Good Doom/Heretic/Hexen WADs

[lightbane]

It's not HDoom, it's another of his snowflake projects MGQ3D, inspired from a porn VN about monsters. While I can admire the skill, it seems kind of a waste to , well, waste time on a barely-legal Japanese thing that an exceedingly small number of people are gonna stomach. He did a shitton of sprite work and even maps, though they are all kinda amateurish, bar the final boss fight that shows a tad of brilliance in design.
Just a tad.

Oh, that thing, Monster Girl Quest, something so bad even the Japanese find it too niche, and extra-bad if you compare it with the original source. No idea why that game has such obsessive followers though.

As for the MK2 mod, it looks cool, but was it worth it?

 

[Kutulu]

Are there any stalker or metro inspired wads? Like serious in tone and almost tactical?^^

I know this isnt the optimal engine for this.... but im easy to impress.

 

[unfairlight]

Are there any stalker or metro inspired wads? Like serious in tone and almost tactical?^^

I know this isnt the optimal engine for this.... but im easy to impress.

If you are willing to play a completely different game then I suggest Total Chaos. It's not Doom at all and is basically a total conversion of the GZDoom engine, but it does have a similar feel to that game.

 

[Kutulu]

Ok, played that, its still really early in development (hence alpha) but thoroughly impressive.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Gave a couple of classic WADs a go:

Remember when you were a kid and you were drawing a house, and it would be disproportionally huge? Eternal Doom is like that. Long-ass corridors and huge chambers, but then an almost anal approach to key- and switch-hunting. While there are some clever sections here, I gave up at about Map08 or something, I just wasn't having fun with this one.

Requiem is considered a classic because it did some truly neat things with the Doom engine back in the 'early days'. Unfortunately it has aged badly. The order of levels is completely out of whack, The build-up in enemy and weapon progression is too slow, and what at first appears to be connective levels (the start of the next level sharing traits with the end of the previous one) quickly falls apart. I use a teleport to end one hell-ish level, only to find myself standing on a toilet in the next one! The only challenge brought forth by the maps is having to force the player to look up a walkthrough to progress through the levels.

You want to create a convoluted series of events so that players progress through your creation? That's nice, but check to see if you're in the right game first. Doom is not the venue for hunting for hidden buttons... even if you have to shoot it on a pillar across a room.

And ironically enough, the only time I was short on ammo was during Map29 - and when I progress to Map30 with my low ammo supplies, I'm greeted by a Super Shotgun and little more before being pitted against the Icon of Sin in a funnel-esque design - meaning that all the monsters it spawns are placed between it and you in a cramped space. Interesting challenge, but by this point I just wasn't having it.

I don't recommend either WAD for playing, but both WADs are almost quintessential resources for budding level designers looking to pick up a few tips and tricks, so there's that.

 

[Ash]

Why in the world Raven Software thought 4 weapons per class was a good idea in Hexen I'll never know. Combat is far too repetitive and simplistic as a result.

Happy to discover the switch hunt tedium is a little overstated though. It can be confusing on occasion, but typically there's just enough intuition and logic involved. It's still not great in this regard, but far preferable to modern level design.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Why in the world Raven Software thought 4 weapons per class was a good idea in Hexen I'll never know.

Happy to discover the switch hunt tedium is a little overstated though. It can be confusing on occasion, but typically there's just enough institution and logic involved. It's still not great in this regard, but far preferable to modern level design.

Thank god for them mods amirite? I hear there are some awesome Heretic ones, but I have not delved into that pool yet. Some day. Gotta save those little nuggets of joy for a rainy evening when I want to slit my wrist, so I need a quick dopamine rush.

How interested would the Codex be in a /pol style mod but less retarded? It would feature a compilation of various map packs as well.

 

[Ash]

Heretic doesn't suffer from this problem. Has the same # of weapons as Doom.

As for Hexen mods to add combat variety that is also well-made and intending to be relatively faithful...I've found no such thing.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Heretic doesn't suffer from this problem. Has the same # of weapons as Doom.

