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taxalot

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I think the idea that 'action' needs 'exciting' music to accompany it is a pernicious one that I wish we'd collectively move on from.

Ho, but we have. And not only in action games. This is why it is the other way around that i find pernicious. Games haven't had exciting music for how long now? Its more than i can remember. Multiplayer is partly to blame here, but i think atmosphere fags are also the problem.

I think we lost a lot in music when we moved from MIDI/MOD to Redbook/MP3 with high detailed soundtrack. I am not entirely sure why and do not mistake me : a lot of games still have great music. But they are less memorable. Too generic. In many ways, it is pretty much similar to graphics. What old games couldn't do technically they had to made up with style and good melodies.

I can still whistle to myself all the music from most of the Ultima games, most of the tunes from Lucas Arts adventures classics, but only a few recent tunes come to mind. I find it hard to explain, and some might do it better than me but I believe it is in great part because of the simplicity of the notes, and the very distinctive style of music from that era.
 

Lyric Suite

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Right, and keep in mind that this musical creativity existed as much in western games as it did in eastern games, so we know it wasn't a localized phenomena or a strictly cultural issue. The argument from technical limitation is an interesting one, but i think it might simply be a problem of the decline affecting games on every level.
 

dnf

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i think atmosphere fags are also the problem.
There is such thing as dynamics soundtrack.

It might not work well in some games (like STALKER and games with stealth/sim components) but in others it does (Unreal).
It don't work well in Stalker because the dynamic music is some shitty ass rock(at least it warns you whenever a peep is shooting at you). Dynamic Soundtrack does sound great with games such as Deus Ex and mods, Soul Reaver, Hitman, Thief Gold, Need for Speed III Hot Pursuit, Silent Hill 1-3, Metal Gear Rising,etc... Generally, Dynamic OST is the best way to go, the second best way is playing a CD player, like Quake 2 does. A single track in endless loop like in most games is not desirable and only gets a pass if the music is gud.
 
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I think the idea that 'action' needs 'exciting' music to accompany it is a pernicious one that I wish we'd collectively move on from.

Ho, but we have. And not only in action games. This is why it is the other way around that i find pernicious. Games haven't had exciting music for how long now? Its more than i can remember. Multiplayer is partly to blame here, but i think atmosphere fags are also the problem.

I think we lost a lot in music when we moved from MIDI/MOD to Redbook/MP3 with high detailed soundtrack. I am not entirely sure why and do not mistake me : a lot of games still have great music. But they are less memorable. Too generic. In many ways, it is pretty much similar to graphics. What old games couldn't do technically they had to made up with style and good melodies.

I can still whistle to myself all the music from most of the Ultima games, most of the tunes from Lucas Arts adventures classics, but only a few recent tunes come to mind. I find it hard to explain, and some might do it better than me but I believe it is in great part because of the simplicity of the notes, and the very distinctive style of music from that era.

I'm a proponent of the argument that limitation helps breed creativity; this is certainly how I view the soundtrack situation, and I have similar feelings to yours - old FM / MT32 midi / 8 bit soundtracks were amazingly creative and they had to overcome the technical limitations of their age. In fact I don't even believe it's overcoming limitations as much as being shaped by them in a good way - in the same way that, for example, a particular form of poetry lends itself to a certain mode of expression. I find that e.g. a sonnet exists before its content, and not the other way around, and I think I agree with Poe's Philosophy of Composition in this respect. To think that form limits content in a negative manner is a naïve outlook that is easily disproven by recent examples.

To put it differently, it's difficult to identify any particular strength in composition when there's no end to the horizon of possibilities. It's like going from fixed form poetry to free verse - unless the underlying content is outstanding, it's not as distinctive.

There are good recent soundtracks for sure, Diablo 1, Quake... but I don't think I would consider them "game" soundtracks in any particular way, and I don't identify them with any particular motifs like for instance the Ultima soundtrack (impossible not to be instantly transported to Ultima listening to just the start of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g71VyuYKdVI). I'm not sure exactly how much nostalgia has to do with this.
 

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It don't work well in Stalker because the dynamic music is some shitty ass rock(at least it warns you whenever a peep is shooting at you). Dynamic Soundtrack does sound great with games such as Deus Ex and mods, Soul Reaver
(...)
A single track in endless loop like in most games is not desirable and only gets a pass if the music is gud.
True that.
And DX soundtrack was made by the same guys who made (also dynamic) OST for the seminal atmospherefag FPS, while SR was heavily reliant on atmosphere as well - atmospherefags are definitely NOT to blame.

