KickStarter Grim Dawn

[Ismaul]

But then, like 15 years later, I enjoyed greatly Divine Divinity, and recently Path of Exile for its mechanical complexity that somehow remains elegant, and the ability to tinker with your skills and take control of the randomness. I thought I had become a popamole lover. Yet I can't decline to Grim Dawn levels. Is it really shit, or is there something to it I haven't found yet?

See, I'm the opposite. I enjoy Grim Dawn, but I really can't stand Path of Exile, although I'm a Beta Supporter of the game. I fully believe PoE is an excellent game, but I just personally don't like it.

The main thing I dislike about Path of Exile is the loot and crafting system. When I played, the loot was basically just a bunch of rubbish, since for the most part you're expected to laboriously craft your own gear by manipulating it with a series of consumables. Oceans of trash, the tedium of checking piece after piece for a desirable correct socket configuration, and then playing socket Jenga and gambling with rare consumables to slot in the desired skill gems and so on. I didn't play the game for an extremely long time, but I played up to the latest available act of the basic difficulty a couple of times, and not once that entire time did I ever experience the satisfaction and enjoyment of a nice piece of loot dropping from a boss. You have to slather fucking shit all over them before they become good.

That's funny. I personally hated loot in Diablo because it was so random, and basically just +numbers over previous ones, and you just had to wait until the right combination dropped. Just some bullshit bloat, grindy bloat. But Path of Exile managed to tie it in with your build, and give you control over the randomness. Fuck checking the masses of loot for the perfect fitting thing, just make it fit, craft the affixes you need, the sockets, the colors. This is much more fun for me that isn't much of a grinder, and who hates a pure random # generator. Bosses don't give better rares than other monsters, but many top bosses now drop items from a list of uniques that are exclusive to them, so you get that satisfaction. And I personally play for the challenge, not the loot. Fuck loot, loot is but a tool, and I'd rather the tool be in my control. Also, loot filters man, hide most of the crap. I care much more about loot in PoE though, because of the sockets and links that have an impact on the skills you can play and how you support them.

Grim Dawn, in comparison, felt just like random # generator again.

I am not a big fan of the gem system either. When I want to respec at high level to try out something completely new, I either have to trade for high level gems, or I have to painfully level them myselfs. To add insult to injury many gems get significantly better with quality and how do you get that? Drop luck and a few baubles or sell a level 20 one and relevel it anew or buy one which are quite expensive for high level Q20% ones.

In comparison, in Grim Dawn, if you don't like the skills, you most likely have to make a new character, or settle for the skills available to the class combination you chose at first. You can't just try all the skills with one character, and decide after. You can't make a Barbarian that's effective with "caster" skills either. PoE has much more flexibility in that regard. Plus, high level gems are not such a problem. If you're high level, you can buy gems from town vendors that are already leveled, from lvl 11-16. Sure, it's longer to bring a gem from lvl18 to 20, but usually you don't need lvl20, unless it's your main skill gem and damage depends on it, 18 is decent for supports and easy to get. So you've got to trade for one lvl20 gem only, maybe two. As for quality gems, lvl15 Q15% are usually cheap to trade, so just bring them to 20% yourself and lvl them a bit. Pretty simple. And trying something out requires none of that shit, this is if you want to maximize.

 

[Sykar]

But then, like 15 years later, I enjoyed greatly Divine Divinity, and recently Path of Exile for its mechanical complexity that somehow remains elegant, and the ability to tinker with your skills and take control of the randomness. I thought I had become a popamole lover. Yet I can't decline to Grim Dawn levels. Is it really shit, or is there something to it I haven't found yet?

See, I'm the opposite. I enjoy Grim Dawn, but I really can't stand Path of Exile, although I'm a Beta Supporter of the game. I fully believe PoE is an excellent game, but I just personally don't like it.

