of expressing RP "How would my character approach this problem?") and in the right circumstances provides a platform for more in depth RP. (Like a mate of mine's 300lb wizard who spent most of his loot money on rations, and insisted on tasting everything the party ever killed.)
 

Ortchel

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Do you really find SimCity or The Sims or Roller Coaster Tycoon to be realistic?

Wow. I mean, just, wow.

No. I don't even consider them simulations, do you?
 

suibhne

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Ortchel said:
Do you really find SimCity or The Sims or Roller Coaster Tycoon to be realistic?

Wow. I mean, just, wow.

No. I don't even consider them simulations, do you?

The market does, so it seemed the simplest assumption to make when trying to understand you. What did you mean by "simulation," then? I've just read through all 116 "Simulation" titles at a major online retailer, and I didn't find a single one you could reference for realism unless you confine your discussion entirely to combat flight simulators. Even in those cases, I suspect I'd find the games ludicrously unrealistic if I were actually a trained combat pilot. :wink:

(Well, there's always Fly!, which I've read is ultra-mega-monster-realistic. But, uh, I doubt that's what you were imagining.)

My point stands: realism is an unrealistic standard (ha!), and the people who employ it in arguments about game design invariably apply it with capricious inconsistency.
 

Ortchel

Liturgist
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I was thinking mainly of Fly!, Microsoft's Flight Simulators and Deus which I mentioned earlier in the thread.
 

Elwro

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Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Section8 said:
IThe Morrowind approach I actually found pretty good.
I also liked that. The only problem was that the rate at which the skill was trained was too low. Repair was my primary skill and I used it all the time, only managing to increase it a few points (maybe 10 or sth.). I played a strong char, so I had no problems carrying those hammers.
And I don't understand the people complaining about the travel system. Travelling between towns is very fast, and if you use Mark/Recall wisely, you won't have any problems. Amulets of Mark/Recall are very common.
 

Section8

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I also liked that. The only problem was that the rate at which the skill was trained was too low. Repair was my primary skill and I used it all the time, only managing to increase it a few points (maybe 10 or sth.). I played a strong char, so I had no problems carrying those hammers.

I had all sorts of issues with the varying rates of skill progression. I had Enchant as a primary skill, and unless I intentionally power trained it, it would barely budge, whereas many of the passive skills such as armour skills, athletics, blocking, etc. would be constantly improving, and as a result of that, my character was developing in entirely different ways to the way I had envisioned.

And I don't understand the people complaining about the travel system. Travelling between towns is very fast, and if you use Mark/Recall wisely, you won't have any problems. Amulets of Mark/Recall are very common.

Admittedly there were plenty of rapid transport routes between towns (striders, boats, mage guilds, intervention spells, recall, etc) but the source of my frustration is the gaming downtime that travel presents. I had no problems with travel in the very early stages of the game, because there was an inherent risk of moving in and around lethal enemies. Likewise, travelling in previously unexplored areas kept my attention, since I was exploring (possibly the best aspect of the entire game). But when travel became a matter of simply travelling from point A to point B along a well worn path, it becomes tedious, with no gameplay merit whatsoever.

I'm probably overexaggerating a little, because it certainly could have been much worse. I just have horrible memories of trudging through ash storms to reach the Ghostgate, and taking wrong turns here and there.
 

Claw

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1) It's as fun as being hurt by bullets in an FPS.
2) Realms of Arkania. Enjoyable.. sure, in the same way as suddenly being surrounded by demons in Doom.
3) No.

I believe most attempts to isolate a singular design element and view it out of context fail.
Is repairing "fun" in Diablo2? No. I just do it every time I am in town anyway, that's usually enough.
Realms of Arkania on the other hand was very much a "life simulator" which forced the player to keep provisions and deal with bad weather, infections and diseases and of course broken swords. Your boots didn't last forever either. Also, you didn't travel into the mountains without a rope and fur cloaks and snow shoes if you weren't stupid.
All these elements may not sound alot of fun but the game was very enjoyable as a whole, if you were into that sort of thing.
 

Kraszu

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No, it would not feet AoD anyway. It could be interesting in game where you control big group of mercenaries for example, so you could hire somebody that takes care of weapon also, and if somebody would broke his weapon your blacksmith would repair/make new one weapon for him in next night or couple of nights.

Wondering around doing almost nothing should set you back compared to others in not story oriented game at least (but in sandbox game for example). Otherwise the game became mindless grind, consequence of doing stupid things should not be just making it last longer.
 

Kraszu

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What, why was it at top when I had opened Age of Decadence sub forum?
 

zenbitz

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BUMP
I know this thread is basically 5 years old, but I am curious - have peoples opinions changed in 5 years of new games?

Did FO3 (despite any other flaws), for example, do a better job of this?
 

Hory

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The only time I ever recall enjoying the equipment degradation mechanic is when I "outsmarted" the armor raping golems in the tunnels of Arcanum by using that asymmetric-looking barbarian-like armor with the metallic arm, as it had huge hitpoints (something like 10000). Otherwise, it's a pretty repetitive, no-brain-required mechanic, so no.
 

