Deus Ex GMDX: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v9 Released!

[Ash]

I guess you're too much of a simpleton to understand that the design process doesn't end with design documents. Design documents are guidelines. Over time, as everything comes together and a clearer picture is attained, design is often tweaked and refined and can come out with minor or major differences to the conceptual phase. As a result of this process (called "Iterative Design") in the vanilla product, we ended up with a sawed-off shotgun with better accuracy and range than the assault shotgun.

Yes, the sawed-off really does have more accuracy and range than the assault shotgun in the vanilla game by design. Good thing too, otherwise it'd be outclassed by the other shotgun in absolutely every way.

 

[agris]

Ash What’s wrong with that? The vanilla design makes zero sense.

 

[The_Markie]

Yes, the sawed-off really does have more accuracy and range than the assault shotgun in the vanilla game by design. Good thing too, otherwise it'd be outclassed by the other shotgun in absolutely every way.

Hey there, it's me Markie, the developer of Magicka Recalculated (a Morrowind mod) here again. Technically, you're only partially (emphasis on partially) correct here, for example, sawed-off does not have more range than the assault shotgun, they both share the same accurate range of 1200 UUs (75 feet) and max range of 2400 UUs (150 feet).

As for accuracy, there are a few possible influences on the situation:
1. They intended the sawed-off to be low skill, that's why the base accuracy is higher so that it takes less skill to reach a usable accuracy. However they might have overlooked the nature of the skill bonus, causing the sawed off to scale off-puttingly at high skill. Do note that the assault gun was also intended to be low skill, yet it starts at a pretty terrible accuracy (worse than sawed off by 5%).
2. There might have been a mistake. There are clues pointing at the possibility that there was originally only ONE shotgun. When they decided to have two, they copied the same shotgun text twice (and maybe code too??), which led to a variety of questionable entries, like assault shotgun having a "slow" rate of fire, while sawed off has "medium", yet assault shotgun is described as "like sawed off but faster". I can imagine that this eventually caused somebody to make a mistake in setting the values for the two shotguns, swapping their accuracy. Note that the MP ranges for sawed off are indeed shorter than for assault, yet the MP recoil for sawed off is lower than assault for unknown reasons.

Regardless of the evidence presented above, it's for sure that they intended the shotguns to at least work like shotguns. There's a minimum spread value for shotguns that only works in multiplayer, this enforces a minimum amount of spread in order to (quoting the programmer's comment) "keeps shots from all going in same place (ruining shotgun effect)". This minimum value equates to 87.5% accuracy, whereas the assault shotgun can get at most 85%, while the sawed off can get up to 95%.

I don't know what happened for sure, but I don't think that anyone should ever take what they perceive on the surface, no matter how right or wrong it is, as absolute truth to base their logic on, then try to pass it back off as what objectively happened and was intended. The fact remains that there is a way to balance the two shotguns without breaking their "simulative nature", however whether you're clever enough or not to know how is another story.

 

[Ninjerk]

agris What's the rationale behind SOS doing more damage at close range? Even if all the pellets hit, it seems like there would be less energy since there isn't as much time for the gas pressure to build up before the projectiles exit the barrel.

 

[Ash]

Do you two seriously think Deus Ex is a game where realism takes precedence in any and all contexts? Deus Ex's weaponry design overall is somewhat unrealistic, and fundamental game design concepts such as balance often take precedence, again by design.

Here are some obvious unrealistic aspects of vanilla Deus Ex's weaponry. I'll stick to the immediately apparent stuff, most of it I have been nagged about by gun nuts over the years which I had to wave off every time because fundamental game design takes precedence, and it cannot be "fixed" without a complete redesign of Deus Ex's weaponry anyway:

-Two pistols, each using the same ammo calibre, yet wildly different damage outputs. Why? Balance primarily.
-Bullpup pistols. Why? Cool fictional sci-fi shit.
-An assault rifle with a damage ouput just under five times weaker than a pistol bullet. Why? Balance exclusively.
-A sawed-off shotgun with better range than a not-sawed off shotgun. Why? Because balance. Almost certainly late in development where it was too late to revert the weapon being a sawed-off.
-You don't have to load magazines bullet by bullet. Why? Convenience.
-Weapons don't shoot straight at all until the player character is skilled, even though the weapon is clearly shown being held still. Why? Because good gameplay.
-Universal weapon mods exist, wherein they always extend a statistic of a weapon by a fixed +10%. Why? Because fun.

And so on and on.

Recommended reading:

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134768/understanding_balance_in_video_.php?print=1
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DanFelder/20151012/251443/Design_101_Balancing_Games.php

Deus Ex isn't a reality simulator. It's a video game with realism and simulation influences.

 

[Ninjerk]

Do you two seriously think Deus Ex is a game where realism takes precedence in any and all contexts? Deus Ex's weaponry design is somewhat unrealistic, and fundamental game design concepts such as balance often take precedence, again by design.

