Decline I hate what has been done to video game mages/wizards because I play shitty action games

[Jedi Master Radek]

It's worth noting that the squishy wizard in robes is to a large extent a Dungeons & Dragons thing, from where it trickled down everywhere else. In a whole lot of myth and literature, magic is largely used by the same people who do any sort of heroic or villainous things, and anthropologically speaking, in societies that believed in magic, the people considered to have magic powers tended to be big, powerful and charismatic people - certainly not the guys who were picked last in gym class.

That's not to say that I don't feel a degree of affection for the D&D style of wizardry, especially compared to the modern fare - at least it imbues magic with some aesthetic and theme beyond wizards being glorified field artillery that shoots out kewl magic beams and not much else. But I think that's largely an issue of treading the same high fantasy waters as well as RPGs so often being almost exclusively combat-oriented, to the effect that all characters have to be equally combat-viable and not much else. Rather than returning to the old D&D wizards, I think it'd be much preferable if magic, both mechanically and in terms of different settings, was diversified a great deal from what we see now.

Physically weak wizards are logical if you consider they spent most of their time sniffing glue in libraries and meditating. Having next to no physical activities or learning related skills takes a toll. In RL a person like that can't just grab a sword and start swinging (also trying to punch someone would result in a broken hand).

Actually- no. Real wizards would be engaging in physical activities just to be healthy and have a better working mind. Magnus Carlsen regularly play tennis and do other sports just to have a clearer mind on chessboard.

 

[Slow James]

It's worth noting that the squishy wizard in robes is to a large extent a Dungeons & Dragons thing, from where it trickled down everywhere else. In a whole lot of myth and literature, magic is largely used by the same people who do any sort of heroic or villainous things, and anthropologically speaking, in societies that believed in magic, the people considered to have magic powers tended to be big, powerful and charismatic people - certainly not the guys who were picked last in gym class.

That's not to say that I don't feel a degree of affection for the D&D style of wizardry, especially compared to the modern fare - at least it imbues magic with some aesthetic and theme beyond wizards being glorified field artillery that shoots out kewl magic beams and not much else. But I think that's largely an issue of treading the same high fantasy waters as well as RPGs so often being almost exclusively combat-oriented, to the effect that all characters have to be equally combat-viable and not much else. Rather than returning to the old D&D wizards, I think it'd be much preferable if magic, both mechanically and in terms of different settings, was diversified a great deal from what we see now.

Physically weak wizards are logical if you consider they spent most of their time sniffing glue in libraries and meditating. Having next to no physical activities or learning related skills takes a toll. In RL a person like that can't just grab a sword and start swinging (also trying to punch someone would result in a broken hand).

Actually- no. Real wizards would be engaging in physical activities just to be healthy and have a better working mind. Magnus Carlsen regularly play tennis and do other sports just to have a clearer mind on chessboard.

Take your average engineer or lab rat and give them a sword. Tell me how it is realistic that someone who has a career devoted to the cerebral would, across the board, similarly devote themselves to A) being in excellent physical shape and B) expert at martial combat.

Because that's what we are talking about here - warriors are trained extensively in combat before they are Level 1, simply because they are warriors. A level 10 commoner is inferior in combat to a level 5 warrior. A wizard should be, at best, equal with a commoner, at worst vastly inferior. At least a commoner works the fields, instead of a wizard who reads books all day.

 

[pakoito]

Dota's Invoker has plenty of fun lines and style to represent the classic elemental, fireball caster guy, though he's the typical arrogant mage ("I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance!")

Bro do you even Rubick.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

It's worth noting that the squishy wizard in robes is to a large extent a Dungeons & Dragons thing, from where it trickled down everywhere else. In a whole lot of myth and literature, magic is largely used by the same people who do any sort of heroic or villainous things, and anthropologically speaking, in societies that believed in magic, the people considered to have magic powers tended to be big, powerful and charismatic people - certainly not the guys who were picked last in gym class.

