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Heresy: There is no reason to expect a 2D-isometric engine again. But now we do have one...

ProphetSword

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I think gameplay is far more important than what kind of engine you use. If the gameplay is shit, it won't matter if it's 2D, 2.5, 3D or super-virtual-4D. So my preference is that the game not suck.
 

DraQ

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I think gameplay is far more important than what kind of engine you use. If the gameplay is shit, it won't matter if it's 2D, 2.5, 3D or super-virtual-4D. So my preference is that the game not suck.
I think some forms of gameplay are enabled or prohibited by particular types of engine, so the engine can dictate how the game plays and strengths/weaknesses it may or may not have.
 

Kem0sabe

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2d stands the test of time for anyone with a modicum of good taste, 3d on the other hand, depreciates very fast as it ages in terms of aesthetics.

There is just no context, 2d isometric rpgs will invariably look better as long as the quality of the art is good.
 

hoverdog

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3D is waaaay better than 2D.
2D used to look better but today with advancement of 3D, it's not much better looking.
example of a beatiful 3D engine, D:OS:
5r91zcf.jpg


In 2D games, like POE, you can't see what's behind this building and when your characters come there they're hidden behind the wall.. so retarded:
eternity17.jpg


So yeah, my conclusion would be, in codex's dictionary, if you're a retarded fucktard who prefer looks over gameplay then I guess isometric 2D is for you(as are all Biothesda games made post 2005.), but if you're a hardcore RPG player like I am, you'll appreciate the gameplay more than looks.
Cheers!
:gets_ready_for_shitstorm:
'sup drog
 

shihonage

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2D allows the artist control of every single pixel of every animation.

If you look at older sprite-based, software-rendered games, even "3D" ones, they always had a distinct look and many of them had memorable/interesting enemy attack animations and deaths. They just had a LOOK.

These days, most of the visuals have lost all distinction. There are a set number of methods for doing smoke and fire effects, the ice spell has the transparency radius because alpha blending is a standard feature, everything just looks the same.

The very nature of the work being transformed through limited hardware GPU abilities, the mapping, the filters, does this. With 2D you just have a canvas. Regardless of hardware, you can draw 3D-looking things, 2D-looking things, and they look exactly as you visualized them. You don't settle for the next best thing, worry about overall polygon counts in the scene - no, you just draw.

And what remains hilarious, is that with 2D games corpses were always cheap. Yet even in 2014, in 3D games corpses still aren't cheap, and it's still normal practice to make them disappear quickly.
 

ZagorTeNej

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Best example: BG 2, it looks great still imo.

For me, best example is PST, char avatars in that game and their animations are just beautiful. They look far more "real" to me than their 3D counterparts in any RPG/strategy to date.
 

Kem0sabe

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ToEE is one of the better examples of isometric 2d rpgs, the scale, art quality, character models and color palette is very tasteful. Shame the engine itself was falling to pieces.
 

Athelas

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For me, best example is PST, char avatars in that game and their animations are just beautiful. They look far more "real" to me than their 3D counterparts in any RPG/strategy to date.
That's because the companions in Torment don't have any generic animations: they're all unique (i.e. Annah holsters her punch daggers when combat ends). Of course the trade-off is the limited equippability (though this is a general issue with sprite-based characters).
 

Damned Registrations

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Clearly he means random objects in the scene. How can you have a game without the ability to move buckets? That isn't immersive at all!

:gumpyhead::hearnoevil:
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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I think the sweet spot is 3D models in pre-rendered 2D environments looks amazing, like in PoE. The bad thing is: you lose control over the camera.
That means combat can be annoying when you have buildings in the map, so dungeons can't have too many objects not in corners.
But at the same time, it can look soooo good, and 3D models don't even need to be too detailed. It should be good for indie developers without a high budget.
Well, rendering/drawing it from a different angle might solve some issues with camera control (what's behind that statue? Oh, a beggar), that that would work mostly with pre-rendered backgrounds (just change the camera position and angle, then adjust the code to take that into account), rather than drawn by hand (redrawing the entire map from a different angle).
 

J_C

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2D is also more cost and time effective:

Hello. I remember reading, probably way back in 2012 (I can't find the source) that the technique that was used in PoE for the graphics (2d images) would allow for a higher volume of content to be developed more quickly. In practice was that really the case? Do you feel that this particular technique that you and your team chose to employ proved more effective than whatever you could otherwise do in 3d? Have you learned ways to further optimize the process? Forgive my lack of technical knowledge

Josh Sawyer: Very much so. For most of the project we’ve had 4 environment artists. There is no way we could have made a game of PoE’s size and detail in 3D from scratch with those resources in the same amount of time. Even so, we learned a lot over the course of development (about Maya and Mental Ray) and our environment building and render times are now much, much faster. When we are able to start working on the expansion, I think the artists are going to produce some really amazing environments.
End of rine.
 

DraQ

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2d stands the test of time for anyone with a modicum of good taste, 3d on the other hand, depreciates very fast as it ages in terms of aesthetics.

There is just no context, 2d isometric rpgs will invariably look better as long as the quality of the art is good.
False, especially now.

Good graphics relies on using its assets well across the board instead of a bunch of cheap tricks, so it almost always ages gracefully, 2D or 3D.
Good graphics concentrates on what it shows, bad graphics concentrates on how it's done, hence bad graphics starts looking awful the moment the tricks it used go stale, good graphics remains impressive as long as the sights it tried to portray remain impressive - potentially forever.