The main thing I dislike about Path of Exile is the loot and crafting system. When I played, the loot was basically just a bunch of rubbish, since for the most part you're expected to laboriously craft your own gear by manipulating it with a series of consumables. Oceans of trash, the tedium of checking piece after piece for a desirable correct socket configuration, and then playing socket Jenga and gambling with rare consumables to slot in the desired skill gems and so on. I didn't play the game for an extremely long time, but I played up to the latest available act of the basic difficulty a couple of times, and not once that entire time did I ever experience the satisfaction and enjoyment of a nice piece of loot dropping from a boss. You have to slather fucking shit all over them before they become good.

That's funny. I personally hated loot in Diablo because it was so random, and basically just +numbers over previous ones, and you just had to wait until the right combination dropped. Just some bullshit bloat, grindy bloat. But Path of Exile managed to tie it in with your build, and give you control over the randomness. Fuck checking the masses of loot for the perfect fitting thing, just make it fit, craft the affixes you need, the sockets, the colors. This is much more fun for me that isn't much of a grinder, and who hates a pure random # generator. Bosses don't give better rares than other monsters, but many top bosses now drop items from a list of uniques that are exclusive to them, so you get that satisfaction. And I personally play for the challenge, not the loot. Fuck loot, loot is but a tool, and I'd rather the tool be in my control. Also, loot filters man, hide most of the crap. I care much more about loot in PoE though, because of the sockets and links that have an impact on the skills you can play and how you support them.

Grim Dawn, in comparison, felt just like random # generator again.

I am not a big fan of the gem system either. When I want to respec at high level to try out something completely new, I either have to trade for high level gems, or I have to painfully level them myselfs. To add insult to injury many gems get significantly better with quality and how do you get that? Drop luck and a few baubles or sell a level 20 one and relevel it anew or buy one which are quite expensive for high level Q20% ones.

In comparison, in Grim Dawn, if you don't like the skills, you most likely have to make a new character, or settle for the skills available to the class combination you chose at first. You can't just try all the skills with one character, and decide after. You can't make a Barbarian that's effective with "caster" skills either. PoE has much more flexibility in that regard. Plus, high level gems are not such a problem. If you're high level, you can buy gems from town vendors that are already leveled, from lvl 11-16. Sure, it's longer to bring a gem from lvl18 to 20, but usually you don't need lvl20, unless it's your main skill gem and damage depends on it, 18 is decent for supports and easy to get. So you've got to trade for one lvl20 gem only, maybe two. As for quality gems, lvl15 Q15% are usually cheap to trade, so just bring them to 20% yourself and lvl them a bit. Pretty simple. And trying something out requires none of that shit, this is if you want to maximize.

You can respecc skill points and devotion points, so there is plenty of opportunity to change your build, you might not be able to switch from melee to caster but you can change inside the respective character archetype easily.
If you play HC and pumped Physique mostly you can easily switch any way you want.

So no, you do not have an easier time with respecs in PoE, considering that getting the orbs of regret is far more expensive and time consuming than farming aether shards and iron scraps.

 

[DeepOcean]

Yay, necromancer. Occultist + Necromancer will be my new char when the expansion comes out.

Yep, Pet focused occultist + skeleton army, this is the only way to play, I can only enjoy pet classes on Diablo clones, there is something satisfying seeing the most mayhem possible on the screen as possible. Hope they allow for you to keep a persistent skeleton army.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yep, Pet focused occultist + skeleton army, this is the only way to play, I can only enjoy pet classes on Diablo clones, there is something satisfying seeing the most mayhem possible on the screen as possible. Hope they allow for you to keep a persistent skeleton army.

Yeah, I hope it's an ever better version of D2's necro. Necromancy is very rarely done in games and being done well is ever rarer.

 

[Ismaul]

You can respecc skill points and devotion points, so there is plenty of opportunity to change your build, you might not be able to switch from melee to caster but you can change inside the respective character archetype easily.
If you play HC and pumped Physique mostly you can easily switch any way you want.

So no, you do not have an easier time with respecs in PoE, considering that getting the orbs of regret is far more expensive and time consuming than farming aether shards and iron scraps.

Experimentation is a lot costlier in Grim Dawn if you just want to know what are the skills and how they play. You need to make multiple characters for that and level them, and if, like me, you just like to make one and experiment with it and learn the game as you go along instead of spending time to plan and choose a build / gameplay style before even starting to play the game and seeing how skills work, then you're fucked, like I was. PoE allows easy experimentation in comparison. You can try a dozen of skills before you commit any character build resources.