Oh yes, let's take a look at the Heretic arsenal.

Reskinned fist from Doom
Reskinned chainsaw from Doom
Reskinned pistol from Doom
Shotgun replaced with the crossbow, which is a nice weapon
Reskinned minigun from Doom
Reskinned rocket launcher from Doom
Can't even remember what the sixth weapon was
BFG replacement fires a large, slow-moving bouncing projectile that (IIRC) can split into smaller projectiles
If I missed any weapons, it's because I can't remember them. See below.

The problem with Heretic's arsenal is that it's dull. Dull equals forgettable. Quantity doesn't automatically trump quality.

Now compare that to the Hexen weapons. Each class has a smaller arsenal, but each part of it is well thought out, giving each character a different playstyle as a result.

The Fighter has the best starting weapon and prefers to get up close and personal. The Mage has the weakest starting weapon but it's ranged and has infinite ammo, so he has to keep his enemies at a distance. The poor Cleric is left bashing at his enemies with a spiked club until they die of boredom. But as the classes get more weapons, their power 'status' changes. The Fighter, while still powerful, will be simply dwarved by the damage output of the Mage (Bloodstorm to the face = Death) while the Cleric has the 'I Win'-weapon of the game with the Wraithverge.

Also, the Flechettes act differently depending on which class is using them. This adds the fifth weapon to each class. Then there's stuff like the Chickenator, the pocket Minotaur and the force push to flesh out the arsenal even further.

All this before we get to the point that Hexen's combat is designed to be less 'point-and-click' and more tactical than in other FPS games. I wouldn't say that it's a full-blown success in that regard, but they did a decent job of it.

 

[Ash]

I've not played Heretic past the first level, there's no misunderstanding of quantity vs quality on my part. I was simply stating it doesn't suffer from such a limited arsenal.

Currently in Hexen I am 4 or so hours in (second hub) and only have two weapons (mage): an infinite ammo crystal staff, and an ice spell. The ice spell is borderline worthless, I've tested it against numerous enemies and it's only better than the crystal staff against the centuars with shields, yet even then their shields deflect the projectiles back if you're not careful, which doesn't happen with the staff. Not only does the staff have infinite ammo, pinpoint accuracy, faster projectile speed and a higher rate of fire, but the projectile also penetrates enemies allowing it to deal massive damage if you line enemies up in a row (which is cool). It's just better in 97.5% of all encounters. So I may as well just have the one weapon...which has infinite ammo. Man I hope the latter two as of yet discovered weapons are better balanced. Currently the game isn't offering quality nor quantity. Give me 8 doom clone weapons over this repetitive one weapon infinite ammo combat anyday.
Yes, the inventory items like flechettes and what not keep it from being completely repetitive, yet still.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Took a look at a couple more WADs:

"Memento Mori" is hailed to be one of the 'greats' of Doom modding. Personally I found it at least a good one, not doing anything wrong, but not really standing out either. It was fun overall, though a little heavy on ambushes at the start. One item of note is that the WAD is designed for co-op play, as there are a few... odd design decisions going on here, especially if you're soloing the levels.

The biggest one of them being MAP30, where I wonder what the fuck these guys were thinking, if at all.

As every seasoned Doom player knows, killing the final boss in Doom 2 involves shooting the exposed brain of a gigantic demon in the split second that your rocket aligns with the opening on its forehead while riding an elevator upwards. This is a tricky shot to pull off in vanilla Doom, but any sourceport that allows for full mouselook will make it piss-easy. MM, however, was released before such sourceports existed, so I had to check to see exactly what was going on with the Icon of Sin here.

Firstly you start on one end of a large, open level where you have to deal with a bunch of Cacodemons and two Spiderbosses. Nothing too much to worry about since they're far away, but once they're gone the level is mostly quiet and empty until you 'activate' the Icon of Sin. But first you must reach and activate the 'launch platform' which requires the blue key. Once the platform is activated you'll realize that the same tactic must be used here as in Doom 2, except now there's a small square set up facing the Icon to act as a targeting reticule. How neat. Except that's not all.

