Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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i want to make an rpg, have no skills, where to start

Discussion in 'Codex Workshop' started by The Game Analists, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. oasis789 Arcane

    oasis789
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    What exactly is the goal here? If you want to get an industry job, you need skills, and you can demonstrate skills with a portfolio: start with a NWN2 module or something similar, where the assets and systems are already there and you just need to focus on the level design, storytelling etc.
     
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  2. Excidium II Arcane

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    I gather he has ideas and wants to make game.
     
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  3. The Game Analists Arcane

    The Game Analists
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    ^

    I am bored and I'm sick of wasting endless time and opportunities playing games, and I've wanted to make games for years, but I always beat myself down and said "no, it'll take too much time" and "you dont have the skills"

    I've been saying that since I was 15, and I'm 28 now. I want to learn some skills. It's not like I don't have the time. Holy shit.
     
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  4. oasis789 Arcane

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    Let me see if I get this right. You want to make games, but you don't want to get a job in the industry, you just want to make your own games independently, and you don't want to gain experience/skills/contacts in the industry first like most indie devs either. You basically want to be the next toby fox or eric barone. Have I understood correctly?
     
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  5. The Game Analists Arcane

    The Game Analists
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    ...

    This is mostly for fun, and for my own interest and amusement. I'm not doing this to make money, just amuse myself in a more productive way.

    Now please give me the speech about how i'm going to be a failure and end up killing myself or something. Jumping jesus
     
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  6. Barnabas Scholar Patron Shitposter

    Barnabas
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    I believe in u

    U can download unity engine free trial and fool around with that
     
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  7. oasis789 Arcane

    oasis789
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    >asks for clarification to better give advice
    >tagged retarded

    No good deed goes unpunished! Good luck with your game.
     
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  8. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
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    The Codex. The Codex never changes. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
     
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  9. Nathaniel3W Rockwell Studios Developer

    Nathaniel3W
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    How about this instead?

    [​IMG]

    Just expect, starting right now, that the entire internet will think that everything you do and everything you create is going to be complete shit. Every screenshot, every question, every update. If the criticism is helpful, follow it. If it's not helpful, ignore it. There will be too many people telling you that you suck to respond to all of them. Just keep learning, improving, and working.
     
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  10. The Game Analists Arcane

    The Game Analists
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    Okay so you see this post here Oasis? This post makes you sound like you're about to give the "It's time to give up on your dreams" speech. I've read it directed to me and many others before. You're not asking me for clarification, you're asking me if I plan to just pull a hat trick and suddenly release a game that explodes into popularity and makes millions of dollars so you can shit on me and tell me I'm fucking stupid. You're not the first person on the internet do to this to someone. I've browsed 4chan enough that, well, that's the number one thing people do. Internet folks push you down and kick you hard.

    Cory Bunnel. Look that guy up. Said he wanted to work at Nintendo of Japan. Was told it's impossible. A decade later he's a programmer on the new Zelda, is a citizen of Japan with an adorable wife. Whoopsie, it turns out if you actually put effort into things it works.

    No. I want to make a stealth focused, 2d sprite based RPG. You're a thief trying to pay back a debt so you gotta go on heists or else you're fucked. It's an ode to Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books, which are easily some of my favorite stories. I'm planning to release whatever finished product I make for free so I can get advice from people that might care how to fix it. I fully expect Excidium II to be around in 5-10 years and tell me this game is hot garbage but also hand me a small amount of things to improve. This is meant to be a hobby, I'm not looking to make millions, I'm literally just trying to have a more productive hobby than simply just playing video games. I'm bored of playing video games. I have 300 hours played since I bought my switch on my switch and JUST THINK WHAT I COULD HAVE GOTTEN DONE IN THAT TIME, NIGGA! People knit, learn instruments. They're not trying to become rich, they're just learning how to play music or knit sweaters because it's fun. If you have some real advice I'm all for it, but if you're just going to go, as I expect you are, "Give up on your dreams man! More indie devs make ZERO money versus those that do!" then just fuck off.
    And if you think I'm being too harsh, tell me what your actual intentions in this thread were and what advice "get unity and start doing tutorials bro. you will probably have to learn how to program." wouldn't have covered.
     
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  11. The Game Analists Arcane

    The Game Analists
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    I
    I know how the internet works. I'm not looking for a safe space. Or if I was, I wouldn't come here.
     
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  12. Repulsive Self-Ejected Patron

    Self-Ejected
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    Learn UE 4. Easy as shit to use and also comes with a template for creating pretty much anything. It also has an extremely powerful blueprint system so you can get a lot done without knowing a single line of code.
     
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  13. Lexx Augur

    Lexx
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    Well, just make mods? Take Fallout New Vegas or Skyrim or whatever and start toying around with the construction kit. Read many tutorials and recreate what they tell you. Once you got a hang of what you're doing, you can start doing some smaller project like... I don't know, make a quest with 2 NPCs at max. Nothing big, because then you will just fail. Start small, basically start as small as possible. Do not get trapped in making graphics or whatever. If you start to care only about a pretty game menu or something, your project will fail.

    Your project has a 50% chance not to fail if you start with writing good documents. If you want to know how good design documents can look like, check out the old leaked Van Buren docs. In them you can find a general buildup and many hints about stuff you have to think about. If you don't even write a (rather detailed) base document and just start making graphics, your project has a 90% chance to fail.
     