Here are some obvious unrealistic aspects of Deus Ex's weaponry. I'll stick to the immediately apparent stuff, most of it I have been nagged about by gun nuts over the years which I had to wave off every time because fundamental game design takes precedence, and it cannot be "fixed" without a complete redesign of Deus Ex's weaponry:

-Two pistols, each using the same ammo calibre, yet wildly different damage outputs. Why? Balance primarily.
-Bullpup pistols. Why? Cool fictional sci-fi shit.
-An assault rifle with a damage ouput just under five times weaker than a pistol bullet. Why? Balance exclusively.
-A sawed-off shotgun with better range than a not-sawed off shotgun. Why? Because balance. Probably late in development where it was too late to revert the weapon being sawed-off.
-You don't have to load magazines bullet by bullet. Why? Convenience.
-Weapons don't shoot straight at all until the player character is skilled, even though the weapon is clearly shown being held still. Why? Because good gameplay.
-Universal weapon mods exist, wherein they always extend a statistic of a weapon by a fixed +10%. Why? Because fun.

And so on and on.

Calm tf down, I didn't even ask you.

On the topic of simulation (which lmao, because just in the last year you brought up that "immersive sim" hype term) vs. balance, I don't think the game models situations very well in which a short shotgun would be a better option--namely the fact that they can be easily concealed and quickly deployed from concealment. I saw the thread in "New Posts" came in to ask agris a question about something that didn't sound quite right. You don't need to get your panties in a wad about it.

 

[The_Markie]

Do you two seriously think Deus Ex is a game where realism takes precedence in any and all contexts? Deus Ex's weaponry design overall is somewhat unrealistic, and fundamental game design concepts such as balance often take precedence, again by design.
Deus Ex isn't a reality simulator. It's a video game with realism and simulation influences.

Not wrong to say balancing is generally more important than strict realism, but let's be frank here, there are multiple ways to approach a problem. Each solution has a degree of elegance and comfort that affects whether the player feels off and decides to question the game.

Just because you're not clever enough to know how to balance Assault vs Sawed-Off without ruining the spread nature of them, doesn't mean it's the only way.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

So weapon design in Deus Ex is shit and you have decided not to fix it. Fine, so why get pretentious and link to an article you googled on game balance as justification for nonsense. This is probably the only game ever where a sawed-off shotgun has better range and accuracy than a barreled shotgun.

If anything this points to an aspect of the game that could use some correction but instead you turn to insult?

 

[Ninjerk]

So weapon design in Deus Ex is shit and you have decided not to fix it. Fine, so why get pretentious and link to an article you googled on game balance as justification for nonsense. This is probably the only game ever where a sawed-off shotgun has better range and accuracy than a barreled shotgun.

If anything this points to an aspect of the game that could use some correction but instead you turn to insult?

You're just butthurt!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

So weapon design in Deus Ex is shit and you have decided not to fix it. Fine, so why get pretentious and link to an article you googled on game balance as justification for nonsense. This is probably the only game ever where a sawed-off shotgun has better range and accuracy than a barreled shotgun.

If anything this points to an aspect of the game that could use some correction but instead you turn to insult?

You're just butthurt!

I am butthurt, cause you never played UW I gave you.

 

[Ninjerk]

So weapon design in Deus Ex is shit and you have decided not to fix it. Fine, so why get pretentious and link to an article you googled on game balance as justification for nonsense. This is probably the only game ever where a sawed-off shotgun has better range and accuracy than a barreled shotgun.

If anything this points to an aspect of the game that could use some correction but instead you turn to insult?

You're just butthurt!

I am butthurt, cause you never played UW I gave you.

I tried to pick that up the other day but my laptop is having heat issues.

 

[RoSoDude]

Over time, as everything comes together and a clearer picture is attained, design is often tweaked and refined and can come out with minor or major differences to the conceptual phase. As a result of this process (called "Iterative Design") in the vanilla product, we ended up with a sawed-off shotgun with better accuracy and range than the assault shotgun.

A great example is in the design document itself.

Sawed Off Shotgun Inventory Size: 2
Assault Shotgun Inventory Size: 5

It's almost like, I don't know, they actually implemented and tested the design and worked towards a better balance point than what they wrote a priori in the design document. Duh.

The amount of "muh realism" in this thread right now is fairly staggering. Would it have been better if the sawed-off shotgun had actually been a full-length shotgun from the start, so as to not create any confusion? Yes. Does that mean they (or we) should have stubbornly stuck with a design that makes certain weapon choices obviously superior? Obviously not. As I stated before, simulation and realism are not wholly unimportant, but when they come into conflict with gameplay balance there are certain tradeoffs that are obviously worth making.

