How RPG fans ruined RPGs: Telengard on the Fiery BioWhore and the True Nature of the Awesome Button

[kwanzabot]

idk m8, i was too young to play any of the early/mid 80's games(although i've played a few of them ) since alot of them came out before i was born, but i did play some of the late 80's early 90's games when i was a kid(earmy MM's/later wiz/later ultimas/ few goldbox ect) and even though some of those were the first games i played imo they don't hold a candle to most of the late 90's/couple of the early 00's games i played when i was a bit older.

I THINK there's a sweet spot in any entertainment industry between to primitive and too advanced for its own good, i watch alot of movies and i always find pretty much any movie made before the 70's(except for a few) is usually pretty shit, ditto for pretty much any movie made since the mid 90's. For me pretty much all my favorite movies came out between the early 70's and mid 90s where technology wasn't so primitive but no so advanced where the focus is more on special effects then on the story :p

same with games, most modern games focus too much on graphics(not that games with good graphics can't be good it just shouldn't be the focal point) and streamlining and less on gameplay , older ones are too primitive to be interesting to me even in shooters take half life 1 vs any modern shooter and there's no comparison, fallout 1/2 vs any modern rpg and it's the same story.

just my un educated un ethical opinion though read at your own risk

 

[Trashos]

Bioware has certainly moved away from challenging combat gameplay being one of the primary design goals, but it wasn't some kind of accident or anything. It was a deliberate choice to try and expand to larger and larger markets. They haven't been as succesful as they'd like, but they are selling more games than they did before. In general codexers don't really like the direction Bioware has gone, some codexers are rather bitter about the fact that Bioware no longer makes games that are designed to appeal to them, but I think it is silly to think that it represent some kind of overall objective decline instead of a personal subjective decline. Of course proclaiming personal subjective preferences as the standards of objective quality is pretty much what the codex is all about so carry on.

They are selling more, but it looks like their marketing budget has increased as well. So not so sure that the selling more part means what you think it means. To me, Bioware look like they are one failure away from being history. On the other hand, companies like Obsidian and even freaking Piranha Bytes survived such failures. I have the theory that if Bioware dies nobody will actually care. Their workforce will be inconvenienced because they 'll have to get a new job, but that's the extent of it.

 

[Neanderthal]

kwanzabot: For me it were amazing how much o a decline there were from early nineties to early millenium, look at how stripped down BG were in comparison to later Ultimas, no NPC routines, no living world, no environmental interaction, none o really useful spells out o books just combat ones, no interesting themes or narrative, suddenly loading screens were everywhere where there'd not been none in Ultimas, BG it were an action RPG in comparison really. Set future in stone though cos it were so successful.

Then again in a lot o ways Ultima 7 heralded a lot o decline, can't deny that.

 

[Lurker King]

The idea of reactivity is very marketable. Binary morality meters actually used to sell at one point before everyone did it.

That is a fiction. That only thing that always mattered for causals is enabling the player to feel awesome. Not only that, players actually complain about reactivity getting in the way of linear playtroughs even if you provide the graphics and popamole combat. Just look at some of the F:NV reviews. You will find players complaining about “forced replay value” and “relatively limited story”.

Agree to disagree. Low expectations and good-for-what-it-is mentality is why we got where we are.

You talk as if every studio implemented decent combat systems nowadays, but they don’t. Wasteland 2: retarded combat system. Pillars of Eternity: retarded popamole inferior copy of BG combat system. Unfortunately, for us, to expect a solid combat system it’s a high expectation. To ignore this in name of innovation is like not giving too much importance to whether a car has one of the wheels. It’s a fundamental aspect. Trying new things and changing the setting is not enough if you fail to deliver this. Just look at Shadowrun. It’s one of the most boring shallow popamoler cRPGs ever, but people here praise this garbage because it’s cybernetic isometric.

 

[kwanzabot]

kwanzabot: For me it were amazing how much o a decline there were from early nineties to early millenium, look at how stripped down BG were in comparison to later Ultimas, no NPC routines, no living world, no environmental interaction, none o really useful spells out o books just combat ones, no interesting themes or narrative, suddenly loading screens were everywhere where there'd not been none in Ultimas, BG it were an action RPG in comparison really. Set future in stone though cos it were so successful.

Then again in a lot o ways Ultima 7 heralded a lot o decline, can't deny that.

i mean ultima 7's a bit of a special case but look at the old wizardry games or the goldbox games, what else is there to do in those games besides fight and kill shit lol(alot of shit)

 

[Dorateen]

look at the old wizardry games or the goldbox games, what else is there to do in those games besides fight and kill shit lol(alot of shit)

Exploration, mapping. Figuring out where to go and what to do next. Riddles and puzzles. Conquering a complex dungeon design. Problem solving, managing a roster of characters. All more intricate and challenging than post-1998 so-called role-playing games.