Beyond the exposed brain of the Icon of Sin is a Cyberdemon. Yes, this brain fires back! So first he needs to be killed. Once that's done, there are three small walls moving vertically up and down to block any incoming rockets aimed at the brain. And remember, you can only fire through the reticule at the brain while the lift is riding up, otherwise you must wait until it lowers and rises again.

That's gonna take dozens, if not hundreds of rockets, to finally kill the damn thing. Fortunately there are literally hundreds of rockets lying in two special 'ammo rooms' next to the launch pad. And don't forget, the Icon will be spewing out demons the whole time. Both Death Stars has less protection than this thing.

Overall: Memento Mori is worth playing with friends, but get ready for a chore on the final level.

Still undeterred, I checked out "Memento Mori 2" as well. Didn't get further than MAP04 before coming across a 'co-op only' snag in the level, effectively ending my playthrough. But on a hunch, I warped to MAP30 and decided to see what the Icon of Sin was up to there. I saw a need for three keys to lower a wall directly in front of the Icon, and inside there was a tiny hole moving horizontally back and forth, so I realized I wasn't missing anything much and quit there.

Overall: Seemingly not doable solo, and the final level is even worse than in the first mod. Caution is advised.

Finally I checked out "Whispers of Satan", a highly-rated megawad that I otherwise had no idea about. In terms of architecture this one gets a great deal many things right, but those are often let down by the repetetive and formulaic level layouts. Almost every level starts out with [Starting Room]+[Central Hub containing at least three paths, of which at least two need keys]+[Each path being long and winding and leading to a key]+[Key room is a secondary hub with a 'Quadruple Lock'-mechanic]+[Four paths with a switch at the end of each, and all need to be pushed to get key]. Once past all three colored doors, there's usually a room or two before the exit that involve a big battle.

I know that the above description applies to every Doom level ever made, but the aim is to try to hide the formula, not make the player notice it. Well these guys sure didn't bother with that. Their intentions are laid bare for all to see, and there's rarely any deviation from that. MAP12 is one exception, but that's because it's nothing but traps upon traps, and MAP32 is a gigantic Wolfenstein 3D-level that'll bore you to death. Another infuriating aspect of this WAD is how they place items - they're either tucked away in the corner, or placed right in the middle of a narrow passageway so you can't avoid picking it up. Most people won't care about such things, but there are times when I need every damn shot from an ammo pick-up, so having 592 energy ammo and being forced to pick up a badly-placed Energy Cell Pack quickly gets annoying.

But if you stick with this WAD the maps do get better, at least in appearance. By the time the Hell maps roll round you'll see some really cool sights, especially in the ceilings. MAP25 is probably the best map in this WAD. Beyond that it doesn't do anything majorly wrong - but I have played better WADs than this one.

Overall: Alright WAD to play with, though level designers may get more out of it than players.

 

[Average Manatee]

I've not played Heretic past the first level, there's no misunderstanding of quantity vs quality on my part. I was simply stating it doesn't suffer from such a limited arsenal.

Currently in Hexen I am 4 or so hours in (second hub) and only have two weapons (mage): an infinite ammo crystal staff, and an ice spell. The ice spell is borderline worthless, I've tested it against numerous enemies and it's only better than the crystal staff against the centuars with shields, yet even then their shields deflect the projectiles back if you're not careful, which doesn't happen with the staff. Not only does the staff have infinite ammo, pinpoint accuracy, faster projectile speed and a higher rate of fire, but the projectile also penetrates enemies allowing it to deal massive damage if you line enemies up in a row (which is cool). It's just better in 97.5% of all encounters. So I may as well just have the one weapon...which has infinite ammo. Man I hope the latter two as of yet discovered weapons are better balanced. Currently the game isn't offering quality nor quantity. Give me 8 doom clone weapons over this repetitive one weapon infinite ammo combat anyday.
Yes, the inventory items like flechettes and what not keep it from being completely repetitive, yet still.

Mage is probably the worst class if you're looking for interesting gameplay. Warrior and Cleric are both significantly better since their infinite use weapons are melee, necessitating good tactics and knowing when to switch to a range ability.

