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"How Game Designers Protect Players From Themselves"

TheHeroOfTime

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I think this video is gud, exemplifies why mechanics such the weapon system of Zelda: Breath of the wild are so critisiced and claimed as faults when in fact they're properly designed to make the games more interesting and fun. People just tend to hate getting out of their confort zone. They want to play games as the want, no matter if it the worst way to do it. They want to go to Hyrule castle, pick a royal sword and maintain that sword through all the game by a repair system to play the game just as they want. They don't understand that the breakable weapons system exists to encourgage the use of all the gameplay possibilities of the game to defeat enemies, like using bombs to throw bokoblins to the water and kill them easily, and to add a real value to the weapons of the game. You'll not waste that fire sword that you obtained in a shrine just to kill a bunch a stalfos. You will save it, and use it to fight strong enemies like the white ones or the Lynels. Same goes to the Master sword, a weapon that truly feels unique in terms of gameplay and it's not just a plot device like in other games of the franchise. It's an unbreakable weapon in a game where all weapons breaks. A weapon that a player will want ASAP.

It reminds me when the people critisiced Dark souls for having "artificial difficulty" when the cannot play the game running throught it easily without falling in traps and getting killed by enemies that were designed to encourage a slow and wise style of gameplay. Sometimes I imagine people playing games like Fallout and claiming game's bad design just because they can't kill a deathclaw with a 10mm pistol. No, you fuckin moron. You must go through the wasteland an find powerfull weapons if you want to survive easily against supermutants and deathclaws. Or join the BoS fucking faggot. And get banned just for entering the private room of one high ranked member of the faction just like I did in my first playthrough. Feel the glorious player's agency going through all your body.
 
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Messages
14,152
nuXCom is a bad example. Its problem wasn't that overwatch was OP, it's that the turn system and pod system fundamentally broke gameplay. If you activated a pod on your last move, everyone in the squad would die during the enemy turn. Period. Old X-Com had no such problems. Though you could also say that X-Com instead rewarded players for rushing, since the faster you moved and the faster you took down aliens, the more likely you were to cause the morale of your enemies to plummet to the point where they couldn't fight back at all.

Also clearly the video maker never played DMC3, because Spiral Canceling is hot shit.
 

TheHeroOfTime

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5292281d62a63f36f4a78224db14112bo.png


:deadtroll:

I knew it. I fucking knew it. Fucking youtube comments man.
 
Last edited:

Plisken

Learned
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
255


I think this video is gud, exemplifies why mechanics such the weapon system of Zelda: Breath of the wild are so critisiced and claimed as faults when in fact they're properly designed to make the games more interesting and fun. People just tend to hate getting out of their confort zone. They want to play games as the want, no matter if it the worst way to do it. They want to go to Hyrule castle, pick a royal sword and maintain that sword through all the game by a repair system to play the game just as they want. They don't understand that the breakable weapons system exists to encourgage the use of all the gameplay possibilities of the game to defeat enemies, like using bombs to throw bokoblins to the water and kill them easily, and to add a real value to the weapons of the game. You'll not waste that fire sword that you obtained in a shrine just to kill a bunch a stalfos. You will save it, and use it to fight strong enemies like the white ones or the Lynels. Same goes to the Master sword, a weapon that truly feels unique in terms of gameplay and it's not just a plot device like in other games of the franchise. It's an unbreakable weapon in a game where all weapons breaks. A weapon that a player will want ASAP.

It reminds me when the people critisiced Dark souls for having "artificial difficulty" when the cannot play the game running throught it easily without falling in traps and getting killed by enemies that were designed to encourage a slow and wise style of gameplay. Sometimes I imagine people playing games like Fallout and claiming game's bad design just because they can't kill a deathclaw with a 10mm pistol. No, you fuckin moron. You must go through the wasteland an find powerfull weapons if you want to survive easily against supermutants and deathclaws. Or join the BoS fucking faggot. And get banned just for entering the private room of one high ranked member of the faction just like I did in my first playthrough. Feel the glorious player's agency going through all your body.


The "you can't do this yet because you're weak/poorly equipped/fucking stupid" gambit is something particularly egregious to people whove only ever played post 2005 titles. Also the idea that you might LOSE something of value and CONTINUE regardless is just the antithesis of how they conceive gameplay. People think ironman modes are for autistics whove mined every aspect of the game instead of the actual preferable way to have a fully engaging and meaningful gameplay. Hell it doesnt even have to be ironman, just stop save scumming and already decisions made in the game world feel far more impactful.
 

