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How have your tastes changed?

ilitarist

Learned
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true action-RPG = action rpg.
fake action-RPG = action game with fantasy template / rpg-lite advancement template.

Don't really agree.

My definition for "real" action-RPG would be "it's possible to create different characters who rely on different gameplay tactics/mechanics". Or practical example: if you and I give each other save files will we be able to continue playing in the same way?

Dark Souls is "fake" because pretty much any character can use all types of weapons and magic, the difference in stats is how big is your two-handed weapon, how much damage you deal, how much damage you can survive.

Witcher is "fake" because every playable character can use all tactics and I can load your save file and continue playing my way whatever your build was.

Morrowind and even Skyrim are half way there. They make you rely on different mechanics. Character may be useless in melee and great in magic, or use specific enchanted equipment to get by etc. However, I think every character build in those games is drawn to jack of all trades approach as it's natural to combine melee, ranged and magic - you still have mana and enchanted items, it's dumb not to use it. So you can have a unique character, but you probably won't.

Baldur's Gate, Pillars of Eternity, Fallout 1-2 are all real RPGs gameplay-wise.

However it doesn't say much about additional stuff like dialogues, choices and consequences, open-worldness. Dues Ex Human Revolution has dialogues (some are great and you have "boss battle" dialogues), sidequests and different approaches yet it's not usually considered an RPG. Even more puzzling is Dishonored: it has different builds, difference of equipment, sidequests, even moral choices - yet it's not considered an RPG - maybe cause in the end you are still able to switch saves with me and continue playing your way, it will only be slightly more difficult.
 
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aweigh

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Stranger of sword city (just gameplay footage of one of the dungeons):


wizardry gaiden 4: throb of the demon's heart (translated into english recently by codexers MrRichard999 and Helly, and a group of lots of other peeps. this one was loooong in the making):


wizardry: chronicle (translated by... you know the drill! superstar codexers richard and helly):
 
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aweigh

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the videos i posted are really all you need to know whether you'll enjoy them or not. btw, ilitarist , you began your post regarding my rpg definitions with "i don't really agree", but unless I'm a retard and can't read... you basically repeated all of my main points.

the stuff about save files isn't a good way to gauge the so-called RPG-ness of an RPG, though, for example your analogy can also easily apply to games like Fallout, which are inarguably "true" RPGs.

anyway, back to how our RPG tastes changed!

i would also like to credit Crooked Bee, and her AMAZINGLY well-written and exhaustively researched Let's Play of Wizardry 4 for making me interested in Wizardry.

thanks bee!

And, btw, if anyone hasn't read her amazing Wiz 4 LP, here is the link: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/lets-play-wizardry-4.70586/
 

ilitarist

Learned
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the videos i posted are really all you need to know whether you'll enjoy them or not. btw, ilitarist , you began your post regarding my rpg definitions with "i don't really agree", but unless I'm a retard and can't read... you basically repeated all of my main points.

Your main point was about twitch skill, I had nothing about it. Turn-based combat RPG may be fake if your choices do not matter. Say, Shining Force (and, I suspect, other JRPGs) are like that: you have more or less the same characters and their development is not important. Alternatively twitch skills are important in Alpha Protocol or even Morrowind (you have to dodge attacks and be quick using items) but those are still RPGs.

Aren't character creation and choosing between classes(even if the class you choose is just a template) RPG elements?

Gothic/Risen and most JRPGs do not have character creation.
 
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aweigh

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char gen isn't a requirement for an rpg to be an rpg, however char gen IS definitive part of the RPG template.

does that make sense?
 
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aweigh

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ERYFKRAD

had forgotten. thanks for reminding me. am currently installling nwn1 again right now, then gonna install swordflight.

after some hours playing it, i'll install nwn2 and try out maimed god / conan.

had to delete lots of shit to accomodate the bloated sizes of nwn games, plus need to download all the ui mods and shit, sigh.

but it'll be worth it.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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We can never agree on what an RPG is because our opinions are tainted by the current definition of "RPG".

For example, if I said Final Fantasy wasn't a roleplaying game, people would go bonkers here. But to me, it isn't a roleplaying game. It is a game with turn based combat, stats, and different "classes" (characters), but I'm just someone who is pupeteering a bunch of guys. It may as well be a movie for all I care and it will just be the same. My Final Fantasy experience is the same as any other person's Final Fantasy experience.

It is different with a game like Fallout or Deus Ex, even Fallout 3. At some point in the movie, people will say "But I took a stealth approach in that mission!", or "But I let the Ghouls in Necropolis die!", or "Lololol I blew up Megaton!".

Each one of those games is about your own story. To me, a game where you don't have a say in the story isn't an RPG. Butthurt will ensue.

For reference, I consider games like Wizardry RPGs because, even though they don't actually have a "story", it is up to you who you bring to the dungoen, it is up to you what kind of characters they are, their stories, and so on. All of that is spelled out in Final Fantasy and plenty of other JRPGs. Even the whole "who you bring against Sephiroth" is crap, we all know it is gameplay limitations. But you can't both nuke and not nuke Megaton, or kill the Ghouls in Necropolis and not kill the Ghouls in Necropolis.
 
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I was weaned on Wizardry, Gold Box, M&M, and RTwP IE. I find now I have no patience whatsoever for any game with RTwP combat mechanics. I find lately my taste has changed course to more roguelike & deeper turn-based tactical experiences. Two completely different experiences in and of themselves, but I find that my cRPG tastes are evolving, to be sure.
 

ilitarist

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For example, if I said Final Fantasy wasn't a roleplaying game, people would go bonkers here. But to me, it isn't a roleplaying game. It is a game with turn based combat, stats, and different "classes" (characters), but I'm just someone who is pupeteering a bunch of guys. It may as well be a movie for all I care and it will just be the same. My Final Fantasy experience is the same as any other person's Final Fantasy experience.

