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Drog Black Tooth

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the same fucking 25 hours of Fallout.
lol there's probably only like 10 hours worth of content in the original fallout

you can finish the game in 2 hours if you know what to do

not much replay value either, you first play thru the game with small guns and speech, and then maybe energy weapons + high luck (so that you get the alien blaster right in one of the first locations) and... that's about it really. big guns and hand-to-hand are not viable

i mean you bring up a good point. if tallout 1 was released today, it would be on the same level as some shitty ass mobile game. not because of the mechanics, no, but because there's so little content, you can't even delude yourself into grinding thru some procedurally generated content like it's possible in the said mobile games. you just complete the same 10-15 quests and BAM good job hero

but fallout 2 while having bad lore and game setting is tons more fun in replays

still tho, 20 years of fallout 1 & 2 is probably enough, just go play something else, anything that is new
 

Sigourn

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Your comment might sound retarted, but there are huge truths there.

I probably used two of the most triggering examples to make my point, but yes, I do believe it's an absolute truth.

C&C is overrated in RPGs. It is not bad if it is here, but it hardly makes a good game. Great, you can replay the game 7 times and still find new things in the game. But I don't have time to replay a 50 hour long RPG 7 times, sorry. So that C&C doesn't give me any extra point.

C&C can make a good game slightly better, but if the game is not that fun to begin with, then all the C&C in the world can't help it.

On the other hand, a linear game can be so enjoyable that you want to play it from time to time, because you love the experience it gives you.

Exactly my feelings. If Final Fantasy VII and IX had more C&C, all the better. But C&C alone will not make me want to replay a game. At best it is an extra incentive if the game is good but not really that amaaazing (like New Vegas, which is a fairly "short" game when you think of it).

i mean you bring up a good point. if tallout 1 was released today, it would be on the same level as some shitty ass mobile game. not because of the mechanics, no, but because there's so little content, you can't even delude yourself into grinding thru some procedurally generated content like it's possible in the said mobile games. you just complete the same 10-15 quests and BAM good job hero

My feels exactly. I just wanted to finish Fallout once and for all, and it was like the 5th time I started playing the game, it was just a pain in the ass having to redo everything again. Some games are really enjoyable on replays, Fallout to me simply isn't. I'd argue I never had a "fun" Fallout experience, since the first time I stopped playing upon reaching Shady Sands, second after reaching The Hub, third probably after destroying the Super Mutant base, fourth after being killed by The Master, and fifth this final playthrough. It's hard to call any playthrough "fun" when you keep repeating the same shit over and over because you didn't finish it in one go the first time.

If I say anything else I'm sure to trigger quite a few Codex buttholes, so I will leave it at that.
 
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Lacrymas

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Wow, so much decline from one poster I can't even.


This I feel is the same error people repeat in basically every type of art that ages. Films age. Videogames age. Wizardry is fine and dandy, but the SNES version is an improvement in basically every way and form. It is precisely the SNES version that shows Wizardry was such a good game back in the day that it is still enjoyable today, over 30 years after its release, and playing a version that is almost 20 years old.

No, masterpieces don't age. Tell me which painting from these has "aged" -

corpushypercube1.jpg

the-reclining-woman.jpg

kabbalabuchkelipothbild.jpg

Transfiguration_Raphael.jpg

1200px-Kazimir_Malevich%2C_1915%2C_Black_Suprematic_Square%2C_oil_on_linen_canvas%2C_79.5_x_79.5_cm%2C_Tretyakov_Gallery%2C_Moscow.jpg

Everything from different ages of humanity. What "ages" is technology, but we must not conflate the two. Game design, artistic representation/mimesis and philosophical justification don't age. It's very wrong to take an evolutionary stance on art for a variety of reasons. They are simply different and must be understood differently.

With that out of the way: who is to say what the Citizen Kane of videogames is? People are more than free to think BioWare videogames or Bethesda videogames are. I haven't played ME, but I have played Skyrim, and it's by far the game I enjoyed the most playing. It is not a masterpiece, but at the end of the day, I'd rather stick with the dumbed down Skyrim than the "masterpiece" Fallout or Planescape: Torment. Skyrim is just the more enjoyable game, and I will kill myself before saying "yeah, I'd rather watch Battleship Potemkin over Transformers, such a masterpiece of cinema!". Because I actually have to watch Potemkin for an exam due in a couple of weeks, and it would certainly be much easier for me to just turn on Transformers and enjoy.
There is no "Citizen Kane" of videogames, just like there is no Citizen Kane of music or painting. I just don't know how to respond to this profane verbiage. It's your problem that you enjoy dumbed down shit like Transformers and Skyrim, not the other games' or films'. You have to climb up and reach masterpieces, not have them be dumbed down for you, that's easy and commonplace. This is literally how it works, masterpieces won't magically become easier to consume or understand just because you aren't willing to put in the effort. If that is too much work for you, then, again, it's your problem that you can't do this, art doesn't become irrelevant just because you (general you) prefer to eat shit because it's easier.