I'd also recommend playing on the nightmare-equivalent. Unlike Doom's nightmare there's no cheap respawning enemies, you just get more aggressiveness. Especially if playing Mage you need this.

 

[Ash]

Got a bit bored/annoyed and moved onto Hexen 2...where things are just as annoying. Still will probably complete them both though. Way better than most modern shit.

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

This year's cacoawards.
https://www.doomworld.com/24years/

 

[lightbane]

Eh, this year's awards are not so good IMO barring the multi-weapon pack and the doom alpha mod, and of course the latter has to have a "politically correct" squad of playable characters for no other reason than to get SJW points, considering that the differences between each character are minimal. of Doom modding.

 

[Siveon]

Eh, this year's awards are not so good IMO barring the multi-weapon pack and the doom alpha mod, and of course the latter has to have a "politically correct" squad of playable characters for no other reason than to get SJW points, considering that the differences between each character are minimal. of Doom modding.

Doom Delta was inspired by characters made in the Doom Bible. The Doom Bible being made in 1992, before "SJW" as we know it, although you could make a case for it being a typical example of 90's inclusiveness. Either way, it's not political, it's still Doom.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Well, I've been playing the TNT: Revolution 2 WAD in Brutal Doom since seeing the Cacoawards... and I'm having an absolute blast with it.

MAP01 alone was clever, but MAP08 plays the Song of the Minigun as it has ~300 enemies, with 90% of them being (former) humans. The carnage was glorious!

I get the feeling this was was made for Brutal Doom.

 

[Eyestabber]

I'm currently enjoying Project Brutality + Hell on Earth Starter Pack. I finished both Doom and Doom 2 with Brutality and now I'm going for HoE. I'm enjoying it so far.

Any other good total conversions?

 

[Baron Dupek]

 

[Bigg Boss]

Heretic or Hexen?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Just finished TNT: Revilution. This megawad gets my seal of approval, and I still swear that it's made with Brutal Doom in mind, even though it keeps to the themes of the original TNT: Evilution wad.

Highlights are the aforementioned MAP01 and MAP08, as well as MAP21 and MAP28, but MAP30 also offers some surprises. For once there's no constant stream of demons being spawned in there, but what you get instead will keep you on your toes. MAP32 also deserves special mention for its brilliant idea and execution.

EDIT: Just gonna add to this post instead of making a new one:

I've been playing around with the Brutality mod (3.0, which is currently in testing, so take this somewhat with a grain of salt) and I'm not that impressed.

It adds lots of new weapons and lots of new enemies... but to someone who's been playing the Aeons of Death-mod for years now, this is all old hat. What little the mod adds that's original (when compared both to Brutal Doom and Aeons of Death) is not worth talking about. The ability to mantle up ledges? Way to break almost every single Doom map made in the past 20+ years. Imps clinging to ceilings now? Personally I didn't like it, but maybe those that want that "Alien"-vibe to their Doom might enjoy it (and for those people I just recommend the AoD-mod anyways, it's in there and it will terrify you when it happens).

Overall: At least give it a try, but don't be afraid to dismiss it for being Too Much.

 

[Eyestabber]

Just finished Hell on Earth Starter Pack with Project Brutality.

Overall amazing experience. Very well designed levels with a cool little overarching story. My only complaint is the inclusion of trick jumps/platforming on some maps. That sucks and the controls are awful for that kind of thing. Tanks also felt cheap and retarded (but thankfully they only show on 2 maps).

As for Brutality being "too much", yes and no. If you already feel like Brutal Doom is "going too far" with the changes, PB probably won't be to your liking. But IMHO if you're looking for a total conversion then PB is the way to go. The new and upgraded weapons are constantly matched by new and upgraded monsters and the whole thing manages to stay fresh all the way to the end. I advise enabling weapon replacements in order to reduce inventory clutter.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

As for Brutality being "too much", yes and no. If you already feel like Brutal Doom is "going too far" with the changes, PB probably won't be to your liking. But IMHO if you're looking for a total conversion then PB is the way to go. The new and upgraded weapons are constantly matched by new and upgraded monsters and the whole thing manages to stay fresh all the way to the end. I advise enabling weapon replacements in order to reduce inventory clutter.