Character flexibility is also much higher in PoE, since classes don't lock you in a limited selection of skills.

 

[Blaine]

That's funny. I personally hated loot in Diablo because it was so random, and basically just +numbers over previous ones, and you just had to wait until the right combination dropped. Just some bullshit bloat, grindy bloat. But Path of Exile managed to tie it in with your build, and give you control over the randomness. Fuck checking the masses of loot for the perfect fitting thing, just make it fit, craft the affixes you need, the sockets, the colors. This is much more fun for me that isn't much of a grinder, and who hates a pure random # generator. Bosses don't give better rares than other monsters, but many top bosses now drop items from a list of uniques that are exclusive to them, so you get that satisfaction. And I personally play for the challenge, not the loot. Fuck loot, loot is but a tool, and I'd rather the tool be in my control. Also, loot filters man, hide most of the crap. I care much more about loot in PoE though, because of the sockets and links that have an impact on the skills you can play and how you support them.

Grim Dawn, in comparison, felt just like random # generator again.

If you think that PoE is less grindy, chances are you've been smoking some dank-ass purp. Those orbs ain't gonna grind themselves.

Realistically, it's a matter of preference and in many ways a case of six of one, half a dozen of the other. It's not as though PoE doesn't have stat modifiers on top of the socket Jenga, and as I recall drops also have quality ratings that affect currency recipe results.

Chaos Orbs are one of the game's most-traded valuable (as opposed to cheap) currencies unless that's changed, and they're used to reroll stat modifiers on rare items. Loot filters or no, you can't just sell unwanted loot; you have to constantly be on the lookout for a matching fucking set of the stuff from an enormous list of recipes. Chaos Orbs are a full set of rares, as I remember. Memorizing completely arbitrary recipe lists isn't my idea of a challenge, it's my idea of annoyance. In addition, chances are you'll NEED player trading to get the most out of this currency system, and this is by design because PoE is an online-only quasi-MMO. Certainly newer players will want to sell the GCPs and such that they find but can't (or shouldn't) use for a while, so that they can acquire things that are more immediately useful to them.

The number of random steps involved in crafting end-game items is huge. It's literally playing a slot machine in most cases. In fact, the only currencies that don't include the word "random" in the description are scrolls of identify and town portal (which don't really count), armorer's scraps and whetstones, and scouring orbs. That's it, everything else is completely random and you can waste a Regal Orb in one go, possibly even ruining the item you're crafting as well if it has to be scrubbed.

In Grim Dawn, you can easily subsist on non-perfect dropped and shop- and faction vendor-purchased gear until the very endgame, at which point you can farm unique legendaries and trade what you don't need via the forum, then add the gems and powders you want as you get them. Crafting fills in some of the rough patches and unlike PoE, only has a minor random component.

Once again though, it's been years since I've played. Maybe it's not as obnoxious now, maybe you don't need to bother with vendor recipe Jenga cross-referencing (or at least not much)... who knows? It's very silly to claim that Grim Dawn is more random. It may feel that way but it isn't, not by a long shot.

 

[Luckmann]

Yay, necromancer. Occultist + Necromancer will be my new char when the expansion comes out.

Yep, Pet focused occultist + skeleton army, this is the only way to play, I can only enjoy pet classes on Diablo clones, there is something satisfying seeing the most mayhem possible on the screen as possible. Hope they allow for you to keep a persistent skeleton army.

Personally, even in an ARPG, I like playing to themes, though, so I hope it's viable to play a pet-focused Occultist/Necromancer that ditches the Hellhound. I just don't think it fits into the aesthetic, but the raven obviously does.