That's not to say that I don't feel a degree of affection for the D&D style of wizardry, especially compared to the modern fare - at least it imbues magic with some aesthetic and theme beyond wizards being glorified field artillery that shoots out kewl magic beams and not much else. But I think that's largely an issue of treading the same high fantasy waters as well as RPGs so often being almost exclusively combat-oriented, to the effect that all characters have to be equally combat-viable and not much else. Rather than returning to the old D&D wizards, I think it'd be much preferable if magic, both mechanically and in terms of different settings, was diversified a great deal from what we see now.

Physically weak wizards are logical if you consider they spent most of their time sniffing glue in libraries and meditating. Having next to no physical activities or learning related skills takes a toll. In RL a person like that can't just grab a sword and start swinging (also trying to punch someone would result in a broken hand).

Actually- no. Real wizards would be engaging in physical activities just to be healthy and have a better working mind. Magnus Carlsen regularly play tennis and do other sports just to have a clearer mind on chessboard.

Take your average engineer or lab rat and give them a sword. Tell me how it is realistic that someone who has a career devoted to the cerebral would, across the board, similarly devote themselves to A) being in excellent physical shape and B) expert at martial combat.

Because that's what we are talking about here - warriors are trained extensively in combat before they are Level 1, simply because they are warriors. A level 10 commoner is inferior in combat to a level 5 warrior. A wizard should be, at best, equal with a commoner, at worst vastly inferior. At least a commoner works the fields, instead of a wizard who reads books all day.

A is actually probable. It's quite common to spend spare time on a gym or playing sports. It's healthy, it's recommended. If somebody is not totally crammed with work and cares about health, then I can see them having good physical shape. It can also help clear a mind. B has a slime chance, through. Commoner through overworking and starving can be actually in a worse shape than a wizard.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Magic being too "available" in games is the biggest problem I think.

It's fine for mages to have super powerful spells, or be able to use other weapons. As long as magic isn't the go to solution to EVERY encounter.

Inb4 the one token battle where magic doesn't work.

 

[Ninjerk]

Dota's Invoker has plenty of fun lines and style to represent the classic elemental, fireball caster guy, though he's the typical arrogant mage ("I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance!")

Bro do you even Rubick.

Shut your mouth.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

My favorite excuse for mages slowly turning into pure DPS fireball dishers is that the old utility stuff (say, Levitation, walking through walls, etc) is "not possible with today's technology", and variations of it such as "well that would break the game". Like, I know it means that the more complex your game looks the harder it is to create ways to interact with it (while a roguelike just needs to add some lines of text), but the idea of advancements in technology forcing things to be more primitive just sounds so alien and repulsive and xeno and wrong.

I've been replaying Morrowind a while ago and oh my fucking god I didn't remembered the Mage in TES3 being so atrociously stupid and boring, while having a fuckbunch of different spells to use. Morrowind is the ultimate exception to the rule, it's crazy good to theorycraft about but it's terrible to play with the (pure) mage. Maybe it's the fact that Morrowind sucks Wyvern cocks outside of its great setting, I don't know.

Skyrim's implementation manages to be even worse (even though it got rid of failure chance and need for resting which are absolute anti-fun hell when coupled with a system that requires you to use skills frequently to level them). Oh, you're leveling up and now you have more MP to work with? Here, your spells are cheaper now. Maybe they even cost zero MP, if you're wearing enchanted robes.

Spoiler

Wait, what?

 

[Slow James]

A is actually probable. It's quite common to spend spare time on a gym or playing sports. It's healthy, it's recommended. If somebody is not totally crammed with work and cares about health, then I can see them having good physical shape. It can also help clear a mind. B has a slime chance, through. Commoner through overworking and starving can be actually in a worse shape than a wizard.

I'm not sure the word "probable" applies.

Are there athlete intellectuals? Sure. Are they the standard of the exception? I think we know the answer to that.


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[Daemongar]

Just to bring it back to the D&D roots: original PC's in 1st and 2nd edition were very likely to have very bad ability scores. One good score would go in INT and the rest of the scores would be pretty crappy. The odds of a mage with a high STR or CON would be pretty slim. They needed every resource to overcome 1d4 HPs per level. Look at old D&D manuals to see 10th + level mages with 31 Hps. The reason mages are great at high level was that it was so damn hard to live to high level, it was a reward for surviving.