Mogar

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I think Megamod did it the best with Fallout. You can pick up armor, just so long as your repair skill is high enough. Different armor requires a different level of repair, scaling all the way up to Horrigan's unique armor, in which you need something like 160 repair points to pick it up. Additionally, under this system, there is no deterioration, which is a real hassle.
 

spectre

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I think the main problem with the deterioration systems most games have is that it is not seen as an enchancement to overall challenge, but are instrad an hassle which forces frequent trip to the town.

This can be seen clearly in the example of the two Diablos, weapon and armor has such and such durability, meaning you get so many minutes of fighting out of them. afterwars, you get to go back to town and click the repair all button every once in a while.
See, the problem is that it adds nothing to the game, but adds a sort of "tax" on your character's income.

Now, another bad habit I observed, is when repairing reduced maximum durability of an item. This has some merit, as you can never work an item back into 100% condition in real life, problem is, often it is paired with the Diablo system, of durability = minutes of service life for an item.

Now, for an example of step in a right direction, I have to summon the terrible wraith of Bolivion. Here, it is kinda similar to the Morrowind, with an added twist that with varying proficiency in Armorer skill additional options are made available. First, you need a bit more skill to repair magical items than regular stuff, second of all Master blacksmith can repair the items beyond the max, extending their service life, and IIRC improving their stats for a time.
Unfortunately, the concept of durability = dervice life in minutes is till there.

Finally, my thoughts.
I think repairing and item deterioration has potential in enhancing RPG experience.
What would I do to make it work smoothly:

The Repair Skill - needs to be a viable option for a character, but not necessarily a must have (post apocalyptic setting can justify this), as a means of saving money and time lost for trips back to town.
Also, adept smiths should be able to squeeze a bit more mileage out of the stuff they work on.
Characters without repair skills need to be careful with their gear (will elaborate later) and have sidearms handy.

The deterioration process itself - I object vehemently to steady deterioration over time. I think such factor need to be put out of the equation - minor gear damage should be negated by standard maintenance. As long as the item is used in a way it's suppoosed to, no durability decrease.

Instead, I advocate item damage on critical rolls only, if the cut was clean, the blade will not be damaged. If the armor absorbed the blow, so much the better.
Another example, when an item is used in an obviously damaging way - like opening a robot with anything else than a blunt weapon, like trying to slash through a platemali, using weapons in bad weater/mud/rain - they belong in the scabbard or some other type of holder or box.

Thing is, the damage needs to be more dependant on the player's negligence rather than dumb luck, and ideally, the player has to be aware of that and have options at his or her disposal - like aim for the weak spots in armor, and use thrusts to minimise damage to the weapon vs. an armed opponent. Option not parry with the weapon, but just dodge if the opponent fights dirty.

So, what I am proposing is a change of pace, instead of just: damn, two more goblins and we're pulling out, the characters fall back mostly after difficult fights, after which they need to pull out anyway, to heal and sell phat lewt.

As you can see, Arcanum suits suits me quite well, but I think the destructive capabilities of some monsters are a bit over the top, and it becomes: kill it before it kills my armor!

I think it worked best in Jagged Alliance, where you could make do with minor repairs every few battles. Unless you chose to go swimming with your boomstick.
Only items found on your enemies (and bought on sale) needed to spend some time on the workbench before they could be used with little misfire risk.
 

Shannow

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I mostly agree with Spectre. However I'd like to add, that I think it depends on the type of game. In a story driven, high fantasy game with me as super-human hero that goes around splattering hundreds of enemies per engagement and equipment is simply a "power up" I'd see repairs as in Diablo as a distraction from gameplay.
Whereas I think they'd be a requirement in a survival sandbox/world simulation game. If you have enough drains on gold thus making repairs more than a minor distraction it can open up more modes of playing (read: choices). Do you run around in plate mail which gives most protection but costs you dearly in upkeep (and in other areas) thus forcing you to take jobs you'd evade otherwise or do you run around in leather and light mail being able to affect most repairs yourself and living a life that is more removed from the slavery of gold?
Something like living as knight vs living as ranger.
 

Claw

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zenbitz said:
BUMP
I know this thread is basically 5 years old, but I am curious - have peoples opinions changed in 5 years of new games?

Did FO3 (despite any other flaws), for example, do a better job of this?
No and no.


Also, The Dark Eye pwns every other idea of item degradation.

To wit:
Every weapon has a break value. In certain situations - critical failure, or even a successful parry - a break test is performed. If it fails, the weapon breaks. If it's successful, the break value is increased, making the weapon more likely to break.

It's far more interesting than simple degradation, with a much stronger focus on weapons breaking in combat.
 

zenbitz

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Claw said:
Also, The Dark Eye pwns every other idea of item degradation.

To wit:
Every weapon has a break value. In certain situations - critical failure, or even a successful parry - a break test is performed. If it fails, the weapon breaks. If it's successful, the break value is increased, making the weapon more likely to break.
.

This is roughly the same as PnP Runequest ca. 1986. With the slight addition that break test = increased chance of failure of next break test.

But practically - this is functionally identical to degradation, just not at a constant rate.
 

J1M

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I thought this thread was going to be about repairing some cool armor you found off a boss. That kind of side quest is fun and gives you something to look forward to, especially if you can repair it a little at a time, instead of just a massive power boost from an unexpected item drop.

Regardless, repairing items isn't fun. It's not supposed to be though, it's supposed to be a money sink.
 

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