HOMM 2 vs HOMM 3

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Why do some prefer 2 over 3?

Outside graphics/design.

 

[Orzie]

Simplicity, you know. With the addition of some features and further overhaul of the magic system H3 became a little too complex for some players. Personally, I hate H3 combat system with Wait button all the way around. The magic system with Mass Haste/Mass Slow appearing too early in the game is also not the good way to make a balanced gameplay IMO. Not even mentioning the increased number of secondary skills and the implementation of hero specialties, some of which proved to be completely useless junk.

H2 games were in fact much faster and enjoyable in multiplayer thanks to the overall simplicity and limited variety of objects. H3 multiplayer usually takes days and sometimes even weeks.

The obvious fact that H3 is so popular and much more popular than H2 (still played nowadays unlike H2) cannot be denied and generally it's silly to disagree that Heroes 3 in fact were closer to a "perfect heroes game" the majority would like to play. However, we could have a little different Heroes 3 game which would not have the mentioned flaws and probably last much longer. That's why I put hope in Heroes 3 HotA, but some of their principles won't probably allow them to work out every questionable aspect of the game, like the magic system and WAIT abuse. Moreover, Heroes 3 "effective gameplay" is built on banks and conservatories, which is not in my taste in general.

 

[octavius]

To me the worst aspect of HoMM 2 is the very bad tactical AI.
And that is the very thing HoMM 3 really improved on.
OTOH HoMM 2 is a bit more strategic, since the factions are more diverse, like not all factions having fliers, Knight troops being good against the Undead faction due to the Crusaders' bonus so on larger maps you often have to consider where your armies will be most effective. I often keep Knight troops in reserve on large maps, until I can produce Crusaders.
On the third hand HoMM 3 introduced the Quest system which means much more complex and interesting single player maps could be made.

So all in all I love HoMM 2, and it's the game I've spent most time on the past year, but I still think HoMM 3 was an improvement.

 

[Archibald]

Simplicity, you know. With the addition of some features and further overhaul of the magic system H3 became a little too complex for some players. Personally, I hate H3 combat system with Wait button all the way around. The magic system with Mass Haste/Mass Slow appearing too early in the game is also not the good way to make a balanced gameplay IMO. Not even mentioning the increased number of secondary skills and the implementation of hero specialties, some of which proved to be completely useless junk.

Did anyone attempt to rework magic system in HoMM3?

 

[Endemic]

I prefer wait\defend to wasting turns. I do agree on the way mass spells were handled, 2 did that better. As for the resource banks, you could always make a custom map that doesn't include them...

 

[Orzie]

Did anyone attempt to rework magic system in HoMM3?

Pretty sure there are many WoG-based mods which introduce changes to it, but I generally don't play them because of the visuals. Also, a balanced game is a result of hundreds of games played by testers, while any of the WoG-based mods cannot provide it.

In the full version of Heroes 3: The Succession Wars there will be a different magic system (perhaps with some traits of H2 magic system), probably with Magic secondary skills being revised too. Still far from being balanced or providing a chance to have a balanced game in the nearest future, but at least giving a hope to find a workaround for this major flaw of the original H3 game. The current conservative Heroes 3: HotA politics don't allow such freedom in redesigning the game (since it's an expansion, not total conversion), but that doesn't yet mean that they are 100% unable to bring some changes on too.

 

[octavius]

Yeah, the spell system is pretty good in HoMM 2. There is a real incentive to build up those Magic Guild (or better: conquer enemy ones) to try to get high level spells like Mass Slow, Berserker, Dimension Door and Town Portal. But at the same time you have to consider if it's not better to use all the Crystal, Sulphur, Mercury and Gems on creature dwellings.
Building a lvl 1 guild and get Mass Slow just by improving the relevant magic skill is a no-brainer in comparison.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Why do some prefer 2 over 3?

Outside graphics/design.

One legit reason is gold. In III you have to play on impossible to retain any sort of economic challenge and even then you get rich just way too fast. II is much better in that regard, getting enough cash to afford tier 6 is a big deal and you really have to prioritize with more than one town making the game a bit more interesting. Other than that yeah - graphics and general atmosphere. It's just too charming to not get back to it from time to time.

The thing that harms II longevity the most is that the faction balance in it makes any "serious" multiplayer gaming pretty much impossible so outside of playing a game or two for shits and giggles you need to go to III or V.

 

[Endemic]

In practice though you take fewer troops, especially as heroes can only have 5 stacks anyway. Eg with the knight castle, you'd take rangers\pikemen\swordsmen\champions, then drop the rangers when you get crusaders. Also there's more to spend the gold on in 3 (including buying the town hall upgrades to get the gold income in the first place).

 

[JBro]

Is there a mod for 2 and 3 that lets you pan the camera with a mouse button like most other strategy games?

 

[kyrub]

Orzie The wait feature is an excellent tactical mechanism, compared to other TB games. I don't understand what sort of abuse do you see in it? Maybe with Archdevils + obstacle, which is a bit too obvious. Otherwise, it is perfect and brings in complex decisions especially in large battles.

Otherwise, I fully agree with your critique. The magic system of HoMM3 is incredibly weak in structure.

 

[Orzie]

Orzie The wait feature is an excellent tactical mechanism, compared to other TB games. I don't understand what sort of abuse do you see in it? Maybe with Archdevils + obstacle, which is a bit too obvious. Otherwise, it is perfect and brings in complex decisions especially in large battles.

Otherwise, I fully agree with your critique. The magic system of HoMM3 is incredibly weak in structure.