 

[Shin]

look at the old wizardry games or the goldbox games, what else is there to do in those games besides fight and kill shit lol(alot of shit)

Exploration, mapping. Figuring out where to go and what to do next. Riddles and puzzles. Conquering a complex dungeon design. Problem solving, managing a roster of characters. All more intricate and challenging than post-1998 so-called role-playing games.

Exploration, mapping, figuring out where to go, conquering a complex dungeon design all seems kinda ... the same? I mean, there weren't (as much) FAQ's and discussions about these games which make them a lot harder to solve. But idk, most post-98 RPG's also had "problem solving" (which game doesn't) and every party based game has you "managing a roster of characters". So basically if they removed maps from modern games (looking at you UR) they're considered to be 'intricate'?

 

[Dorateen]

Those elements are not the same.

Exploration is the act of taking characters through a previously un-visited area, discovering secrets and learning about the environment. No cheap fast travel or teleporting unless you find something to enable a navigational aid, which then is a reward for the player's diligence.

Mapping is a process required when there is no overhead automap available, when there are no quest markers, and the player is thus more engaged in the gameworld being required to pay attention to details.

Figuring out where to go in a narrative sense, in order to progress the adventure. Without overly notated journal entries automatically provided, again, so the player has to be observant, keep notes and is all around more invested.

Conquering a dungeon design encompasses a number of qualities, which includes tough combat encounters, although often in dungeon crawlers there may or may not be alternative ways around a particular obstacle. The dungeon itself becomes an opponent for the player characters to overcome. Also, roster management refers to running multiple parties. Or having extra characters on standby for a special task. This is in reference to the "old" wizardries, though it's not uncommon in other titles that feature class specific content.

Most post-98 RPGs have dumbed down these aspects to one degree or another, leaving a hollow, less satisfying experience.

 

[Ludo Lense]

The idea of reactivity is very marketable. Binary morality meters actually used to sell at one point before everyone did it.

That is a fiction. That only thing that always mattered for causals is enabling the player to feel awesome. Not only that, players actually complain about reactivity getting in the way of linear playtroughs even if you provide the graphics and popamole combat. Just look at some of the F:NV reviews. You will find players complaining about “forced replay value” and “relatively limited story”.

Fallout NV had a "legacy" in the eyes of the casual market (I REALLY don't want to know how many people played the game and think it is made by Bethesda). What you are talking about is C&C which is a deeper type of reactivity, something which casuals aren't used to, especially the consequence part (You can't have everybody like you).

What I am talking about is that there was a period of time (2005-2010 roughly) when binary morality was taken from RPGs like Fable or Kotor and shoved into action games (Dante's inferno) or Open world games (Infamous) and it was a feature on the box. This kinda subsided since people figured out it is meaningless but it makes an appearance from time to time in the mainstream (Dishonored) or shovelware RPGs (Mars:War Logs or Risen 3). The same buzzwords that describe today's Open World fiesta were used for the Binary Morality Meter "MORE CONTENT!" but this meant only situations where you only had + rather than + and -.

Agree to disagree. Low expectations and good-for-what-it-is mentality is why we got where we are.

You talk as if every studio implemented decent combat systems nowadays, but they don’t. Wasteland 2: retarded combat system. Pillars of Eternity: retarded popamole inferior copy of BG combat system. Unfortunately, for us, to expect a solid combat system it’s a high expectation. To ignore this in name of innovation is like not giving too much importance to whether a car has one of the wheels. It’s a fundamental aspect. Trying new things and changing the setting is not enough if you fail to deliver this. Just look at Shadowrun. It’s one of the most boring shallow popamoler cRPGs ever, but people here praise this garbage because it’s cybernetic isometric.

Exactly. The vast majority of RPGs have bad combat if compared to tactical games or action games (depending on what type they use). So why not just do something different rather than have the expectation that they need to go back and do the oldies "right".

EDIT: The Review link is broken for me by the way.

 

[Neanderthal]

i mean ultima 7's a bit of a special case but look at the old wizardry games or the goldbox games, what else is there to do in those games besides fight and kill shit lol(alot of shit)

Well there were a damn lot to do in first PoR, but I agree about Wizardry an later Goldboxs, that said wi Ultima head an shoulders above competition why weren't it copied an built on? Seems obvious thing to do, should have set new standard, cept it weren't, it were forgot about like Underworlds.