I maintain that in games where you don't want to give player early warning mechanism dynamic, or at least combat soundtrack can do more harm than good (reason why I always turn off the combat music in STALKER), but in any case single or few looping tracks inevitably get painfully repetitive.

Q2 music is still p. shit, though.
 

dnf

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It don't work well in Stalker because the dynamic music is some shitty ass rock(at least it warns you whenever a peep is shooting at you). Dynamic Soundtrack does sound great with games such as Deus Ex and mods, Soul Reaver
(...)
A single track in endless loop like in most games is not desirable and only gets a pass if the music is gud.
True that.
And DX soundtrack was made by the same guys who made (also dynamic) OST for the seminal atmospherefag FPS, while SR was heavily reliant on atmosphere as well - atmospherefags are definitely NOT to blame.

I maintain that in games where you don't want to give player early warning mechanism dynamic, or at least combat soundtrack can do more harm than good (reason why I always turn off the combat music in STALKER), but in any case single or few looping tracks inevitably get painfully repetitive.

Q2 music is still p. shit, though.
DX shares this flaw too, but it gets a pass for me. I think System Schlock 2 suffers from audio dissonance with part survival horror part pumping style music. SR and Thief Gold have level transition sound changes which contributes to the mood(there is the spectral realm OST in the jewtube, too bad it doesn't have SR2 spectral realm OST). It doesn't need to rely on action triggers all the time.

As for who is to blame and decline, i don't really see decline in game music. One of the best ost's came from recent games such as Lord of Shadows 2 or Revengeance, even the Oblivions have some good songs(Fallout 3 OST sucks shit tough).
 

taxalot

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"The Oblivions" suffer from what I like to call "Jeremy Soule" syndrome, and so do now most games who are not composed by Jeremy Soule and have nothing to do with Bethesda.

It's not that it's bad music , it's just that it's loud and incredibly vulgar. Jeremy Soule cannot tell subtlety from his own butt. A short walk in a forest feels like there is an army accompanying as all instruments go blazing, each one trying to be more epic than the others. Modern games have a hard time staying simple. I do not twenty trumpets when I am clearing my inventory of crap and sorting out which skill I want to improve. Ultima had tunes you could just whistle and hum to yourself without feeling like a weirdo ; Soule's music and a lot of his goons would however make you sound like you want to invade Poland.
 

Lyric Suite

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System Shock 2 is a game that really had no need of a soundtrack, and i usually play it without one.

But the problem is that games that do need a soundtrack don't seem to have any that is worth a shit.
 

Lyric Suite

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Easier how? Do you not agree that music has declined through out the years?

For one, i really liked Doom's soundtrack, the one called "Suspence" probably being among my favored:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cixW6rogZ48

I think the biggest problem with Quake 2 was the lack of variety. It was the same loud metal tracks on every level, except on boss fights. Doom really was a superior game all around, i just don't think Quake 2 is as shit as anybody makes it out to be, soundtrack included.
 

Lyric Suite

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"The Oblivions" suffer from what I like to call "Jeremy Soule" syndrome, and so do now most games who are not composed by Jeremy Soule and have nothing to do with Bethesda.

It's not that it's bad music , it's just that it's loud and incredibly vulgar. Jeremy Soule cannot tell subtlety from his own butt. A short walk in a forest feels like there is an army accompanying as all instruments go blazing, each one trying to be more epic than the others. Modern games have a hard time staying simple. I do not twenty trumpets when I am clearing my inventory of crap and sorting out which skill I want to improve. Ultima had tunes you could just whistle and hum to yourself without feeling like a weirdo ; Soule's music and a lot of his goons would however make you sound like you want to invade Poland.

Well, i did like his work in Total Annihilation, and Icewind Dale i guess, to a lesser degree.

Total Annihilation is exactly what you described but it fit the game really well:

 
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Lyric Suite

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Just for reference, my favored track here is Kill Ratio, followed by Quad Machine.
 
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Easier how? Do you not agree that music has declined through out the years?