The wait feature in Heroes 3 results in using it in 90% of cases which sounds no less than abusement. It could be different and more dynamic if fliers and shooters had H2 mechanics (just as an option) so the players would at least need to think whether they should use Wait or not.

 

[Endemic]

The wait feature in Heroes 3 results in using it in 90% of cases which sounds no less than abusement. It could be different and more dynamic if fliers and shooters had H2 mechanics (just as an option) so the players would at least need to think whether they should use Wait or not.

Crossing the map in 1 turn or firing across with full damage (regardless of speed) made them rather overpowering though. I think the speed\range adjustments in H3 were an improvement.

 

[Orzie]

Crossing the map in 1 turn or firing across with full damage (regardless of speed) made them rather overpowering though. I think the speed\range adjustments in H3 were an improvement.

If you think about it in another way, what if the armies wouldn't start on the very edges of the battlefield? This would leave a lot more space for tactics and there wouldn't be any problems with speed/range changes. The Wait feature would still be pretty useful and not redundant.

There were many ways how to improve the game, and the one chosen by NWC had its flaws for sure. If you think that 1-stacks and chain-style army transfer is a conscious decision rather than an overlooked feature with unpredicted consequences which built the whole effective gameplay in the long run, then - oh well. Many useful things were made later in Heroes 4 regarding the issue (and again Heroes 4 had its own flaws like the elemental summoning), but the gaming industry was already crumbling so can't blame NWC much.

made them rather overpowering though

If you feel that a creature is overpowered, you can always manipulate the numbers when everything else is monolithic.

 

[Darth Roxor]

If you think about it in another way, what if the armies wouldn't start on the very edges of the battlefield?

indeed

wot if

 

[Endemic]

Indeed, and there are several heroes that start with Tactics.

There were many ways how to improve the game, and the one chosen by NWC had its flaws for sure. If you think that 1-stacks and chain-style army transfer is a conscious decision rather than an overlooked feature with unpredicted consequences which built the whole effective gameplay in the long run, then - oh well. Many useful things were made later in Heroes 4 regarding the issue (and again Heroes 4 had its own flaws like the elemental summoning), but the gaming industry was already crumbling so can't blame NWC much.

Chaining isn't too difficult to fix. Just attach strategic movement points to the units as another stat. Single stacks are an abstraction that I was willing to accept, given that this isn't a real time game (like Total War or the myriad of RTS that existed at the time).

If you feel that a creature is overpowered, you can always manipulate the numbers when everything else is monolithic.

Grand Elves are still plenty powerful in 3 without needing to do full damage across the field. I'm sure you're aware of the "split flyers to block shooters" tactic right? That's significantly easier to pull off in 2 because of unlimited movement.

 

[Orzie]

Indeed, and there are several heroes that start with Tactics.

That doesn't do any bad with the abovementioned situation.

Grand Elves are still plenty powerful in 3 without needing to do full damage across the field.

You just lower the stats you require. [2]

 

[Endemic]

Have you arrived at a definitive list of changes for H3:SW gameplay?

 

[Orzie]

Barely. The upcoming beta will still have old magic system and a lot of tweaks missing. It's mostly routine right now, with drawing/animating new creatures/map objects/townscreens and making all that work properly so the people will at least have something playable and acceptably looking after 4 years of waiting.

As for the future, the platform (ERA II) allows us to maintain a minimod system which may be convenient for optional developments to satisfy everyone's desires. Yet, not much motivation to make all those minimods myself.

The combat will be straight H3 except the new magic system which is still being discussed. Not because I love H3 combat, but because it's the most popular.

 

[Maggot]

I reinstalled HoMM2 to play the campaigns and now I get audio popping in cutscenes. Is it better to use the Windows version or to just emulate in DOSbox on Win7 64 bit?

 

[octavius]

So, is Berzerk at Expert level rather overpowered in HoMM3? Fire Magic is overall the weakest magic school IMO (and it seems to be the general concenus), but it is worth it when you can berserk three (or more if the move and group together) stacks.
Not only do all the stacks lose their attacks against your own troops (if not getting too close) but they decimate each other.
It seemed more balanced in HoMM 2, but then maybe Fire Magic needs an OP spell in HoMM 3?

 

[Darth Roxor]

"Rather overpowered" is quite the euphemism for max berserk.

 

[hello friend]

Fire magic is underrated. Berserk is huge, but in the right circumstances Frenzy is way strong on archers, and Armageddon is like the finest Camembert when combined with magic or fire immunes, having cheap adventuring armies with a single digit unit count is very easy on the economy while faceraping most adversaries.

Edit: Even some unwinnable battles become possible with a regular army and Armageddon by using Prot. from Fire, one of the very few uses it has. Guaranteed to cost some troops, but it can save the day nonetheless.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Fire is not the weakest school, it's second best, tied with water depending on who you play. It has a number of most ridiculous spells in the game (blind, berserk, arma) and then some more great ones (curse, bloodlust). But its best spells are higher level and rare.

 

[hello friend]

Oh yeah. Blind. Blind is great.

Edit: Water is, as you say, very dependent on who you play. Everyone should have either slow or haste - and you should be using either Dimension Door + Fly or Town Portal at an Expert level eventually, but bless - while nice - is only necessary on certain units, like harpies. Prayer is good, if you're using Loynis or really Castle at all, water is a no brainer. Teleport is situational, forgetfulness too. Dispel/cure is a must, but you can get by pretty well unskilled.

Apart from certain factions, water is my last magic school pick.