 

[Ismaul]

Chaos Orbs are the one of the game's most-traded valuable (as opposed to cheap) currencies unless that's changed, and they're used to reroll stat modifiers on rare items. Loot filters or no, you can't just sell unwanted loot; you have to constantly be on the lookout for a matching fucking set of the stuff from an enormous list of recipes. Chaos Orbs are a full set of rares, as I remember. Memorizing completely arbitrary recipe lists isn't my idea of a challenge, it's my idea of annoyance. In addition, chances are you'll NEED player trading to get the most out of this currency system, and this is by design because PoE is an online-only quasi-MMO. Certainly newer players will want to sell the GCPs and such that they find but can't (or shouldn't) use for a while, so that they can acquire things that are more immediately useful to them.

The number of random steps involved in crafting end-game items is huge. It's literally playing a slot machine in most cases. In fact, the only currencies that don't include the word "random" in the description are scrolls of identify and town portal (which don't really count), armorer's scraps and whetstones, and scouring orbs. That's it, everything else is completely random and you can waste a Regal Orb in one go, possibly even ruining the item you're crafting as well if it has to be scrubbed.

In Grim Dawn, you can easily subsist on non-perfect dropped and shop- and faction vendor-purchased gear until the very endgame

The thing is, you're thinking about players that want the best items with the highest rolls ever in the game. No one needs that. I've never had that, and killed end game bosses. Perfect items are for autists and no-lifers. Chaos orb spamming to create a rare is a shit strategy, very costly, and it only randomly re-rolls the whole item. You don't need to do the chaos orb recipe either, most good players don't.

To craft a good enough item, you go with the cheap alteration orbs, which you can get a hundred per hour just casually grinding at slow speed, and even by selling basic magic items. You use those orbs to reroll a magic item until you've got the affix you want at a top roll, say the best damage or best armor or whatever. Then you use an augmentation orb to add a random effect, and a regal to add another one (you seem to think regal orbs are a big thing, they aren't, and you don't use many.) Maybe you want two specific affixes with top rolls, so that might require rerolls, but it's still cheap stuff. And after that, there are NPC masters that allow you to choose one effect to add, and that effect can be changed later on. So it's pretty easy to get what you want with an item, as long as you don't want every good affix for your build, and all of them with top rolls. And it is easy to add an effect to an already good item and change it depending on your needs, with master crafting.

Also PoE has a new mode that is solo-self-found, no trading allowed, which is plenty viable because of said crafting system to get what you need instead of waiting for a drop.

If you think that PoE is less grindy, chances are you've been smoking some dank-ass purp. Those orbs ain't gonna grind themselves.

Purp is shit mang, my shit is dank-assier.

 

[Sykar]

You can respecc skill points and devotion points, so there is plenty of opportunity to change your build, you might not be able to switch from melee to caster but you can change inside the respective character archetype easily.
If you play HC and pumped Physique mostly you can easily switch any way you want.

So no, you do not have an easier time with respecs in PoE, considering that getting the orbs of regret is far more expensive and time consuming than farming aether shards and iron scraps.

Experimentation is a lot costlier in Grim Dawn if you just want to know what are the skills and how they play. You need to make multiple characters for that and level them, and if, like me, you just like to make one and experiment with it and learn the game as you go along instead of spending time to plan and choose a build / gameplay style before even starting to play the game and seeing how skills work, then you're fucked, like I was. PoE allows easy experimentation in comparison. You can try a dozen of skills before you commit any character build resources.

Character flexibility is also much higher in PoE, since classes don't lock you in a limited selection of skills.

No, just no. It is piss easy to farm aether shards and iron scraps. I have literally had a dozen complete respecs on my Sorceress. On my four times older Witch in PoE? Maybe 1, and that is stretching it, and I am not counting the free respeccs you get every few months when they drastically change the passive skill tree.
"PoE allows easy experimentation" no, only if you are filthty rich do you have "easy experimentation".
"You can try a dozen builds" meaningless since trying out builds at low levels tell you nothing what they do in endgame.
There are also huge differences between builds were you have more than 4 sockets at your disposal for your main skill.

 

[Ismaul]

No, just no. It is piss easy to farm aether shards and iron scraps.I have literally had a dozen complete respecs on my Sorceress. On my four times older Witch in PoE? Maybe 1, and that is stretching it, and I am not counting the free respeccs you get every few months when they drastically change the passive skill tree.
"PoE allows easy experimentation" no, only if you are filthty rich do you have "easy experimentation".
"You can try a dozen builds" meaningless since trying out builds at low levels tell you nothing what they do in endgame.
There are also huge differences between builds were you have more than 4 sockets at your disposal for your main skill.