For one, i really liked Doom's soundtrack, the one called "Suspence" probably being among my favored:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cixW6rogZ48

I think the biggest problem with Quake 2 was the lack of variety. It was the same loud metal tracks on every level, except on boss fights. Doom really was a superior game all around, i just don't think Quake 2 is as shit as anybody makes it out to be, soundtrack included.

When everything new is shit there is something you must like. Bobby Prince just occasionaly mixed some metal and rock songs through some of the tracks and made entirely new one too. It worked very well for a game that's not story heavy and feels more like an arcade machine where you beat up each level. For example, I've never played first Half Life with music. The superior sound desing was enough for me and I didn't want anything else to distract me. After some time I listened it to soundtrack anyway but it will always be a detached album for me. Quake OST made by NIN is not trolololo 90's shit but really atmospheric piece. Sometimes the music doesn't need to be "friendly" to listener. And surely this soundtrack isn't the one. But Quake, just like Doom plays with looped tracks. I was sceptic at first but after many replays I can tell that something else woudln't fit the game so well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8_f8iF2T0g

"It is Raped" is one of my favourite one.

Maybe you should try music from Playstation version of Doom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV5UnANIj3c&index=5&list=PL8Ze5WK7zCVWudTwLZj_u06RqFcCSrSHC


As for Quake 2, I didn't like it either, the third part is more varied and stands even on it's own as a good piece of music. Unreal had more dynamic approach to combat/non-combat moments but it worked flawessly thanks to the talents of guys who made it. Unreal Tournament was a standard loop song per level and still kicked ass.

I tried to remember more recent good soundtracks in FPS games and only Fear (Nathan Rigg) comes to mind. It's very ambient, raw and sometimes rusty but I like the whole ambient genre so maybe that's it. And of course good old Blood music made by Daniel Bernstein and Guy Whitmore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfGV3RvGoVk&list=PL12B08F7A3B687924
 

Lyric Suite

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As for Quake 2, I didn't like it either, the third part is more varied and stands even on it's own as a good piece of music.

Third part meaning the last tracks on the compilation? I don't see how you can claim that only those can be considered as standing on its own as good music, unless you think only those made in the style you like can be considered good music, which is a bullshit argument. Style doesn't dictate quality of writing.

As for Unreal, to be frank i never found its soundtrack to be that amazing. Plentiful atmospheric but the writing wasn't particularly brilliant.

Ho, i also played Half Life without music, but maybe the soundtrack on that game was just shit. I don't even remember what it was.
 

Lyric Suite

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Listening to the Quake track you mentioned. Great for the type of feeling the game was trying to achieve, but as music, it really does nothing to me.
 
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I meant Quake 3, only MP game. Every track is recognizable, diffrent, varied but all of them make a good compilation. The soundtracks for addons of Q2 sound like a dinner that you made a couple of day earlier and put it in microwave to kill the hunger.
 

Lyric Suite

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BTW, on a related note i guess, my favored Red Alert track was Hell March:



Carpet bombing those filthy commies never felt as good as in this game. :M
 

Lyric Suite

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I meant Quake 3, only MP game. Every track is recognizable, diffrent, varied but all of them make a good compilation. The soundtracks for addons of Q2 sound like a dinner that you made a couple of day earlier and put it in microwave to kill the hunger.

Starcraft was great too as far as MP made soundtracks are concerned.
 
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Starcraft-Ghost.gif


I hear that.
 

Lyric Suite

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Man, now you just send me on a nostalgia trip:



Possible candidate for the best sound track in any RPG i've played, at least out of those i still remember. :M

Fuck, even the battle tracks are kick ass.
 

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Yeah, as much fun as Doom (even today with Brutal Doom) is, for MP Quake (and Quakeworld) is simply so much better. That's when I also switched from full keyboard to kb+mouse, first using numpad and then moving to WASD, because Team Fortress required more buttons and numpad was getting tricky.
 

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Fun fact: there was a speculative theory that Shakespeare was the pseudonym of Edward de Vere. One of the pieces of evidence proponents put forward was the Hamlet line "O curs'd spite, That ever I was born to set it right!", specifically the "E.Ver I was born" part.
So I don't go completely off-topic: in 1995, Manny Charlton (former guitarist of Scottish hard rock band Nazareth) sent John Romero a copy of his song Doom to distribute as shareware. The cassette was not labeled, so Romero made it available as Blood on the Walls.
 

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