Videogames, just like films, are a form of entertainment. If you don't prioritize fun and enjoyment, you are a fucking idiot. Masterpieces are works that show us just how far we can go at any given time, but like in any medium that ages, when taken out of context, they just aren't anywhere near as powerful. I wouldn't call Fallout a masterpiece if it was made today.

There are different categories. Unterhaltungskunst, which is art for entertainment and mostly mindless; Volkskunst which is folk art and it simply exists; and Ernstkunst, serious art which is made for the intellectual and cultural growth of humanity. And, again, it is your duty to understand and immerse yourself in the context of works to appreciate and enjoy older masterpieces. That context isn't "old" or "irrelevant", or "wrong". The only thing you are right about is that some pieces won't be considered masterpieces if they came out today. Mozart's Requiem won't be a masterpiece today because it wouldn't take into account the historical relevancy of its musical language. That musical language has already been done and copying it won't have the same impact. Fallout is a great game even without its historical context.

I might come off as aggressive, but that sort of thinking triggers me because it tries, and fails, to justify the consumption of mass produced garbage thrown in the troughs. It tries to justify your own decline and degeneracy as a person, as well as allowing yourself to be exploited by AAA companies, just because it's "easy". It's lazy and gross, along with being easy.
 

J_C

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You're not idiots, you're just cucks, which is worse.
What do you mean? How one becomes a cuck in a topic about C&C? I think you are just throwing around this "insult" because you think it gives you some sweet kodex kredit.
 
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buru5

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Having fun is better than playing a game for completion's sake just because it's considered a masterpiece? An absolute truth? Yes. An amazing revelation? Fuck no. This is obvious shit you realize in your teens.

However, this may surprise you: some people have fun playing Planescape: Torment and other pretentious masterpieces! The horror! Enjoying video games is more of a subjective experience than an objective experience, unless the game is an unplayable mess. Implying that someone is bandwagoning for these masterpieces because they like them is a bad assumption, while that may be truth in some instances, it won't always be. Like I said, some people like things you don't like - I know it's hard to accept but you'll grow out of it in time.

And before I'm accused of being a Planescape shill, no. I hate that game.

What do you mean? How one becomes a cuck in a topic about C&C? I think you are just throwing around this "insult" because you think it gives you some sweet kodex kredit.

Lots of people don't actually know what cuck means from what I've gathered. They saw lots of people use it on /pol/ and want to be cool.
 
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Sigourn

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Wow, so much decline from one poster I can't even.

No, masterpieces don't age. Tell me which painting from these has "aged".

How sad you had to use paintings instead of films or videogames to prove your point. There's a reason I didn't say something like "The Mona Lisa has aged". It's very, very easy to know when a film is dated, or when a videogame is dated: you just look at them, and play them (in the case of vydia).

Game design, artistic representation/mimesis and philosophical justification don't age.

Are you implying videogames do not age?

Are you implying the first Ultima game didn't age? That later games didn't render it obsolete, for almost all purposes but "historical importance"?

And masterpieces, videogame and film masterpieces, do age my friend. If Skyrim, the 2010 game, had been released as is in 1983, it would be praised all the way to Jupiter by everyone in the media. For some reason, upon further reading your post, you admitted that historical context makes a huge difference.

There is no "Citizen Kane" of videogames, just like there is no Citizen Kane of music or painting. I just don't know how to respond to this profane verbiage. It's your problem that you enjoy dumbed down shit like Transformers and Skyrim, not the other games' or films'. You have to climb up and reach masterpieces, not have them be dumbed down for you, that's easy and commonplace. This is literally how it works, masterpieces won't magically become easier to consume or understand just because you aren't willing to put in the effort. If that is too much work for you, then, again, it's your problem that you can't do this, art doesn't become irrelevant just because you (general you) prefer to eat shit because it's easier.

And so Lacrymas forgot what subjectivity is, and instead of accepting the objective truth (that people have different opinions) he decided to call his own the "best".