Sure, aether shard farming is easy. Still trying out skills is easier in PoE, no need to be rich, I never was. Just socket different shit. No need to respec anything. Unlike Grim Dawn. And those skills are not locked in to a class.

For example, you choose Soldier as main class in Grim Dawn. You need to respec to try skills you didn't select at first, and re-respec if you want to go back to what you had. PoE? Socket different skills, see if you like it, keep it or go back. Now, you've come to your second class choice in Grim Dawn. Not sure? Ain't no trying skills to see what class you want, choose a class, and if you're not happy with the skillset available, make a new character. PoE? Skills aren't tied to class, try whatever.

 

[Sykar]

No, just no. It is piss easy to farm aether shards and iron scraps.I have literally had a dozen complete respecs on my Sorceress. On my four times older Witch in PoE? Maybe 1, and that is stretching it, and I am not counting the free respeccs you get every few months when they drastically change the passive skill tree.
"PoE allows easy experimentation" no, only if you are filthty rich do you have "easy experimentation".
"You can try a dozen builds" meaningless since trying out builds at low levels tell you nothing what they do in endgame.
There are also huge differences between builds were you have more than 4 sockets at your disposal for your main skill.

Sure, aether shard farming is easy. Still trying out skills is easier in PoE, no need to be rich, I never was. Just socket different shit. No need to respec anything. Unlike Grim Dawn. And those skills are not locked in to a class.

For example, you choose Soldier as main class in Grim Dawn. You need to respec to try skills you didn't select at first, and re-respec if you want to go back to what you had. PoE? Socket different skills, see if you like it, keep it or go back. Now, you've come to your second class choice in Grim Dawn. Not sure? Ain't no trying skills to see what class you want, choose a class, and if you're not happy with the skillset available, make a new character. PoE? Skills aren't tied to class, try whatever.

Except a level 1 skill is literally worthless at high levels and getting high level ones (18+) cost quite a bit.
Also you get to high levels fairly quickly and easily. Heck I went to 85 thrice, Conjurer, Sorceress and Warlock in a fraction of the time it took me to get to 82 on my Witch.

Also while it is true you can technically go everything on your characters, not going caster or summoner on Witch is stupid since most of the nodes around her starting node increase spell damage, cast speed, buff minions etc.

If you check out skill guides on PoE forums you will notice that the vast majority of Witch builds are either caster or summoner for obvious reasons. There is iirc not a single physical melee build around.

 

[Ismaul]

Except a level 1 skill is literally worthless at high levels and getting high level ones (18+) cost quite a bit.

I'm not talking about switching quickly to another perfected high level build. I'm talking about experimentation, as in, learning wtf a skill does in practice, so you choose if you want to scale it or not.

And lvl 18-19 skill gems can be found for 1-5 chaos, pretty cheap when you're at the level you can use them.

Also you get to high levels fairly quickly and easily. Heck I went to 85 thrice, Conjurer, Sorceress and Warlock in a fraction of the time it took me to get to 82 on my Witch.

This is just game mastery. I can get high level in PoE pretty fast, much faster than it took me to get to lvl30 in GD, because I know the game.

Also while it is true you can technically go everything on your characters, not going caster or summoner on Witch is stupid since most of the nodes around her starting node increase spell damage, cast speed, buff minions etc.

If you check out skill guides on PoE forums you will notice that the vast majority of Witch builds are either caster or summoner for obvious reasons. There is iirc not a single physical melee build around.

You don't need to take much nodes next to your starting position. Many builds don't, but they're less standard, for sure. Many people tend to play to type. But you can definitely make Marauder casters that are extremely viable. I don't know about how good you can make melee Witches, but I've seen some that use its proximity to AoE nodes, and elementalist ascendancy to spread elemental effects all around.