 

[Lithium Flower]

Guys, calm down. All you have to do is wait months/years for me to release my subsubmod for RoSodude's submod. A single line added to the shotgun's description will answer all your questions. For the first time, realism and gameplay will be completely reconciled. The visceral core of Deus Ex will be reinvisioned.

Mark my fucking words.

 

[Ninjerk]

I don't know where you get "staggering" from. One guy cited the design doc and as of this writing there's one brofist for it. I'm all for short shotguns--I think they're way cooler than SPAS-12, Binelli, etc. and full-size shotguns.

 

[Ash]

Couple of things people need to comprehend:

1. GMDX is primarily about following Deus Ex's design principles. That Deus Ex's weaponry design consists of many unrealistic details often right down to the conceptual phase (e.g bullpup pistols. Sabots that aren't actually flachettes) reveals one such principle: they weren't autistic about weapon realism. Balance, convenience, cool entirely fictional designs etc often came first. I am the same: realism in moderation. That the sawed-off is more accurate than its rival I just do not really care. The devs were happy with it, and for the most part so am I. It's integral to its balancing without stooping to any Markie-tier balancing efforts. It is not something that particularly needs "fixing" in the first place. You're free to disagree, but it's not something I'd ever change even if I were still working on the mod, for more reasons than just this actually.
2. The accuracy of weapons in particular is already extremely unrealistic. The whole accuracy system. Yet you're sweating over a minor difference in base accuracy (and possible range) between two guns. Is it a valid point? Yes. Is it important and worth retconning the original design for....not really.

 

[The_Markie]

Couple of things people need to comprehend:

1. GMDX is primarily about following Deus Ex's design principles. That Deus Ex's weaponry design consists of many unrealistic details often right down to the conceptual phase (e.g bullpup pistols. Sabots that aren't actually flachettes) reveals one such principle: they weren't autistic about weapon realism. Balance, convenience, cool entirely fictional designs etc often came first. I am the same: realism in moderation. That the sawed-off is more accurate than its rival I just do not really care. The devs were happy with it, and for the most part so am I. It's integral to its balancing without stooping to any Markie-tier balancing efforts. It is not something that particularly needs "fixing" in the first place. You're free to disagree, but it's not something I'd ever change even if I were still working on the mod, for more reasons than just this actually.
2. The accuracy of weapons in particular is already extremely unrealistic. The whole accuracy system. Yet you're sweating over a minor difference in base accuracy (and possible range) between two guns. It's it a valid point? Yes. Is it important and worth retconning the original design for....not really.

I do want to apologize if it came out hostile, there's no need to have or enforce quality and/or strict principles in modding, and there shouldn't be. As long as you're happy with what you came up with then it's A ok .

To be honest, I think that's what modding is about, where you're happy to inject your personal feelings into a game and share a working state among people and have them enjoy it with you.

Finally, I think it's quite absurd to ask a modder to hold any impactful degree of integrity, authenticity or transparency towards the source materials when such modder is only doing it for fun and in no way attempting to pass their mod off as any sort of improvements over the original.

So I do want to rectify my previous unfair advancements.

PS: I've looked over the links you provided and I have to second their usefulness, which caught me off guard by showing how much I've missed over the years. I think a lot of modders/amateur designers (myself included) nowadays seem to be lacking on both efforts and wits put into any balancing process for their "things".

Symptons include them not even reading into the materials they're trying to alter, not exerting efforts into research, or even as terrible as refusing to distinguish between their personal opinions and past intentions echoing through time's distortion.

I feel guilty for such act but at the same time relieved that you have a variety of helpful internet articles at your disposal, like bullets in a revolver, which always sits ready to clear away any ignorance, bridging the laymans and the incline.

 

[Ash]

You're such a butthurt little bitch. How long has it been, half a year? And you're still obsessing over a mod you haven't played and trying to get "revenge" for the schoolings you clearly deserve. You're a strange pathetic little man.

 

[Lithium Flower]

Let's put The_Markie and his pedantry in perspective: in his own mod, Vanilla Matters, we see the following skills:

Weapons: Precision
A collection of marksman weapons.

Covers: Sniper Rifle, Mini-Crossbow, Stealth Pistol.

Weapons: Ballistic
Deals with the rest of the guns.

Covers: Pistol, Assault Rifle, Assault Shotgun, Sawed-off Shotgun.

Ergo, in Markie's mod sniper rifles, crossbows, and stealth pistols are not, in fact, ballistic weapons. Really makes one think.

The_Markie, friend, would you care to perhaps re-arrange the affairs of your own house before invading that of your good neighbor, slinging accusations of inadequacy thinly veiled by the lowest form of wit? Or are you one of poor character, a dogged hypocrite who beholds a mote in your brother's eye without noticing a beam within your own wretched oculus, a cur who of the seven deadly sins finds envy most particular? Aye, fie upon ye, dog! Sblood, thou stinkard, I’ll learn ye how to gust... wolde ye swynke me thilke wys? Dhonas ’s dholas ort, agus leat-sa!