Not to mention

It tries to justify your own decline and degeneracy as a person, as well as allowing yourself to be exploited by AAA companies, just because it's "easy". It's lazy and gross, along with being easy.

I don't need to justify anything. I play games to have fun. The games that are not fun are garbage, plain and simple. Gold Box games, to me, are garbage. I'd rather play and enjoy Pokémon.

However, this may surprise you: some people have fun playing Planescape: Torment and other pretentious masterpieces! The horror!

Ironic you mention this, since I enjoyed PS:T. That said: I never said these games cannot be enjoyed. Only that it's perfectly fine for people not to enjoy them and enjoy other games instead. That doesn't make them morons.
 
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Sigourn

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Most importantly, and I suspect Lacrymas is too retarded to understand this: fun has absolutely nothing to do with how easy, simple, hard or complex a game is. If he thinks he is somehow superior or more intelligent to the people who play stuff like Mass Effect: Andromeda or Fallout 4, he should think again: most of those people do not play old RPGs not because they are difficult, but because they do not find them fun.

Otherwise, we are meant to believe the average Codexer is a moron because he doesn't play what is supposedly a "very easy" RPG like Fallout 4. Could it be, however, that the average Codexer doesn't play Fallout 4 because the game simply isn't fun? I for one find great joy in jacking off, yet I wouldn't call it a particularly difficult task to accomplish.
 
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buru5

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Ironic you mention this, since I enjoyed PS:T. That said: I never said these games cannot be enjoyed. Only that it's perfectly fine for people not to enjoy them and enjoy other games instead. That doesn't make them morons.

Nothing ironic about it. You implied that Skyrim was objectively more fun than Planescape: Torment. Doesn't have much to do with you liking it or not, but you obviously liked Skyrim more than Planescape and you seem to be making an objective remark that Skyrim is "just more fun".

I'd rather stick with the dumbed down Skyrim than the "masterpiece" Fallout or Planescape: Torment. Skyrim is just the more enjoyable game,

It's completely possible for someone to have more fun with P:T than Skyrim. Just because you have more fun with Skyrim doesn't mean shit to anyone. It just shows your personal preference when it comes to video games. Your entire post boiled down to "wahh I had more fun with Skyrim than Planescape therefore Skyrim is a better game and Plaenscape is overrated and shouldn't be considered a masterpiece". That's cool an all, but that's just liek your opinion man.
 

Lacrymas

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Sigourn, again, it's technology that ages, not an idea or concept. I don't understand what you mean by "subjectivity", are you somehow implying that only your "opinion" matters in art and the widely regarded, and justifiably so, masterpieces aren't such, or, God forbid, not worth your time because you don't like them? That's insane even if you have never seen art before. Fun is not a quality of art, you impose that on it. It has no obligation to be fun, let alone "more fun" than anything else.
 
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Sigourn

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Nothing ironic about it. You implied that Skyrim was objectively more fun than Planescape: Torment. Doesn't have much to do with you liking it or not, but you obviously liked Skyrim more than Planescape and you seem to be making an objective remark that Skyrim is "just more fun"..

I didn't. All I said was that I would rather stick with Skyrim over than PS:T, not that Skyrim is objectively the better (more fun) game. In other words: that other people say the game is dumbed down doesn't stop it from being more fun (for me).

In fact, the whole quote reads:

It is not a masterpiece, but at the end of the day, I'd rather stick with the dumbed down Skyrim than the "masterpiece" Fallout or Planescape: Torment. Skyrim is just the more enjoyable game

So I acknowledge Skyrim is not a masterpiece, but Fallout and PS:T (in particular) are. But being masterpieces of videogaming doesn't make them more fun than other games, and this one is an objective truth, regardless of whether you have fun with them or not.
 

Sigourn

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Sigourn, again, it's technology that ages, not an idea or concept.

A videogame is a piece of technology. I judge games as they are, and not the idea behind the videogame, because I don't play an idea, I play a manifestation of that idea in videogame form.

I don't understand what you mean by "subjectivity", are you somehow implying that only your "opinion" matters in art and the widely regarded, and justifiably so, masterpieces aren't such because you don't like them?

On the other hand: that all opinions are valid, and as such, no opinion is better than another. What some people consider to be a "masterpiece" is of no consequence to me. When I see this:

1f9b01e6b6ded4b5fdaaac9d0ab0cc64.jpg


it doesn't matter what others think. To me it's nice looking garbage. In other words: don't force on me that a certain film is a masterpiece, just like I won't force on something "this film is garbage".