Now, it's true that there was a long period when 2D graphics pretty much invariably implied much higher level of detail across the screen because 2D matured faster. OTOH 3D graphics has looked better in motion pretty much since its inception.
2D allows the artist control of every single pixel of every animation.
It also forces the artist to control every single pixel of animation.
Even if you "cheat" by using prerendered models and anims you still have narrow set of predefined frames, with no parametrization or ability to interpolate in a meaningful manner (at best you can blend them into each other but it's shit and it's oblivious to what the animation actually tries to portray).

These days, most of the visuals have lost all distinction. There are a set number of methods for doing smoke and fire effects, the ice spell has the transparency radius because alpha blending is a standard feature, everything just looks the same.
That's because artists are lazy and/or shit. See the original Witcher or Unreal for an example of 3D grafics with distinct style to it and its effects.
You don't settle for the next best thing, worry about overall polygon counts in the scene - no, you just draw.
Except you don't. The more you want to do with your scene the more distinct bitmaps you have to manipulate and blend.

It's always been about the tradeoff between prettiness and flexibility.

And what remains hilarious, is that with 2D games corpses were always cheap. Yet even in 2014, in 3D games corpses still aren't cheap, and it's still normal practice to make them disappear quickly.
Corpses are currently very expensive, because of stuff like physics.
OTOH in a 3D game you don't have to cope with neatly ordered corpses, each laying in exact same way regardless of the context.
You can even stand atop of actual pile of bodies with your massive 2h sword, looking manly.

You mean like interactive walls and ground?

Brick diplomacy increased.
Brick diplomacy is gud.
Never underestimate the power of a bunch of marksmen perched on top of brick wall like the one in that screenshot. Can you do that in PoE? No.
Throwing bricks can also be surprisingly effective, come to think of it. So can the age-old persuasion technique involving a brick in a sock.

2D is also more cost and time effective:
Hello. I remember reading, probably way back in 2012 (I can't find the source) that the technique that was used in PoE for the graphics (2d images) would allow for a higher volume of content to be developed more quickly. In practice was that really the case? Do you feel that this particular technique that you and your team chose to employ proved more effective than whatever you could otherwise do in 3d? Have you learned ways to further optimize the process? Forgive my lack of technical knowledge

Josh Sawyer: Very much so. For most of the project we’ve had 4 environment artists. There is no way we could have made a game of PoE’s size and detail in 3D from scratch with those resources in the same amount of time. Even so, we learned a lot over the course of development (about Maya and Mental Ray) and our environment building and render times are now much, much faster. When we are able to start working on the expansion, I think the artists are going to produce some really amazing environments.

End of rine.
Meanwhile at :gumpyhead::
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Joel.../Skyrims_Modular_Approach_to_Level_Design.php

Pretty much the entirety of Skyrim was made by a team of 10 - including both asset artists and mappers/designers.
Bitch as much as you want about dungeons' linearity (which is a valid complaint, but not very relevant here) but they did a pretty good job making the areas distinct, recognizable and, yes, pretty.
Do note that we are speaking of areas themselves here, not mechanics or encounter variety.
Is PoE larger than 0.3-0.5 of Skyrim? Because if it isn't then no, it's not more effective.
 

J_C

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Meanwhile at :gumpyhead::
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Joel.../Skyrims_Modular_Approach_to_Level_Design.php

Pretty much the entirety of Skyrim was made by a team of 10 - including both asset artists and mappers/designers.
You mean these "10"?

Concept Art
Adam Adamowicz
Ray Lederer
World Art
Cory Edwards
Tony Greco
Daniel T. Lee
Nate Purkeypile
Rashad Redic
Ryan Sears
Clara Struthers
Rafael Vargas
Robert Wisnewski
Lead Environment Art
Noah Berry
Environment Art
Andy Barron
Ryan Salvatore
Megan Sawyer
Additional Environment Art
Gabrielle Adams
Alex Schwartz-Rudd
Christopher Zdana
Special Effects
Grant Struthers
Mark Teare
Additional Effects
Liz Rapp
Lead Animator
Josh Jones
Animation
Jeremy Bryant
Jangjoon Cha
Lianne Cruz
Gary Noonan
Juan Sanchez
Ricardo Vicens
Alex Utting
Additional Animation
Ray Arnett
Lead Character Artist
Christiane H. K. Meister
Character Art
Ben Carnow
Charles Kim
Jonah Lobe
Dennis Mejillones
Dane Olds
Yan Qin
Additional Character Art
Liz Beetem
Hiu Lai Chong
Lucas Hardi
Massive Black
Interface Art
Natalia Smirnova
Additional Graphic Design
Istvan Pely
Lead Level Designer
Jeff Browne
Level Design
Daryl Brigner
Joel Burgess
Steve Cornett
Ryan Jenkins
Andrew Langlois
Justin Schram

And these are just the ones who work on level design and art. And with all these people, Skyrim looks pretty cheap on a lot of areas. Oh, and let's not do the math on salaries, comparing it to the salaries of the PoE developers.
 

DraQ

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DraQ

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How can you have such bad taste Draq?

1niio08.gif
I'm debating the claim that 2D is necessarily more efficient.

No matter what you think of Skyrim's locations, and no matter how much do you bash their linearity, it's evident that Beth's team created a pipeline allowing for mass creation of modular, yet diverse and organic looking locales by a very small team.
It's efficient and doesn't seem to have many obvious limitations when it comes to producing content that will be just as good as art team coming up with concepts and prefabs and dev team putting those prefabs together.
It's effectively a tile based system without most of tile based limitations and problems.
 

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