Story-wise - yes. However in those games (at least those I've played, 4-9) you can use different parties with different abilities. And sometimes have rather big sidequests. Every player will see the same movie in between gameplay stuff but they *will* have a different experience.
 

Sigourn

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Story-wise - yes. However in those games (at least those I've played, 4-9) you can use different parties with different abilities. And sometimes have rather big sidequests. Every player will see the same movie in between gameplay stuff but they *will* have a different experience.

It is true. In the end, though, nothing really changes in all Final Fantasy games I've played (VI, VII, IX, X, XII). My choice of party makes no difference in the story, and at the end of the day, it is "expected" that I meet all party members and have them join me. This is more obvious once you see the different media: all companions are there, even the hidden ones such as Yuffie and Vincent.
 

rezaf

Cipher
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Jan 26, 2015
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If I were to pick one thing that I feel has changed the most it's probably my tolerance for lack of polish, mostly when it comes to interface and presentation.
Looking at Dungeon Master, which is 30 years old now, it still looks like a professional game - it certainly could use some more colors, but it doesn't look horrible. What's more, the UI remains serviceable to this very day, which is quite an achivement if you ask me. I'm sure I could launch it now and have fun for a couple of hours.
But if I think back to Wasteland 2, with it's barren unity 3D graphics, the "that ought to do" interface, the general cutting-corners approach to everything ... yeah, I'm not so sure I'd want to play that. And it's only three years old.

Maybe I'm just an old jaded fart, but if a developer clearly tried to play out of his league nowadays, it tends to sour me on games.
 

Kem0sabe

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As I get a older my attention span decreases and I prefer shorter experiences. One of the reasons I play more consoles games than pc these days, I just plod down on the couch for a short ps4 game session.
 
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For example, if I said Final Fantasy wasn't a roleplaying game, people would go bonkers here. But to me, it isn't a roleplaying game. It is a game with turn based combat, stats, and different "classes" (characters), but I'm just someone who is pupeteering a bunch of guys. It may as well be a movie for all I care and it will just be the same. My Final Fantasy experience is the same as any other person's Final Fantasy experience.

(...)

Each one of those games is about your own story. To me, a game where you don't have a say in the story isn't an RPG. Butthurt will ensue.

I've been explaining this to people ever since Final Fantasy VII was released and everyone and their dog was hooked to it. All FF games I've played are fantasy exploration-adventure games. Stapling a spreadsheet to them does not make them roleplaying games, because by that metric, Warhammer 40k can be a roleplaying game (with better combat, a larger party, potentially a better story and the same amount of peaceful resolution, plus you can have Manowar as the soundtrack). In FF (and so many other games like them) you have your scripted encounters and if you'd rather handle it differently, fuck you, it's not on the menu, and when you have to make a choice it doesn't matter, the end result is the same.

Tl;dr: when you take "roleplaying" out of "roleplaying game" you just get a game. Which does not have to be bad, but it's like the difference between wine and must.
 

Naveen

Arcane
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Aug 23, 2015
Messages
1,115
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_resemblance

The whole codex should get familiar with the idea of family resemblance. Maybe then we can stop these incessent discussions about what single thing is fit to define RPGs.
RPGs have common features but no one feature is found in all of them.

But what is a Family or a Resemblance? And are their definitions also family resemblances?
mystery.png


:troll:
 

commie

The Last Marxist
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Where one can weep in peace
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
If I were to pick one thing that I feel has changed the most it's probably my tolerance for lack of polish, mostly when it comes to interface and presentation.
Looking at Dungeon Master, which is 30 years old now, it still looks like a professional game - it certainly could use some more colors, but it doesn't look horrible. What's more, the UI remains serviceable to this very day, which is quite an achivement if you ask me. I'm sure I could launch it now and have fun for a couple of hours.
But if I think back to Wasteland 2, with it's barren unity 3D graphics, the "that ought to do" interface, the general cutting-corners approach to everything ... yeah, I'm not so sure I'd want to play that. And it's only three years old.

Maybe I'm just an old jaded fart, but if a developer clearly tried to play out of his league nowadays, it tends to sour me on games.


What the fuck are you on about? I'm playing W2 DC now and I'm actually surprised at the detail of the graphics given the horror stories about Unity in this game and the interface is very good as well.

AS for tastes, they are same as always: I like good games, I hate shit games.



My tastes only ever get better with time.

HillaryLogo.png
 

Freddie

Savant
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Sep 14, 2016
Messages
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Mansion
Now I came to think about it more, I actually consider game length when it comes to RPG's. I have wanted to re-play Fallout: NV and Wasteland 2 for some time, but it's difficult to get to them. RPG's aren't games I like to play like hour or two every now and then, but something I like to spent more time per session.
 

Krivol

Magister
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
1,952
Location
Potatoland aka Prussia
I'm trying to reply Morrowind now and... I kinda miss Skyrim - everything is so slow. I know I just have to get through first 20 hours and all will be fine (and speed + athletics will be on proper level), but you need to remember (or scribe down!) info about multiple quests, while in Skyrim you just go forward killing stuff, mostly no brain needed. And no need to read in Skyrim...

God, I feel filthy.

Ok, good news, it took me less than 20 hours (well, about 4 hours to be honest) to get used to Morrowind. It's great game again. No way I will try Skyrim stupidity again. So, bad games are trying to change our taste, but they are just bad, silly games, that are trying to convince us that we are too tired to play anything that needs focus. We are not.

Look, my grandpa worked for 12 hours per day and he loved crossovers and other puzzles after work. We are just lazy.
 

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