 

[Excidium II]

i mean ultima 7's a bit of a special case but look at the old wizardry games or the goldbox games, what else is there to do in those games besides fight and kill shit lol(alot of shit)

Well there were a damn lot to do in first PoR, but I agree about Wizardry an later Goldboxs, that said wi Ultima head an shoulders above competition why weren't it copied an built on? Seems obvious thing to do, should have set new standard, cept it weren't, it were forgot about like Underworlds.

It would have taken effort.

 

[Neanderthal]

Ha, fraid that might be true.

Same wi answer below.

 

[StrongBelwas]

i mean ultima 7's a bit of a special case but look at the old wizardry games or the goldbox games, what else is there to do in those games besides fight and kill shit lol(alot of shit)

Well there were a damn lot to do in first PoR, but I agree about Wizardry an later Goldboxs, that said wi Ultima head an shoulders above competition why weren't it copied an built on? Seems obvious thing to do, should have set new standard, cept it weren't, it were forgot about like Underworlds.

You can't sell copies with NPC routine,environmental interactions, or diverse non-combat spellset (At least, not enough to compensate for the enormous amount of work they require to do right*.) You can sell copies with romance options and action combat.

* And most of the player base won't even be able the difference between doing it right and half-assing it. i.e Bethesda.

 

[Lurker King]

The Review link is broken for me by the way.

It was a quotation in a post, but in the next post you will find some links too.

 

[Beastro]

This discussion made me realize how useless the term “decline” is. All this talk about “decline” tends to favor the mistaken belief that everything that was made before was better than it is today, and that any novelties implemented latter on such as better writing, reactivity, better UI, quest journal, etc., make them worse. That is complete gibberish and arbitrary. It’s obvious that you will find a lot of odlschool games with trash mobs and broken combat system. In fact, even the power fantasy mentality was already present in most cRPGs. The best you can say is this: odlschool games in general have sophisticated combat system, more detailed character building and less handholding. That is good, but not enough if you have retarded history, repetitive fed-ex quests, trash mobs, etc. The discussion about what is good design in cRPGs should not determined by temporal aspects, especially because players tend to have a selective memory.

Funny seeing all that shit people go on about becoming rose-tinted snobs as a kid happening before ones eyes (and to you as well).

I think the issue about a term like decline and threads like this, is how it shows how we all have our own different view on what it is despite agreeing on the surface.

It would really help a lot of people on here to realize all eras are a mixed bag and to work towards identifying what;s god in each to bring forth a better future. Read this thread brings to mind things like how Right-wingers are stereotyped as being stuck in the 50s while it's Lefties that are the majority now that just won't let that decade go.

The problem in your argument is that more abilities for each class, more character interaction, more writing and more character customization do not imply automatically in popamolization and are not bad things per se. In the end, it all amounts to the way they are implemented. And by the way, both melee combat and reactivity in DA:O are miles ahead of those in BG2.

That's the tricky bit. Those things don't lead to popamolization. But they lead to unbalanced, broken combat. And if people would say, hey, I want choice and don't care if it breaks the combat. Then, okay, you got no beef with me.

The issue is, long ago people demanded choice, and when told that it would break combat said: "It's doesn't matter, as long as it's fun." (They even said it on this very forum, which is what sparked this whole thing.) And now rpgs all have broken combat, and people are suddenly saying, "Hey, where did all the quality combat go?"

Everyone here is a little older now than when you were a starry-eyed rugrat playing your first rpg, and it's time to make an adult decision. What is important to you? Combat balance, which leads to quality combat, or lots of character customization mixed with lots of story interaction for your choiced character, which doesn't (it can lead to having a lot of choice in combat, but not a lot of balance). Pick one. But if you pick story interaction and customization, and then ask where the quality combat went, I and anyone else from the old days is going to say, We told you so.

EDIT: what does lead to popamolization is mixing story interaction and character customization with super power-style movesets, the power fantasy, and Joseph Campbell heroic myth.

Broken combat is like desert.

It's also like stealing.

When you can have it in small doses, like desert, it's awesome, when it's all you eat it's sickening.

Like stealing, it needs to be out of the way so you feel like you discovered a secret and novel advantage that you can press on tough enemies and laugh in glee at the drop in difficulty.