Otherwise, like I explained earlier, nothing stops me from saying "you don't like Skyrim because you are too stupid to get it and appreciate it", which is honestly just as valid as saying "you don't like these old cRPGs because you are too stupid".

Fun is not a quality of art, you impose that on it. It has no obligation to be fun.

I will admit not all films were created with the sole purpose of entertaining their audience, just like not all videogames were made for the purpose of providing fun for the people who play them. Then again, in the case of videogames, no cRPG I have played or heard of was created with the intention of being "art".
 

Lacrymas

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On the other hand: that all opinions are valid, and as such, no opinion is better than another. What some people consider to be a "masterpiece" is of no consequence to me.

Then how do you explain why some composers/painters/authors have persisted throughout history and most haven't? if everyone a special little snowflake whose opinion on art can do no wrong? What Mondrian does with his paintings is absolutely justifiable and it's your duty to understand and enjoy them.
 
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Sigourn

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Then how do you explain why some composers/painters/authors have persisted throughout history and most haven't?

A group of people think they are masterpieces. To me, they are of no consequence. I don't care about paintings, I don't care about plastic art and a bunch of other things.

They reason they persist is because this isn't some "people who care vs people who don't care" war, where we have ot kill each other. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the Mona Lisa wouldn't have persisted: just kill the people who like it and call it a day.
 
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buru5

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What Mondrian does with his paintings is absolutely justifiable and it's your duty to understand and enjoy them.

Lol, are you being sarcastic? This is the most pretentious thing I've read on the codex. Our duty to understand some shit paintings? Give me a break.

I didn't. All I said was that I would rather stick with Skyrim over than PS:T, not that Skyrim is objectively the better (more fun) game. In other words: that other people say the game is dumbed down doesn't stop it from being more fun (for me).

May want to choose your words more wisely then.

On a somewhat separate note, you acknowledge Planescape as a masterpiece, but not Skyrim? Skyrim is widely considered a masterpiece by several people and gaming outlets, not that that means anything. I believe the point was brought up earlier that there is no real consensus on what a masterpiece is in the gaming community, if you ask the codex you'll hear P:T, Goldbox games, Morrowind, etc, but if you ask a more casualized fanbase you'll hear things like Skyrim and Fallout 3, which should tell you that it's mostly subjective.

Also, comparing video games to a painting is just stupid (not that you're specifically doing that, just in general), they both have completely different qualifiers for what is considered "good" in the medium. While a video game may be considered a technical masterpiece, it may not be very fun to the masses, and in almost all cases fun trumps technical prowess when reviewing video games. "Fun" should the the top qualifier for how good a game is imo, considering the goal of a game is to be fun, that's what leads to enjoyment in this medium. I think most people would agree with this. However, like I said earlier, there is a large degree of subjectivity to said "fun", which is one of the reasons why there's no real consensus on what is a masterpiece in gaming. For example, some may consider Ocarina of Time a masterpiece (and yeah, it's a fun game), but personally I'd say Twilight Princess is a better game in all respects.
 

Lacrymas

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Sigourn, masterpieces are justifiably so, they aren't random opinions of random people, but I won't go any further than that because there is no point. Also, if you don't care about other people's opinions, why are you on a forum?

buru5, no, I'm absolutely serious. It's not only about paintings, it's about everything else that is good. Fallout is a good example. And yes, that includes Mondrian. It's your duty to become a more cultured and multi-faceted person. If you don't care about that, then that's your problem. Some people don't uphold their duties.
 
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Sigourn

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Also, if you don't care about other people's opinions, why are you on a forum?

I'm here to have fun, not to tell other people what games they should or they should not like.

Sigourn, masterpieces are justifiably so, they aren't random opinions of random people

That's the definition of what masterpieces are: random opinions of random people. Who says that a certain person's opinion is better than my own? You are trying to make me believe I should accept Citizen Kane being a masterpiece just because other people say it is. I may or may not agree with that, but that doesn't make it a true statement, "Citizen Kane is a masterpiece and this is an objective truth".
 

Sigourn

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On a somewhat separate note, you acknowledge Planescape as a masterpiece, but not Skyrim? Skyrim is widely considered a masterpiece by several people and gaming outlets, not that that means anything. I believe the point was brought up earlier that there is no real consensus on what a masterpiece is in the gaming community, if you ask the codex you'll hear P:T, Goldbox games, Morrowind, etc, but if you ask a more casualized fanbase you'll hear things like Skyrim and Fallout 3, which should tell you that it's mostly subjective.