Games kept the same dynamic for a while even though mages were pretty much guaranteed to survive as long as the player played. People just don't dump dead characters. Players res mages with no CON penalty or simply reload. Those days of permanent death of a party member are long gone. The challenge of simply existing as a weak mage in a fantasy setting are completely stripped from crpgs.

 

[TheGreatOne]

A is actually probable. It's quite common to spend spare time on a gym or playing sports. It's healthy, it's recommended.

Those sure were popular activites in the medieval times

 

[MicoSelva]

I love powerful mages too. I was very sad when I learned that PoE will not feature spells along the line of cloud kill or finger of death.

Modern game designers (not calling any names - ) consider D&D spellcasters overpowered compared to other classes, and it is always easier to balance down, rather than balance up. Yeah, it would be much cooler if designers made other classes stronger rather than nerfing casters, but it is harder to do. Ok, fighters could become squad leaders and get NPC followers who would level up along them and create a small army at high levels, but rogues - I have no idea. And this gets progressively harder with more classes. Barbarians? Rangers? Bards? Monks? Yeah, you can give everyone magic-like abilities, but it kind of defies the point (everyone becomes a caster of sorts).

 

[pakoito]

Dota's Invoker has plenty of fun lines and style to represent the classic elemental, fireball caster guy, though he's the typical arrogant mage ("I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance!")

Bro do you even Rubick.

Shut your mouth.

 

[Xathrodox86]

Never really understood the merit of magic users. Spamming fireball/sleep in any given cRPG game always bored the hell out of me. That said I remember games like BG 1 and 2 and VtM: Redemption and the system that governed the use of magic there. It was at the same time incredibly punishing and harsh but also rewarding if used right. You couldn't spam lightning bolts out of your butt, like in Skyrim and DA.

 

[V_K]

It's worth noting that the squishy wizard in robes is to a large extent a Dungeons & Dragons thing, from where it trickled down everywhere else. In a whole lot of myth and literature, magic is largely used by the same people who do any sort of heroic or villainous things, and anthropologically speaking, in societies that believed in magic, the people considered to have magic powers tended to be big, powerful and charismatic people - certainly not the guys who were picked last in gym class.

That's not to say that I don't feel a degree of affection for the D&D style of wizardry, especially compared to the modern fare - at least it imbues magic with some aesthetic and theme beyond wizards being glorified field artillery that shoots out kewl magic beams and not much else. But I think that's largely an issue of treading the same high fantasy waters as well as RPGs so often being almost exclusively combat-oriented, to the effect that all characters have to be equally combat-viable and not much else. Rather than returning to the old D&D wizards, I think it'd be much preferable if magic, both mechanically and in terms of different settings, was diversified a great deal from what we see now.

Physically weak wizards are logical if you consider they spent most of their time sniffing glue in libraries and meditating. Having next to no physical activities or learning related skills takes a toll. In RL a person like that can't just grab a sword and start swinging (also trying to punch someone would result in a broken hand).

Actually- no. Real wizards would be engaging in physical activities just to be healthy and have a better working mind. Magnus Carlsen regularly play tennis and do other sports just to have a clearer mind on chessboard.

As a person working on a PhD I find this statement extremely laughable.

 

[Perkel]

I love powerful mages too. I was very sad when I learned that PoE will not feature spells along the line of cloud kill or finger of death.

Modern game designers (not calling any names - ) consider D&D spellcasters overpowered compared to other classes, and it is always easier to balance down, rather than balance up. Yeah, it would be much cooler if designers made other classes stronger rather than nerfing casters, but it is harder to do. Ok, fighters could become squad leaders and get NPC followers who would level up along them and create a small army at high levels, but rogues - I have no idea. And this gets progressively harder with more classes. Barbarians? Rangers? Bards? Monks? Yeah, you can give everyone magic-like abilities, but it kind of defies the point (everyone becomes a caster of sorts).

My most hated change in newer RPG are fighters becoming essentially mages.


God damn i loved lvl1 blind spell in bg1. It would allow me to kill lvl 3-4 warrior just like that.

 

[pakoito]

Charm person in ToEE was easy mode too, you could get named bosses into your party and then oneshot them.