Brutal Doom is only going too far in one place: Adding redundant weapons. The pistol(s), Mancubus Flamethrower, assault rifle and grenades are really everything that's needed in addition to the standard Doom arsenal. There's no need for 3 types of assault rifles, no need for a grenade launcher, no need for 3 types of heavy machine guns and no need for two bizarre variations on the BFG. (And most certainly no need to add more ammo types.)

That leaves two weapons, both of which unbalance the weapon line-up: The assault shotgun and the railgun. I know from experience from AoD that any kind of railgun with a sniper scope in the Doom engine is OP, and this one is no exception. The assault shotgun... feels off somehow. It actually does less damage per shot than the standard shotgun, so the only reason it outperforms it is due to the stun lock/rapid fire-combo.

As for Brutality - the weapons do NOT match the monsters. Monsters are arranged into tiers, and in most cases it works out quite well. One notable (and very common) exception is Pinky Demon. His Tier 4 (the maximum) is the CyberPinky with mechanical legs. This one is nothing but an HP sponge, it adds nothing to the gameplay except needing between 2x-3x more damage to die. Compare that to (what I think is) the Tier 2 variant, which is a dark grey cyclops thingie with a distortion graphic around it, making it harder to hit properly. Sadly most of the new monsters are pretty disappointing (though Rocket Launcher Humans are always welcome) and are mostly just graphically different with extra HP, but there's one monster in there that gives me the outright heebie-jeebies - (what I assume is) the Tier 4 Arch-Vile. Think Slender Man with noclip enabled.

And the weapons? I see what PB is trying - a weapon for every occasion. This currently translates into about 5 different assault rifles (with only miniscule differences), 2 heavy machine guns, 3 rocket launchers, 3 plasma guns, 2 BFG's, 2 sets of pistols and a nerfed range of 3 shotguns (and a partridge in a pear tree). And many of these weapons have alternative firing modes. And yet it's hard to tell whether the 'standard' or 'upgraded' weapon is better... the starter pistol has an 18-shot mag, a good rate of fire and decent damage, though it's clearly a starter weapon. The "upgrade" to that is the revolver, which only has 6 shots and doesn't do that much more damage to justify the slow rate-of-fire and long reload time. The only sure-fire upgraded weapon I found is the Dragon's Breath-shotgun, which Kills Everything And Their Families.

PB is adding new weapons for no other reason than to add new weapons. If you haven't done so, try playing the Aeons of Death-mod. You'll quickly see what I mean when I say having multiple similar weapons is Nothing New, and will in fact be a Bother. PB only has a fraction of the weapons of AoD, yet has already reached the same point of Bother. PB should actually consider only allowing the player to carry up to four weapons, but let him choose which four weapons they are. It would work out better, considering the style of gameplay it's going for.

 

[Eyestabber]

Unkillable Cat

Wow, you really put a lot of thought into this, huh? I'll try AoD as soon as I get home. As for PB, I agree the mod is really going for that "a weapon for every situation" niche. I just think you need a map pack with varied encounter types to enjoy the full arsenal. See...

And the weapons? I see what PB is trying - a weapon for every occasion. This currently translates into about 5 different assault rifles (with only miniscule differences), 2 heavy machine guns, 3 rocket launchers, 3 plasma guns, 2 BFG's, 2 sets of pistols and a nerfed range of 3 shotguns (and a partridge in a pear tree). And many of these weapons have alternative firing modes. And yet it's hard to tell whether the 'standard' or 'upgraded' weapon is better... the starter pistol has an 18-shot mag, a good rate of fire and decent damage, though it's clearly a starter weapon. The "upgrade" to that is the revolver, which only has 6 shots and doesn't do that much more damage to justify the slow rate-of-fire and long reload time. The only sure-fire upgraded weapon I found is the Dragon's Breath-shotgun, which Kills Everything And Their Families.