 

[Blaine]

Actually it's far, far, FAR easier to try out any build you want in GD, because you can download someone's save file or use a save file editor to try out absolutely any skill and gear combination you want at any time. Nothing wrong with that, unless you lack the self-control to separate testing from gameplay; modding is officially supported, and Crate only asks that you not trade illegitimate items with players without disclosure.

Can't do that in an MMO, now can you?

 

[ArchAngel]

No, just no. It is piss easy to farm aether shards and iron scraps.I have literally had a dozen complete respecs on my Sorceress. On my four times older Witch in PoE? Maybe 1, and that is stretching it, and I am not counting the free respeccs you get every few months when they drastically change the passive skill tree.
"PoE allows easy experimentation" no, only if you are filthty rich do you have "easy experimentation".
"You can try a dozen builds" meaningless since trying out builds at low levels tell you nothing what they do in endgame.
There are also huge differences between builds were you have more than 4 sockets at your disposal for your main skill.

Sure, aether shard farming is easy. Still trying out skills is easier in PoE, no need to be rich, I never was. Just socket different shit. No need to respec anything. Unlike Grim Dawn. And those skills are not locked in to a class.

For example, you choose Soldier as main class in Grim Dawn. You need to respec to try skills you didn't select at first, and re-respec if you want to go back to what you had. PoE? Socket different skills, see if you like it, keep it or go back. Now, you've come to your second class choice in Grim Dawn. Not sure? Ain't no trying skills to see what class you want, choose a class, and if you're not happy with the skillset available, make a new character. PoE? Skills aren't tied to class, try whatever.

This is so false you are either lying or an idiot. Builds in PoE are a combination of skills gems, well distributed passive points (including having good jewels to slot into jewel slots), "right" ascendancy class and good gear. Respecing is not just changing skill gems unless those are very similar to what you already used. Some of the build are so specific they usually work only with specific skill gem and only a full scale respec would let you do something else.

I cannot really say how easy it is to respec in GD as I never did big respecing, I never go into GD by already not knowing what I want to play and how to get there.

Actually GD lets you design your own character much easily than PoE. Whenever I did my own builds in PoE I had to do a lot of respecting mid game or at end game because things didn't work and it was always costly and limited.

 

[Ismaul]

Actually it's far, far, FAR easier to try out any build you want in GD, because you can download someone's save file or use a save file editor to try out absolutely any skill and gear combination you want at any time. Nothing wrong with that, unless you lack the self-control to separate testing from gameplay; modding is officially supported, and Crate only asks that you not trade illegitimate items with players without disclosure.

Can't do that in an MMO, now can you?

Downloadable save files is now better design than having mechanics to actually test shit out? FFS we're talking about the game here, not ways to circumvent it. There's also trainers that can give me all the stats and shit.

 

[Ismaul]

No, just no. It is piss easy to farm aether shards and iron scraps.I have literally had a dozen complete respecs on my Sorceress. On my four times older Witch in PoE? Maybe 1, and that is stretching it, and I am not counting the free respeccs you get every few months when they drastically change the passive skill tree.
"PoE allows easy experimentation" no, only if you are filthty rich do you have "easy experimentation".
"You can try a dozen builds" meaningless since trying out builds at low levels tell you nothing what they do in endgame.
There are also huge differences between builds were you have more than 4 sockets at your disposal for your main skill.

Sure, aether shard farming is easy. Still trying out skills is easier in PoE, no need to be rich, I never was. Just socket different shit. No need to respec anything. Unlike Grim Dawn. And those skills are not locked in to a class.

For example, you choose Soldier as main class in Grim Dawn. You need to respec to try skills you didn't select at first, and re-respec if you want to go back to what you had. PoE? Socket different skills, see if you like it, keep it or go back. Now, you've come to your second class choice in Grim Dawn. Not sure? Ain't no trying skills to see what class you want, choose a class, and if you're not happy with the skillset available, make a new character. PoE? Skills aren't tied to class, try whatever.

This is so false you are either lying or an idiot. Builds in PoE are a combination of skills gems, well distributed passive points (including having good jewels to slot into jewel slots), "right" ascendancy class and good gear. Respecing is not just changing skill gems unless those are very similar to what you already used. Some of the build are so specific they usually work only with specific skill gem and only a full scale respec would let you do something else.