It is definitely a subjective thing. I personally don't think Skyrim is a masterpiece, it's such a flawed game in many, many games that I won't consider it one. Vagrant Story, to me, is a masterpiece, but if someone thinks differently, I won't hold it against them.

Also, comparing video games to a painting is just stupid (not that you're specifically doing that, just in general), they both have completely different qualifiers for what is considered "good" in the medium. While a video game may be considered a technical masterpiece, it may not be very fun to the masses, and in almost all cases fun trumps technical prowess when reviewing video games. "Fun" should the the top qualifier for how good a game is imo, considering the goal of a game is to be fun, that's what leads to enjoyment in this medium. I think most people would agree with this. However, like I said earlier, there is a large degree of subjectivity to said "fun", which is one of the reasons why there's no real consensus on what is a masterpiece in gaming. For example, some may consider Ocarina of Time a masterpiece (and yeah, it's a fun game), but personally I'd say Twilight Princess is a better game in all respects.

Agree with everything you have said here, buru5. :love:
 
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buru5

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buru5, no, I'm absolutely serious. It's not only about paintings, it's about everything else that is good. Fallout is a good example. It's your duty to become a more cultured and multi-faceted person. If you don't care about that, then that's your problem. Some people don't uphold their duties.

You think playing vidja makes one cultured?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

Lacrymas

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You think playing vidja makes one cultured?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Why not? They are a part of reality/culture and do have value. Only the good ones that is. I'm not saying "only vidya gaems make you cultured", I'm saying that they they do exist and shouldn't be dismissed lightly, they are an addition to everything else.
 
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buru5

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I don't entirely disagree. I can see why you'd think that and you may even be right, but I view gaming as a fun hobby that ultimately is simply a time-waster because I don't have much else to do when I'm not working. It's like taking drugs or going to a pub, but a bit less destructive. If playing games makes me cultured then playing sports and knowing the intricacies of each sport makes me cultured too. Where do we draw the line?

The main issue I have is this:

Only the good ones that is.

Makes me think you're trolling, tbh. If vidja makes me cultured but I played Skyrim more than Fallout by your logic I'd be less cultured than you and that's just stupid. "Cultured" refers not only to taste, but also manners and education. Playing games is usually not very educational, and if the Codex is anything to go by it definitely does not improve manners.
 

Sigourn

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That's the definition of what masterpieces are: random opinions of random people.

:deathclaw:

I'm glad you are a sheep that needs others to tell him what constitutes a "masterpiece" and what "doesn't". But I'm not.

I've only played two masterpieces in my life (ironically, both games fairly similar to movies and literature, respectively: Vagrant Story and Planescape: Torment). I will never consider Fallout a masterpiece, just like I will never consider the Gioconda a masterpiece because I just don't get that vibe from them.
 

Tigranes

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"I'm a free thinker cos I play something and if it feels fun it's fun!"

It's ironic how the most extreme believers in absolute subjectivity end up reproducing the myth of an independent and sovereign self who perceives things and judges them in a transcendent vacuum. All it means is that you are a horse chasing the dangling carrot, a slave to your most immediate responses - and, more importantly, an unwitting slave to those who know how to manipulate those responses.

The last irony is that since you've argued that any kind of effort to classify and evaluate culture is 'random shit' and you just like what you like, all of your opinions about how video games 'age' (whatever that means) is completely irrelevant.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Once again someone tries their heart out to defend a simple game with simple mechanics for simple mindless gameplay with the use of the word 'fun' but without any reference as to what aspects are specifically 'fun' (and inb4 "I like the open world and the sex mods etc etc").

What exactly are Skyrim's mechanics? I often watch video game series on youtube as a sleep aid, and often some cinematic adventure suits this purpose well, such as Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners or Bloodborne, and in doing this I can appreciate the finer examples of console experiences, even if I'll never play them myself (hence I wont ever be spoilering myself by watching these games), but when I tried to use Skyrim as a sleep aid I got to episode 9 out of 150+ and I could never get further. And by episode 9 absolutely nothing of interest had happened, nothing that I could cling to as a hook of interest, it all looked incredibly, incredibly dull. Its comparable to No Man's Sky but with a bit more content, and, yes, there are people who find No Man's Sky... fun, whatever incredibly low bar it is that they use to define fun... you tell me, what is this 'fun'? Some people find watching paint dry fun and you need to express that?
 

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