PB is adding new weapons for no other reason than to add new weapons. If you haven't done so, try playing the Aeons of Death-mod. You'll quickly see what I mean when I say having multiple similar weapons is Nothing New, and will in fact be a Bother. PB only has a fraction of the weapons of AoD, yet has already reached the same point of Bother. PB should actually consider only allowing the player to carry up to four weapons, but let him choose which four weapons they are. It would work out better, considering the style of gameplay it's going for.

There is a lot of redundancy, true. I think the minigun/HMG have no reason to exist, it should be either or. I would pick the HMG because it's more interesting. The DMR -> Carbine -> LMG line is also overkill. But I disagree on the Pistol -> Magnum. What renders the pistol obsolete is not the revolver alone, but rather the Revolver + Smg. Smg delivers fast fire with low accuracy, high recoil and YUGE dps while the magnum is slow firing, high damage per bullet and highly accurate. The pistol loses its niche completely once you start packing these two. Accuracy is also a thing in PB. Try hitting something at long range with akimbo pistols. You won't hit shit. Grenade launcher is basically a rocket with smaller explosion radius (aka redundant). Shamefully you can't really use the nade launcher to hit those angles like you would with the hand grenade. Missed opportunity there.

As for the BFG, there are actually 3 variants, not 2 :D. You forgot the black hole generator. But, yeah, the railgun outclasses the "standard" bfg so hard it's not even funny.

PB also seems to care about ammo efficiency. For instance, the SMG is VERY ammo inneficient whereas the magnum can dish out the same damage with like 1/4 the ammo. But since most maps (including HoE) have a shitton of ammo, this stat matters very little and you just spam autoshotty/smg to your heart's content.

Question: what does "dragon's breath" actually upgrades? Shamefully, I had that in my HoE game and never noticed any diff. Is it the regular "pump" shotty? The autoshotty secondary fire? What...?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

There is a lot of redundancy, true. I think the minigun/HMG have no reason to exist, it should be either or. I would pick the HMG because it's more interesting. The DMR -> Carbine -> LMG line is also overkill. But I disagree on the Pistol -> Magnum. What renders the pistol obsolete is not the revolver alone, but rather the Revolver + Smg. Smg delivers fast fire with low accuracy, high recoil and YUGE dps while the magnum is slow firing, high damage per bullet and highly accurate. The pistol loses its niche completely once you start packing these two. Accuracy is also a thing in PB. Try hitting something at long range with akimbo pistols. You won't hit shit. Grenade launcher is basically a rocket with smaller explosion radius (aka redundant). Shamefully you can't really use the nade launcher to hit those angles like you would with the hand grenade. Missed opportunity there.

True, SMG is a very strong weapon to have, especially since it uses a different ammo pool than all the other rapid-fire guns. The damage isn't that great, but the stun-lock more than makes up for it.

The Grenade Launcher can be made to fire Acid Grenades, and those literally melt anything they come into contact with. Once you figure out the parabola of the shots, you'll need a mop to finish each level.

As for the BFG, there are actually 3 variants, not 2 :D. You forgot the black hole generator.

Unless I missed getting the 'vanilla' BFG, there are only 2. The BFG Mark IV which can fire 'standard' BFG blast, a chargable laser or set up a shield... and then there's the LOL-tastic black hole generator. The third weapon in that slot is actually a stupidly powerful rapid-fire gun (in both fire modes) that uses energy cells.

Question: what does "dragon's breath" actually upgrades? Shamefully, I had that in my HoE game and never noticed any diff. Is it the regular "pump" shotty? The autoshotty secondary fire? What...?

It upgrades the pump-action shotgun to allow Dragon's Breath shells to be fired instead of buckshot or slugs. It acts just like buckshot, except it also ignites everything that it hits. Another upgrade that Kills Everything is the triple-barreled upgrade for the Minigun. Before the upgrade it chews things apart, but at a much slower rate than the Brutal Doom minigun. After the upgrade it tears everything apart in record time...including your ammo supply.