Deus Ex Gnidrologist vs CyberP on Deus Ex

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

I enjoyed DXHR (have played through it several times now), but the art style is very derivative. I realize most video game art direction is, but with DXHR it was a bit too on the nose. The game lacked any sort of subtlety. The characters were transparent caricatures and the themes of the game boiled down to tropes. There was very little originality put into it. It's like their inspirational source material for the game, loosely applied it to the DX universe, and decided that was good enough.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the game, but that's because I saw a lot of cyberpunk dystopia stuff I loved from other media. I'll still buy the next Deus Ex, but it's not interesting enough for me to buy on release or pre-order. I'll be buying it on a steam sale once the "director's cut" or whatever is released.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I enjoyed DXHR (have played through it several times now), but the art style is very derivative. I realize most video game art direction is, but with DXHR it was a bit too on the nose. The game lacked any sort of subtlety. The characters were transparent caricatures and the themes of the game boiled down to tropes.

You mean, just like the first game? Usually the camp and cliches are regarded with nostalgic tenderness, when looking back at DX, but in HR those same things are suddenly a bad thing. Codex gonna codex, i guess.

There was very little originality put into it. It's like their inspirational source material for the game, loosely applied it to the DX universe, and decided that was good enough.

It's obvious that with HR they tried to make the game that seems as similar in all things DX as it can be, to the point, where they have the prequel version of JC Denton in it. They knew how bad IW was received by hardcore fans, which was partly down to the fact that it was very un-DX-ey in many parts, including exposition, location design and main protagonist. Now that they made it similar as fuck, it's also not-ok.

Honestly, what in fuck do people here expect from a next Deus Ex game?

 

[CyberP]

Honestly, what in fuck do people here expect from a next Deus Ex game?

How about for it to not be popamolified, for everything not to be fucking orange, to have better C&C, to have better level design, better plot, better balanced game systems, more interactive environments, stronger simulation design, an xp system that isn't retarded, and for the game to just be bigger and better in general. And that's all DX1 comparisons; things that DX1 did far better, and only a quick summary of them. How about for it to actually improve upon DX in some way other than natural engine-based advancements? Sure you could say the first person convos improve upon the DX formula, you could say more detailed levels were something DX needed (but not in place of interactivity), but there really isn't much else that if transferred to DX1 genuinely would have made it a better game.

It is no Immersive Sim. It belongs in the Deus Ex: Invisible War and Bioshock categories, although due to it being the team's first game and probably better than those utter shameful sellouts it can stand a little taller. If the next one even reaches classic Immersive Sim quality, let alone surpasses it, I'll bow down to the French-Canards. For now, only the modding scene is making actual DX-worthy design progress.

 

[Jasede]

^
lol

 

[Gnidrologist]

How about for it to not be popamolified, for everything not to be fucking orange, to have better C&C, to have better level design, better plot, better balanced game systems, more interactive environments, stronger simulation design, an xp system that isn't retarded, and for the game to just be bigger and better in general. And that's all DX1 comparisons;

Let's see.
Deus Exe, poor shooter with retarded AI,
everything is blue & grey,
has just as much C&C as HR, which mean not hella much,
have the same style and scope of level design (did you lack vents to be stuck in or smth?),
has equally okay-ish, but not great plot for what it's worth (campy cyberpunk conspiracy romp),
balance and interactivity is the same, for exception that HR is actually a lot harder on ''medium'' than DX + you even have the silly ''whacha dooin in woman's bathroom?'' joke back, which is what DX ''interactivity'' encompassed to in a nutshell,
there is NO ''simulation design'' in any of the games whatsoever and
XP system is actually better than in original DX, because it has more skills and sub-skills via augs, than augs + skills (as if anyone invested in anything but pistols anyway) in original.
Only problem maybe is that if you grind you can basically have all of them by the end of the game (my estimation, haven't finished it yet).

How about for it to actually improve upon DX in some way other than natural engine-based advancements?