I cannot really say how easy it is to respec in GD as I never did big respecing, I never go into GD by already not knowing what I want to play and how to get there.

Actually GD lets you design your own character much easily than PoE. Whenever I did my own builds in PoE I had to do a lot of respecting mid game or at end game because things didn't work and it was always costly and limited.

Man we're talking about experimenting with skills. Trying shit out to see how particular skills play. Not making a fucking finished perfected end-game build. You don't need anything on the tree to try out skill gems in PoE, while you do in Grim Dawn, since the tree gives the skills.

Learn to read before calling others liars or idiots.

 

[Emmanuel2]

Builds in PoE are a combination of skills gems, well distributed passive points (including having good jewels to slot into jewel slots), "right" ascendancy class and good gear.

I think he was just referring to how it was more expensive to respec and try out other skills in GD than in PoE and not the actual builds themselves, of which holds true since you just needed to change gems rather than points. Anyone who played and liked PoE enough to spend time in it is guaranteed to say that respecing builds is way harder.

EDIT: Got ninja'd.

 

[Blaine]

Ismaul If you really need/want to test extensively and frequently, then yes, the ability to quickly create any build you like using third-party tools is superior. You most certainly can't test a complete build in PoE without spending dozens or hundreds of hours playing first; but you don't need a complete build if you just want to test skills, which seems to be where you've shifted your focus now.

This is done with the blessing of the developers. Crate can encrypt equipment files, and did during parts of beta so that third-party tools wouldn't interfere with/complicate bug reporting. Moddability is part of the game's design.

Waffling about "better design" is immaterial. You may not agree with Crate's choice to make respeccing fairly difficult, but it was an intentional choice based largely on how the venerable D2 community feels about respeccing. Alongside this restricted respeccing comes the ability to mod the game and bypass that restriction if you so desire. That's not necessarily superior to PoE's system, but it's sure as shit not worse... unless people lack self-control, that is. I don't, so it's not an issue for me.

 

[ArchAngel]

No, just no. It is piss easy to farm aether shards and iron scraps.I have literally had a dozen complete respecs on my Sorceress. On my four times older Witch in PoE? Maybe 1, and that is stretching it, and I am not counting the free respeccs you get every few months when they drastically change the passive skill tree.
"PoE allows easy experimentation" no, only if you are filthty rich do you have "easy experimentation".
"You can try a dozen builds" meaningless since trying out builds at low levels tell you nothing what they do in endgame.
There are also huge differences between builds were you have more than 4 sockets at your disposal for your main skill.

Sure, aether shard farming is easy. Still trying out skills is easier in PoE, no need to be rich, I never was. Just socket different shit. No need to respec anything. Unlike Grim Dawn. And those skills are not locked in to a class.

For example, you choose Soldier as main class in Grim Dawn. You need to respec to try skills you didn't select at first, and re-respec if you want to go back to what you had. PoE? Socket different skills, see if you like it, keep it or go back. Now, you've come to your second class choice in Grim Dawn. Not sure? Ain't no trying skills to see what class you want, choose a class, and if you're not happy with the skillset available, make a new character. PoE? Skills aren't tied to class, try whatever.

This is so false you are either lying or an idiot. Builds in PoE are a combination of skills gems, well distributed passive points (including having good jewels to slot into jewel slots), "right" ascendancy class and good gear. Respecing is not just changing skill gems unless those are very similar to what you already used. Some of the build are so specific they usually work only with specific skill gem and only a full scale respec would let you do something else.

I cannot really say how easy it is to respec in GD as I never did big respecing, I never go into GD by already not knowing what I want to play and how to get there.

Actually GD lets you design your own character much easily than PoE. Whenever I did my own builds in PoE I had to do a lot of respecting mid game or at end game because things didn't work and it was always costly and limited.

Man we're talking about experimenting with skills. Trying shit out to see how particular skills play. Not making a fucking finished perfected end-game build. You don't need anything on the tree to try out skill gems in PoE, while you do in Grim Dawn, since the tree gives the skills.