Problem today is it's desert all the time and also instead of the effect given to steal the advantage you're handed it. Take, for instance, the combat in DA:O where anyone who wants to enjoy combat in the slightest avoids using things like Storm of the Century because they're so overpowered but also they're the end progression of the damage spell line and so lose the awesome factor if getting away with a crime. Top that on top of the difficulty of the rest of the combat and you don't feel like wiping away encounters that were previously challenges, because they never were, so you work to gimp yourself to give you a sense of having a more hearty meal of substance than cake and twinkies.

 

[Neanderthal]

Ere anybody seen this interview wi Rob Kuntz, one o original creators o D&D? Pretty good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGQ_IICAWkI

 

[Ludo Lense]

The Review link is broken for me by the way.

It was a quotation in a post, but in the next post you will find some links too.

I see. At any rate, it didn't make me change anything about my reply.

 

[TigerKnee]

Balance.

Balance

Balance

Balance

Balance

Holy crap, I cracked the code. Telengard is

WE HAVE TO WARN THE OTHE-

 

[Mustawd]

Balance.

Balance

Balance

Balance

Balance

Holy crap, I cracked the code. Telengard is

WE HAVE TO WARN THE OTHE-

Got him coach...

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

 

[Telengard]

It would be interesting if the Character Balance scheme that Commutard Sawyer dreamed of became something that so traumatized the Codex that they will forever after be triggered by even mentioning the word, and to such a degree that they start seeking lopsided combat even moreso than exists now, such that the Player becomes so empowered with supra abilities (which the computer isn't even programmed to fight against) that the enemy just falls over as soon as the Player walks into the room. Don't even have to click anything, it all just happens automatically, and the traumatized Codexians love it.

Oh wait. Final Fantasy XV already has that, and there are Codexians drooling over it even now. Never mind.

 

[Lurker King]

Telengard is WE HAVE TO WARN THE OTHE-

By saying that a game needs to be more balanced, Telengard means that it needs to be more challenging; by saying the same thing, Sawyer means precisely the opposite, i.e., a game that needs to prevent the player from poor choices, especially in character building. “Balance” in Telengard terms implies in more interesting and rewarding games for cRPG connoisseurs and frustrating experiences for laymen, while “balance” in Sawyer terms means a rewarding and interesting games for laymen, and bland and tedious experience for cRPG connoisseurs. As you can see, Sawyer not only shit all over PoE, but he also gave a bad name to one of the most important concepts in our attempts to improve the genre. Well done, Josh.

 

[Infinitron]

RPG Codex administrator DarkUnderlord on balance: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-single-player-crpgs.13876/page-2#post-250633

"Balance" in a CRPG means one thing to me. That is, if your game provides a system and a range of choices within that system, then I should be able to complete the game with any selection of the choices available.

 

[Lurker King]

RPG Codex administrator DarkUnderlord on balance: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-single-player-crpgs.13876/page-2#post-250633

"Balance" in a CRPG means one thing to me. That is, if your game provides a system and a range of choices within that system, then I should be able to complete the game with any selection of the choices available.

That it’s a crude and circular reasoning. Let’s assume we are talking about a D&D inspired game with classes and such. A system with stats, skills, races and abilities, represent all the possibilities in the game world, from an amateur weakling with poor choice of stats and skills, to a gifted fighter, thief, mage, etc. From the fact that you can make a poor build that represents a weakling, either because you don’t understand the system, either because you don’t want to think about its intricacies, it doesn’t follow that you should be able to beat the game with that build. In fact, it makes perfect sense that you shouldn’t be able to complete the game with your retarded build, because it represents a weakling. A significant part of the fun it is in understanding the system in order to make a build that will work. Understanding a system, means understanding the laws of the game world that were presented to you. If you remove that because the player should be able to beat the game with any stats and skills, then challenge is thrown out of the window and we are walking in popamoler territory.

 

[Lurker King]

The more I think about it, the more sense this makes. A cRPG can allow you to be exploded in a trap, poisoned, stabbed, etc., in other words, a cRPG can allow you to fail because that it’s the part where the thinking and challenge comes into. You need to provide counter-measures to surpass those challenges provided by the game world in order to survive. If you assume that you should be able to beat the game with all your failures, then they are not really failures, are they? On the contrary, you should be able to beat the game if you found a way to avoid the failures (at least, the most dangerous ones), which include your poor choices in character building.

 

[Ludo Lense]

DU is talking about player validation. In his view, a game is unbalanced when there are "useless" skills which you should never pick. It can have different difficulty curves based on what you pick but there should be moments where what you choose is validated in some way, otherwise why is it there? (This is more about classless systems than those with classes)

A good example is Deus Ex where you can finish the game by only pumping Poison Resistance and Swimming...it will be very hard, but you get the point.