 

[MicoSelva]

Yeah, and it was part of what made that game FUN.

 

[k0syak]

As a person working on a PhD I find this statement extremely laughable.

^^Agreed. I used to earn money by punching people, but after 5 years of sitting on ass get exhausted from 2 minutes of any pshys. activity.

 

[baturinsky]

Ok, fighters could become squad leaders and get NPC followers who would level up along them and create a small army at high levels, but rogues - I have no idea. And this gets progressively harder with more classes. Barbarians? Rangers? Bards? Monks? Yeah, you can give everyone magic-like abilities, but it kind of defies the point (everyone becomes a caster of sorts).

Magic gear is a great equaliser. Fighters can survive bigger spike damage and not limited by spells-per-day. Rogue can bypass fight and Use Magic Item. Cleric is just a fatter mage.

As a person working on a PhD I find this statement extremely laughable.

^^Agreed. I used to earn money by punching people, but after 5 years of sitting on ass get exhausted from 2 minutes of any pshys. activity.

RPG mages work in field.

 

[Slow James]

I love powerful mages too. I was very sad when I learned that PoE will not feature spells along the line of cloud kill or finger of death.

Modern game designers (not calling any names - ) consider D&D spellcasters overpowered compared to other classes, and it is always easier to balance down, rather than balance up. Yeah, it would be much cooler if designers made other classes stronger rather than nerfing casters, but it is harder to do. Ok, fighters could become squad leaders and get NPC followers who would level up along them and create a small army at high levels, but rogues - I have no idea. And this gets progressively harder with more classes. Barbarians? Rangers? Bards? Monks? Yeah, you can give everyone magic-like abilities, but it kind of defies the point (everyone becomes a caster of sorts).

Balancing classes for combat is the problem - there needs to be more to a character build than freaking combat.

Wizards are weak in combat at low levels, but have a host of utility spells that help parties. Rogues are indispensable with trap disarming, lock picking, detecting/avoiding enemies, etc.

The problem isn't that Mages are Uber-powerful at higher levels... the problem is that they took fighters as of the few classes that should be solely combat-build focused and made EVERY class soley combat-build focused. You have to nerf the fighters to be as useful as rogues in a fight, then you have to boost up low or eel Mages to be staff blasters who rotate their most powerful nuke spells based on an MMO cooldown method.

This results in a wizard raining down fire and destruction every sixty seconds and only doing as much damage as a fighter swinging a sword in a really big arc (or whatever silly Soul Caliber move the devs give the fighter as their most powerful move).

DnD balance is not really a problem if you factor that more goes into a party (especially at lower and mid-levels) than just "stab-stab-pew-pew" combat.


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[MicoSelva]

Overall, I agree, Slow James, but this thread has been about mages and combat from the beginning (read the opening post), so your arguments kind of fall flat

 

[Slow James]

Overall, I agree, Slow James, but this thread has been about mages and combat from the beginning (read the opening post), so your arguments kind of fall flat

I disagree - Mages were turned into battle blasters by the removal of non-combat skills across the board by ARPGs. It removed the entire dimension of magic outside of doing damage. In that regard, Mages are insanely overpowered, but have real limits on how often they use that power (at least in DnD).

With the Diablo/MMO/ARPG model, Mages are instead expected to spam magic attacks non-stop, turning a staff from a worthless combat stick that had (sparingly used) magical attacks to a electric rifle, while the spells most powerful in a Mage's arsenal were to be used over and over and over again.

When everything becomes about combat, that's when balancing must occur. And it is completely the fault of balancing that Mages are now bastardized archers instead of a more classical squishy, "break-in-case-of-emergency" class.

 

[MicoSelva]

If you disagree that I agree, I have nothing else to say.

 

[Slow James]

If you disagree that I agree, I have nothing else to say.

Awww. You're not being any fun.


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[baturinsky]

If 90% to 100% of the game is combat, it's no wonder that wizards are all about combat too.
And if there is something besides combat, casters are first to get some useful non-combat abilities. Travelling, buffing non-combat skills and abilities, crafting magic stuff, charming NPCs, navigation, divination, removing obstacles, etc.