Then say what needs to be improved in particular, not pull nonsense out of your typical modder arse. HR is a carbon copy of DX in all aspects with improved graphics. Improvements would mean some sort of change in the classical DX design. If ''needs to be bigger and better'' is all you can say then lol.

It belongs in the Deus Ex: Invisible War and Bioshock categories

I actually played through IW right before now to have perspective in plot continuity and series as a whole. My judgement on your perspective is:

Better go back and make version nr.45738456767 of your useless spergmod for DX. Reading your bullshit is painful.

 

[GrainWetski]

I do remember hating the 3rd person cover system and canned take downs in the original Deus Ex.

 

[Infinitron]

I do remember hating the 3rd person cover system and canned take downs in the original Deus Ex.

Time to bring back this classic:

 

[Gnidrologist]

I do remember hating the 3rd person cover system and canned take downs in the original Deus Ex.

The sarcasm doesn't work, because popamole or not, DX is a shitty action game. Besides, there's no difference between canned or uncanned takedowns as the action you do before that is 1:1 same. Sneak from the back, push button, something awesome happens. And the takedown animations are actually p. badass, so where's the problem?

The only sort of bad thing about cover system gameplay wise is that you're allowed to see too much while seemingly being entirely behind the wall. Then again, you could pan camera sideways and see too much in old shooters/stealth games too. Hitman series come to mind.

 

[Carrion]

It's obvious that with HR they tried to make the game that seems as similar in all things DX as it can be, to the point, where they have the prequel version of JC Denton in it.

What?

The similarities between the two games are mostly pretty superficial. It feels like the devs of Human Revolution had some kind of a check list to make it feel like a "Deus Ex game", and after including those things they just did what they wanted with the game. Both stealthy and non-stealthy approaches? Check. Augmentations? Check. City hubs based on real-life locations? Check. Illuminati? Check. Getting reprimanded for barging into women's bathroom? Check. They managed to include all those elements, but the actual execution was very different from Deus Ex, which could most clearly be seen in the story, the setting and most importantly the level design, which included rather obvious stealth and combat paths through almost every area, very much unlike Deus Ex.

I did like Human Revolution, but it was obvious that they wanted to make a game that was essentially different from Deus Ex from the start, and it came out alright for the most part. At this point I'm kind of hoping that they'll distance themselves even further from the lore of Deus Ex (which is my favorite game) instead of continuing to offer some half-assed fan service for Deus Ex fans while trying to tell a completely different story in a different setting.

 

[tuluse]

You guys are really overrating DX1's story and writing.

Level design was top notch however, while HR was just "ok" which in the context of modern games seems very good.

 

[Jasede]

The parts I like in HR are the ones they didn't take from DX. I like the art-design in the offices. I like the attention to detail in the HQ, and how every place seems to have a sense of... personality. I think these guys would be able to make a pretty good game if they didn't have to make a Deus Ex game.

 

[Gnidrologist]

The similarities between the two games are mostly pretty superficial. It feels like the devs of Human Revolution had some kind of a check list to make it feel like a "Deus Ex game", and after including those things they just did what they wanted with the game. Both stealthy and non-stealthy approaches? Check. Augmentations? Check. City hubs based on real-life locations? Check. Illuminati? Check. Getting reprimanded for barging into women's bathroom? Check. They managed to include all those elements, but the actual execution was very different from Deus Ex, which could most clearly be seen in the story, the setting and most importantly the level design, which included rather obvious stealth and combat paths through almost every area, very much unlike Deus Ex.

So they did all the major staples of DX fine and even improved on level design somewhat, only major difference being setting. (i think setting is also the same, but for obvious reason it feels different, because shit hasn't hit the fan to its fullest yet, as it is only 2020s yet).

I'm kind of hoping that they'll distance themselves even further from the lore of Deus Ex (which is my favorite game) instead of continuing to offer some half-assed fan service for Deus Ex fans while trying to tell a completely different story in a different setting.

Some crave for faithful sequel to their favorite game, some lament devs for touching their holy cow in any way. Some prefer sequel that would evolve its design into uncharted territories, the opposite side are furious if it's not the precise copy of the same thing, only with different story. No way pleasing the Codex. No fucking way.