Startropy

Startropy Games
Developer
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
33


I think this video is gud, exemplifies why mechanics such the weapon system of Zelda: Breath of the wild are so critisiced and claimed as faults when in fact they're properly designed to make the games more interesting and fun. People just tend to hate getting out of their confort zone. They want to play games as the want, no matter if it the worst way to do it. They want to go to Hyrule castle, pick a royal sword and maintain that sword through all the game by a repair system to play the game just as they want. They don't understand that the breakable weapons system exists to encourgage the use of all the gameplay possibilities of the game to defeat enemies, like using bombs to throw bokoblins to the water and kill them easily, and to add a real value to the weapons of the game. You'll not waste that fire sword that you obtained in a shrine just to kill a bunch a stalfos. You will save it, and use it to fight strong enemies like the white ones or the Lynels. Same goes to the Master sword, a weapon that truly feels unique in terms of gameplay and it's not just a plot device like in other games of the franchise. It's an unbreakable weapon in a game where all weapons breaks. A weapon that a player will want ASAP.

It reminds me when the people critisiced Dark souls for having "artificial difficulty" when the cannot play the game running throught it easily without falling in traps and getting killed by enemies that were designed to encourage a slow and wise style of gameplay. Sometimes I imagine people playing games like Fallout and claiming game's bad design just because they can't kill a deathclaw with a 10mm pistol. No, you fuckin moron. You must go through the wasteland an find powerfull weapons if you want to survive easily against supermutants and deathclaws. Or join the BoS fucking faggot. And get banned just for entering the private room of one high ranked member of the faction just like I did in my first playthrough. Feel the glorious player's agency going through all your body.

The new X-Coms get brought up a lot in the vid. I would counter that the problem with trying to force an aggressive, high-risk style in these games isn't because most players are "risk averse," but because you are trying to do it in a game that has a long-term campaign where taking stupid risks means potentially losing your entire squad of highly trained soldiers because you were too impatient and tripped that pod. Everything about X-COM screams at the player that the slow, methodical approach IS the correct way to approach the game, and that rushing in and taking unnecessary risks is the rookie mistake to do.
 

HansDampf

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Joined
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Messages
1,471
Everything about X-COM screams at the player that the slow, methodical approach IS the correct way to approach the game, and that rushing in and taking unnecessary risks is the rookie mistake to do.
That's exactly how I played the old X-COM and I still lost soldiers in almost every mission. I don't understand why they are so afraid of slow, methodical play styles. Jagged Alliance 2 didn't have timers either, and it's the best TB tactics game.
Is that a "modern audience" thing?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The new X-Coms get brought up a lot in the vid. I would counter that the problem with trying to force an aggressive, high-risk style in these games isn't because most players are "risk averse," but because you are trying to do it in a game that has a long-term campaign where taking stupid risks means potentially losing your entire squad of highly trained soldiers because you were too impatient and tripped that pod. Everything about X-COM screams at the player that the slow, methodical approach IS the correct way to approach the game, and that rushing in and taking unnecessary risks is the rookie mistake to do.

What's your solution/alternative?
 

Spectacle

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Messages
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The new X-Coms get brought up a lot in the vid. I would counter that the problem with trying to force an aggressive, high-risk style in these games isn't because most players are "risk averse," but because you are trying to do it in a game that has a long-term campaign where taking stupid risks means potentially losing your entire squad of highly trained soldiers because you were too impatient and tripped that pod. Everything about X-COM screams at the player that the slow, methodical approach IS the correct way to approach the game, and that rushing in and taking unnecessary risks is the rookie mistake to do.

What's your solution/alternative?
If the aliens were actually doing something instead of lounging around waiting for their pod to get activated then a more aggressive playstyle might be valuable to take them out before they can complete whatever nasty plan they are up to.
 

Zenith

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Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
296
Or, like in Apoc, if the aliens actually had to spread from their own starting point, and getting them early meant you could avoid getting flanked / wasting time looking for the last one (not to mention them crossing the map border and infiltrating adjacent cells).
 

Startropy

Startropy Games
Developer
Joined
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Messages
33
What's your solution/alternative?

In regards to X-COM there is nothing needed to be fixed. It doesn't really make sense for a game like X-COM to constantly pressure the player to take risks. The occasional mission that breaks the game's usual pacing and forces the player to over-extend themselves is fine, and they already exist in terror missions.