Learn to read before calling others liars or idiots.

No you are not. You are comparing GD system which is combination of PoE active and passive skill tree and Ascendancy but only talking about active skill gems in PoE.

 

[Ismaul]

Ismaul If you really need/want to test extensively and frequently, then yes, the ability to quickly create any build you like using third-party tools is superior. You most certainly can't test a complete build in PoE without spending dozens or hundreds of hours playing first; but you don't need a complete build if you just want to test skills, which seems to be where you've shifted your focus now.

Now? I've been talking about trying out how skills play since the beginning, even before I responded to you.

And my attitude is to try the skills while playing, not cheat to try them all and then play. No point in playing then IMO.

 

[Blaine]

"Cheat?"

Now you're just being a dumbfuck. What are we, fifteen years old? I see absolutely no issue with loading a test save in any gameplay-centric game to check the viability/desirability of something in the "real" game. Cheating tools for practically every non-persistent game are just a click away. I've run dedicated servers for sandbox games like ARK or Empyrion before, and I had all the tools at hand to spawn in whatever I wanted, etc.—but I didn't, unless it was necessary to circumvent a bug, to make someone whole after their stuff vanished due to a dropped connection, etc. Actually cheating would indeed ruin the game, so you use those tools sparingly and judiciously.

If simply taking a build or some skills for a test drive would ruin the game for you... well, that is a preference, I suppose, a very objective preference. It barely makes any sense except in the context of you trying to win this stupid argument, but c'est la vie.

You realize that I'm not suggesting you keep the stuff afterwards, right? You delete the save when you're finished. Really, if the end result is the only thing that matters, the game's probably shit anyway. It's not like these are story-based or puzzle-based games in which the ending can be ruined.

 

[Baron Dupek]

You just waste your time.
I got same cheating accusation when told people I use speedhacks from CheatEngine to speed up walking speed in games (RPGs mostly).
They just can't separate these things, just...no.

 

[Blaine]

Oh, I know. Some people seem unable to compartmentalize between the "real" game in which you don't cheat (except to circumvent bugs, etc.) and testing, or else they don't have the self-control to avoid cheating if the method is readily available to them.

I don't have this issue unless it's something dumb that's built into the game's normal mechanics and that you have to actively work not to abuse or exploit. Example: infinite potion ingredients in Morrowind. I'd probably just make a "house rule" to not buy ingredients from a merchant more than once in a 1-hour period, although naturally a mod was made to close that loophole ages and ages ago.

Like it or not PoE fans, PoE's lack of moddability is one of its weaknesses (a trade-off, but still a weakness) and a strength of GD.

 

[Ismaul]

"Cheat?"

Oh fuck the word "cheating".

I'd rather learn the game as I play and experiment as I go, that's how I have fun with aRPGs. I don't like planning how I'm going to play the whole game before doing so, as this removes the fun for me. The whole point of aRPGs for me is in the testing / trying things out as I play. I'm not trying to win an argument, just voicing a grievance that you guys seem to want to dismiss. You like it? Fine. I don't. I also didn't want to search for trainers, saved games and builds before even trying the game to see if it was fun before I invest more time in it.

 

[Blaine]

Path of Exile must be the first aRPG you've ever actually liked, because none of the greats had skill gems you could buy off players (the only way to get them in quantity at a moment's notice) and take for a test drive.

There are disadvantages to the system, even if you prefer it. For example, a player who's actually completely new to the game can't look at a class or mastery tree and see the synergies there. The only way to readily know what skills are available and how they work is to use the Wiki. Progressing normally through the campaign offers occasional choices of skill gems, but those choices are laughably tiny compared to the variety of available paths in PoE by character level 10. Aside from that they're faced with a huge spiderweb of nodes that are all +this stat, +that stat.

I'm not opposed to learning curves generally (I played EVE Online for six years, and I've been playing the X space sim series since 2006; I know a thing or two about learning curves), but the amount of research and game experience necessary to plan ANYTHING as a new player isn't small in PoE. It might pay off 50 hours later once familiarization is achieved, but as with any game feature, there are benefits and drawbacks.