 

[Spectacle]

The parts I like in HR are the ones they didn't take from DX. I like the art-design in the offices. I like the attention to detail in the HQ, and how every place seems to have a sense of... personality. I think these guys would be able to make a pretty good game if they didn't have to make popamole console trash.

 

[CyberP]

I actually played through IW right before now to have perspective in plot continuity and series as a whole. My judgement on your perspective is:

Your idiotic judgement should be posted on the ign boards, because that's where you belong.

Better go back and make version nr.45738456767 of your useless spergmod for DX. Reading your bullshit is painful.

Enjoy popping moles now. And likewise, the mostly factually incorrect idiocy you write is shameful:

"So they did all the major staples of DX fine and even improved on level design somewhat"

"HR is a carbon copy of DX in all aspects with improved graphics."

everything is blue & grey,
has just as much C&C as HR, which mean not hella much,
have the same style and scope of level design (did you lack vents to be stuck in or smth?),
has equally okay-ish, but not great plot for what it's worth (campy cyberpunk conspiracy romp),
balance and interactivity is the same, for exception that HR is actually a lot harder on ''medium'' than DX + you even have the silly ''whacha dooin in woman's bathroom?'' joke back, which is what DX ''interactivity'' encompassed to in a nutshell,
there is NO ''simulation design'' in any of the games whatsoever and
XP system is actually better than in original DX, because it has more skills and sub-skills via augs, than augs + skills (as if anyone invested in anything but pistols anyway) in original.

And what isn't factually incorrect in there but subjective is the perspective of a tasteless peasant. You are a retard and I should slap some fucking sense into you.

 

[CyberP]

Oh shit, and how did I miss this one:

Besides, there's no difference between canned or uncanned takedowns as the action you do before that is 1:1 same. Sneak from the back, push button, something awesome happens. And the takedown animations are actually p. badass, so where's the problem?

I will share some knowledge in the hopes of you refining your perspective:

Notable differences between the two approaches are as follows:

1. Cutscene stops time. Everyone stands idly by why the game does its awesome.
2. Cutscene is glitchy and teleports opponents.
3. Cutscene doesn't require aiming.
4. Cutscene can be executed from any angle, DX1 sneak attacks only from behind (so you have to have a low profile).
5. Cutscene is tied to an idiotic energy system.
6. Cutscene is a fucking cutscene; a totally unnecessary camera perspective swap.
7. Cutscene can be used for double takedowns, as if the singular takedown wasn't enough.
8. Lethal cutscenes vs nonlethal cutscenes are laughably imbalanced as discussed earlier in the thread. No such problems with DX's takedowns.
9. Cutscene cannot be failed (in DX1 you can miss or your sneak attack may not kill if the attack isn't strong enough).
10. Cutscene replaces a nice selection of melee weapons with retardation.

 

[Gnidrologist]

In DX you have to have crosshair pointed against body of an enemy, that's all. You don't have to be right behind, which would be retarded to begin with. Only valid criticism here is that, indeed, it disrupts the flow and you can be vulnerable after the sequence ends. Then again, you fail to recognize, that you don't even need to do the unarmed cutscene takedowns in HR at all, if you don't want to. You can play it just like DX, using none lethal prods/stun guns or doing head shots with silenced pistol or sniper rifle. The popamole that is added to the game is completely optional, both takedowns and wall hugging. They don't substitute something that WAS in original DX, they simply add additional stuff that was never in the series to begin with. The old stuff, except katanas, are still there.
But you didn't think of that, did you, spergster?

edit: k, just realized there are no melee weapons this time. Stun gun, paralytic rifle is, if you're pacifist, and they work basically in the same vain anyway. Methods of silent lethal take downs are 100% same.

 

[CyberP]

Your black eye after I attempted to slap some sense into you but failed to get through.

There are takedowns in DX1, otherwise known as a sneak attack. You have to behind the NPC, which means you almost always have to be undetected to do so. And how the fuck is that retarded?