That's exactly how I played the old X-COM and I still lost soldiers in almost every mission. I don't understand why they are so afraid of slow, methodical play styles. Jagged Alliance 2 didn't have timers either, and it's the best TB tactics game.
Is that a "modern audience" thing?
I don't think you'll really know unless you asked them yourself. If I was to wildly speculate it could be because that they saw too many players resorting to strategies they felt were "safe" but weren't really and sub-optimal to boot, like say taking 50% pot-shots at the aliens while behind cover and the aliens doing the same, and then said players get frustrated. Or maybe defensive play doesn't look sexy when shown on a stream. But again, who knows.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
What's your solution/alternative?

In regards to X-COM there is nothing needed to be fixed. It doesn't really make sense for a game like X-COM to constantly pressure the player to advance forward. The occasional mission that breaks the game's usual pacing and forces the player to over-extend themselves is fine, and they already exist in terror missions.

That's exactly how I played the old X-COM and I still lost soldiers in almost every mission. I don't understand why they are so afraid of slow, methodical play styles. Jagged Alliance 2 didn't have timers either, and it's the best TB tactics game.
Is that a "modern audience" thing?
I don't think we'll really know unless we asked them ourselves. If I was to wildly speculate it could be because that they saw too many players resorting to "safe" but sub-optimal strategies, like say taking 50% pot-shots at the aliens while behind cover and the aliens doing the same, and then said players get frustrated. Or maybe defensive play doesn't look sexy when shown on a stream. But again, who knows.

Why not ask in this thread? As you can see, there are people right here on the Codex who appear to agree that gameplay is more enjoyable when you have to be aggressive - they just disagree with how XCOM is fixing it.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
What's your solution/alternative?

Make it more like old X-Com. I could outline the specifics but it should be obvious to anyone who has played old X-Com, and anyone who hasn't should be doing so immediately rather than reading my post.

Instructions for playing X-COM:

  1. Purchase X-COM from GOG, Steam, etc.
  2. Get OpenXCOM here: https://openxcom.org/
  3. RTFM: http://www.replacementdocs.com/download.php?view.1010
  4. If you don't like it, go here: https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/index.php
 

pippin

Guest
reminder that openapoc is completed as we speak (iirc)
also hat happened to opentftd
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
IIRC, X-COM was actually easier than intended due to some bug or hidden mode setting. I think OpenXCOM might have fixed that.

TFTD features the originally intended difficulty.
 

Durandal

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
5292281d62a63f36f4a78224db14112bo.png


:deadtroll:

I knew it. I fucking knew it. Fucking youtube comments man.

Agreed, if you hate timed events, you are a massive faggot.

It's always the "I DON'T WANT TO FEEL PRESSURE WHILE PLAYING WAAAAAAAA" excuse as well.
The funny part is that most people bitching about time limits in games like Dead Rising 1 or Fallout 1 never actually tried to explore the world at their own pace until time was about to run out, and see for themselves how much free time they actually have. Just the mere prospect of being able to get a bad ending for being 2slow is a heart-gripping sensation for people who probably procrastinated many school projects up to one week before the deadline and don't seem to be able to realize that time management is also applicable to video games. Anyone who has played Pathologic should know how retarded it is to bitch about overarching time limits as inherently flawed.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
IIRC, X-COM was actually easier than intended due to some bug or hidden mode setting. I think OpenXCOM might have fixed that.

TFTD features the originally intended difficulty.

Not quite. AFAIK, the legend goes something like this:

The original X-COM had a bug where when you loaded a save, the difficulty would revert to the easiest level.

Because of this, many players complained that the game was too easy.

Instead of noticing that this was because of a bug that prevented people from playing on their selected difficulty level, the developers reacted by amping up the sequel's difficulty level across the board, making it as difficult as the original game's highest difficulty level by default.
 

HansDampf

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Messages
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Even Majora's Mask gives you plenty of time. There is an owl statue in front of every dungeon. That means, after doing the prep work to gain access to a dungeon, you can always go back to day 1 and teleport directly to the dungeon entrance. With the inverted Song of Time a 3-day cycle will last over 2.5 hours real time. If you can't beat a Zelda dungeon in 2.5 hours, you might be retarded.
 

Jaedar

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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
reminder that openapoc is completed as we speak (iirc)
also hat happened to opentftd
Opentftd is in development (iirc playable in various buggy states from the nightly builds.

OpenApoc has a while to go as well
The true value of openApoc is the ability to finish the various parts of the game the developers didn't though.
 

Mark Richard

Arcane
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Mar 14, 2016
Messages
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You'll not waste that fire sword that you obtained in a shrine just to kill a bunch a stalfos. You will save it, and use it to fight strong enemies like the white ones or the Lynels.
The manner in which Breath of the Wild tried to prevent one bad player compulsion ended up creating another. Weapons were so fragile that many players were too afraid to actually use them, hoarding them throughout the entirety of the game.
 

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