 

[ColCol]

Started a new game with the mod. Very nice mod. I highly recommend it to anyone replaying deus ex.

 

[The_Markie]

Something something

Hey vsauce, it's me Markie the developer of VMDX here again.

Hey, in an unrelated topic, remember how in vanilla Deus Ex, the Assault Gun, the Assault Shotgun and the Sawed-Off Shotgun are all listed under Weapons: Rifle despite not qualifying to be rifles.

Hey, in an unrelated topic, remember how in vanilla Deus Ex, the Mini Crossbow is listed under Weapons: Pistol despite not being a pistol.

Well that's enough unrelated topics for today, now it's time for a barrage of insults using a dead language:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

 

[Lithium Flower]

Something something

Hey vsauce, it's me Markie the developer of VMDX here again.

Hey, in an unrelated topic, remember how in vanilla Deus Ex, the Assault Gun, the Assault Shotgun and the Sawed-Off Shotgun are all listed under Weapons: Rifle despite not qualifying to be rifles.

Hey, in an unrelated topic, remember how in vanilla Deus Ex, the Mini Crossbow is listed under Weapons: Pistol despite not being a pistol.

I do want to apologize if it came out hostile, there's no need to have or enforce quality and/or strict principles in modding, and there shouldn't be. As long as you're happy with what you came up with then it's A ok .

To be honest, I think that's what modding is about, where you're happy to inject your personal feelings into a game and share a working state among people and have them enjoy it with you.

Finally, I think it's quite absurd to ask a modder to hold any impactful degree of integrity, authenticity or transparency towards the source materials when such modder is only doing it for fun and in no way attempting to pass their mod off as any sort of improvements over the original.

So I do want to rectify my previous unfair advancements.

PS: I've looked over the links you provided and I have to second their usefulness, which caught me off guard by showing how much I've missed over the years. I think a lot of modders/amateur designers (myself included) nowadays seem to be lacking on both efforts and wits put into any balancing process for their "things".

Symptons include them not even reading into the materials they're trying to alter, not exerting efforts into research, or even as terrible as refusing to distinguish between their personal opinions and past intentions echoing through time's distortion.

I feel guilty for such act but at the same time relieved that you have a variety of helpful internet articles at your disposal, like bullets in a revolver, which always sits ready to clear away any ignorance, bridging the laymans and the incline.

 

[agris]

agris What's the rationale behind SOS doing more damage at close range? Even if all the pellets hit, it seems like there would be less energy since there isn't as much time for the gas pressure to build up before the projectiles exit the barrel.

IMO, they should either do the same damage at close range, or the sawed-off should do a bit more as in the vanilla implementation. The biggest problem is that they have the same range. The sawed-off's range should be 50, it should be a close quarters weapon. The slower firing time compared the assault shotgun makes perfect sense. Even the higher baseline accuracy makes sense if that's an approximation for the fact that at short range, a sawed off shotgun would have a much wider impact area, thus it's easier to hit things. Again, the problem comes with the range being set to 150, same as the assault. The higher base accuracy of the sawed off then makes it a more precision weapon at longer distances, a completely laughable notion. Might as well have a pistol shooting rockets.

Since in vanilla the sawed off does more damage, has a lower capacity and a slower rate of fire, it seems the optimal thing to do is just lower the range and don't touch anything else.

Ash & RoSoDude Is there a pellet spread calculation for shotgun's w/ buckshot? As in, does the game calculate where each pellet lands, and if so, is that determined by player skill + the weapon accuracy stat? Tell me why I'm wrong and that the sawed off shouldn't just have it's max range decreased.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

You and your logic.

 

[Lithium Flower]

AFAIK the tightness of the choke plays a more significant part in narrowing the shotgun's spread than the barrel does. Again, someone (at the very worst case scenario, me) just has to change the sawed-off's description to something like "The sawed-off, pump-action shotgun features a tight choke, making it relatively accurate despite short barrel length," and the assault's to "particularly effective in urban combat, the assault shotgun has an open cylinder choke resulting in wide blasts at close range" or something similar.

 

[agris]

AFAIK the tightness of the choke plays a more significant part in narrowing the shotgun's spread than the barrel does. Again, someone (at the very worst case scenario, me) just has to change the sawed-off's description to something like "The sawed-off, pump-action shotgun features a tight choke, making it relatively accurate despite short barrel length," and the assault's to "particularly effective in urban combat, the assault shotgun has an open cylinder choke resulting in wide blasts at close range" or something similar.

That's insane, if you've sawed off the end.. you have no threads to place a choke. That's what MAKES IT A SAWED OFF! No restriction on the spread, just the barrel ID.