"The popamole that is added to the game is completely optional"

The game is entirely comprised of popamole design practices combined with DX concepts. It was designed by people like you, people that lack refined perspective.

 

[Gnidrologist]

There are takedowns in DX1, otherwise known as a sneak attack.

And you have the same in HR. You can stun or kill from sneak mode using stun gun/rifle or silenced pistol/rifle. Duh.

You have to behind the NPC, which means you almost always have to be undetected to do so. And how the fuck is that retarded?

You don't have to be behind in DX. You have to be out of angle of view and preferably having silenced footsteps aug (not obligatory though). You can make sneak attacks from flanks in all DX games. It's kinda funny that someone, who spends years on some spergish mod doesn't even remember how the game mechanics in the game he mods, work.

The game is entirely comprised of popamole design practices

Such as?

 

[CyberP]

Some people are just completely oblivious. This is why we cannot have nice things/true incline unless a nutter like me takes a stand.

 

[Gnidrologist]

You are nutter, because it's you who's completely oblivious. You made several factual errors regarding DX, couldn't explain what's so popamole about HR besides the optional and ignorable one, and yet somehow regard that as ''taking a stand''.

 

[Ninjerk]

You are nutter, because it's you who's completely oblivious. You made several factual errors regarding DX, couldn't explain what's so popamole about HR besides the optional and ignorable one, and yet somehow regard that as ''taking a stand''.

Needs explanation why a game with sticky cover is "popamole"

 

[Gnidrologist]

As i said, you can avoid using it if you want. The classical crouch stance still works like in pre-popamole games. :shrugs:
I personally don't see what's so infuriating about this. It's only weakness is that it allows for unrealistically good view of almost whole area around you. This is my first popamoler so i can only judge from HR. Don't know how it works in other cover shooters, but Codex seem to overreact about it a bit.

 

[CyberP]

You are nutter, because it's you who's completely oblivious. You made several factual errors regarding DX, couldn't explain what's so popamole about HR besides the optional and ignorable one, and yet somehow regard that as ''taking a stand''.

Couldn't explain, or couldn't be bothered to waste my time explaining? I already gave you a run down of the takedowns. You want me to do that for every mechanic and system and expose the trash for what it is?

Taking a stand: I was referring to my modding work, and how businesses only want to cater to your kind as you are so prevalent.
These back and forths are just me trying to save you from the popamole life and set you on your first step to enlightenment.

"You made several factual errors regarding DX"

Of course I did not.

 

[Ninjerk]

As i said, you can avoid using it if you want. The classical crouch stance still works like in pre-popamole games. :shrugs:
I personally don't see what's so infuriating about this. It's only weakness is that it allows for unrealistically good view of almost whole area around you. This is my first popamoler so i can only judge from HR. Don't know how it works in other cover shooters, but Codex seem to overreact about it a bit.

If you have an enemy on the other side of a waist-high wall (I tested this in the Montreal news station or w/e it is), sticky cover will keep them from seeing you, but unsticking from the cover will reveal you (even if you're otherwise pressed against the obstacle).

 

[Gnidrologist]

Never noticed that. Maybe it depends on whether there are some other shit, like furniture or flower vase in between. I've been flanked even when wall hugging several times and only delay in detecting is because foe doesn't always walk with the line of sight immediately aimed at my particular spot. If that's the only complain then it's kinda weak.
I believe my complain (too large field of view) is the only that may takeaway certain amount of challenge and fact that spec-op guys or even cops usually hug walls before ambushing foes instead of simply squatting near them kinda tells the story on it's own.

I reckon that popamoling is worse in pure shooters that simply force one to use the cover system or be busted (haven't played any so far), but for stealth game, where the protag is super-duper spec-op ghost killer, who can neutralize giant compound filled with highest quality mercs, while they don't even know what hit them, it's more apt than perching along the floor. Everything depends on implementation. The idea as such isn't really stupid imo. Make wall hugging not allow you to see what's on the other side unless you peak/lean, for example.