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  14. gaussgunner Cipher

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    So you want a pure 2D sidescroller. That makes things easier; no isometric fuckery and no 8-way spritesheets or 3D models.

    Game Maker Studio might be good for that. Never tried it myself, but I've seen indie games using it. Look at RPG Maker too just to get an idea of everything a basic RPG engine does.

    I'm guessing you will want to get into programming if you care about game mechanics and non-CYOA story systems. It's not super hard. Try making a few small text adventures.
     
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  15. Make America Great Again Agesilaus Arcane

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    Making short CYOA games is very easy, try making one. Here is a basic CYOA game I made without too much planning or preparation:

    https://www.keksociety.com/2017/01/25/aeschines-glimpse-of-adulthood-available-for-android-windows/

    However, I think we both want to make something more complex and impressive. Doing that, though, involves a lot of work until you develop your own programming and art skills. Or, you can try to form a team.

    The latter is my suggestion. I am not even thinking about programming languages or artwork at this point. I'm just focusing on creating a design document and finishing all the writing. Then, when all the writing is complete and the game has a nice pdf design document, I will try and find some people to help with programming and art.

    Does anyone here have any experience putting together a team, or approaching established groups?
     
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  16. Keldryn Arcane

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    Putting together a team isn't super difficult -- the tricky part is keeping that team over the course of many months when everyone is working on it in their spare time and not getting paid. You'll make great progress at first and then later on 6 months will go by with virtually nothing accomplished and half the team has dropped off the face of the earth (I've been on both sides of this).

    Established groups generally aren't looking for game designs to work on, nor are designers in particularly high demand. Most often they need artists or programmers.

    If you have a design that you want to work on, your best option is to start work on it and try to recruit others once you have a working prototype to show.
     
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  17. Make America Great Again Agesilaus Arcane

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    For a cRPG, the writing would be up there with the programming and artwork, right? The completed writing is many hours of work. Having made the simple CYOA game linked in the other post, I can definitely appreciate how long the artwork can take, but a major issue was the motivation to write large amounts of dialogue of sufficient quality and historical accuracy, and have it piece together properly. Not to mention drafting item lists and descriptions, maps, etc.

    I agree with you that for other genres it is much less important; I was playing around with Streets of Rogue recently, and the writing for that could be done on the fly (although it is well done).
     
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  18. Keldryn Arcane

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    Yes and no.

    The writing is important -- but it isn't gameplay (unless we're talking about a CYOA or text adventure). All of the brilliant dialogue and in-depth world building doesn't count for much unless there is an actual game making use of it.

    I think that I often come across as dismissive of design documents. Mostly because I've seen countless would-be game designers writing massive volumes (world hisyory and lore, drawing world maps, etc) without ever really trying to implement even the most basic gameplay systems.

    For a dialogue heavy game, write up 2 or 3 characters and then get those conversations into a working prototype before writing any more content (just IMO of course).

    And that's why I virtually always discourage people on message boards from starting by writing detailed design docs.

    For experienced designers working as part of an established team, they are absolutely essential.

    For a hobbyist with little or no game development experience, they are a complete waste of time, in my opinion. One is far better off prototyping different gameplay ideas and learning how to iterate on those ideas.

    And if you want to someday recruit a team to build your game, a design document alone isn't generally going to cut it. Certainly, the people you REALLY want working with you aren't going to be swayed unless you have something playable.

    I don't recommend that anyone learn to program a game from scratch unless a) they really want to or b) they want to be a game programmer. Get either Unity or Unreal, and get some sort of game framework or visual scripting tool. That gives you a huge head start on developing gameplay instead of spending weeks just getting a character walking around the screen.

    TL;DR: Inexperienced designers who start with writing design docs generally include exponentially more content than is reasonable to include in the game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  19. The Game Analists Arcane

    The Game Analists
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    meanwhile im using tutorials to make my sprite(a penis) jump. Amazing game incoming here fellas.
     
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  20. Nathaniel3W Rockwell Studios Developer

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    I would say that for a beginner, do not try to form a team. I guarantee you everyone will drop out before anything gets accomplished. If however you're working by yourself, you can work on things that interest you, and you can learn what you need to learn, and go at your own pace. And then everything is your own responsibility and no one else's.

    After you've learned something about making games, if you have an idea--

    --Actually, let me go off on a tangent here. Ideas are cheap. Everyone has an idea. Most people have lots of ideas. This is why writing and game design documentation are generally considered the least important aspects among small-time devs and aspiring devs. It's because there is an overabundance of people who want to make a game--tell a story, be the virtual dungeon master, or whatever--and there is a shortage of people who have the technical and artistic skills to turn that idea into something worth playing.

    So back to what I was saying, if you have learned how to make a game by working on your own little projects, and then you still have an idea that you won't be able to realize by yourself, then prototype it, fill it with crappy programmer art, just make something to show the concept. And then recruit a team.
     
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  21. Keldryn Arcane

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    Yes. Not only are ideas a dime a dozen, but frequently those ideas change into something completely different by the end of development.

    And yet I can't count how many people I've heard talk about how they have an amazing idea and extensive design docs but jealously guard them because they think someone will steal their idea. LOL.

    If all you have are "amazing" ideas, PLEASE develop some technical skills. Don't be the "ideas guy."
     
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  22. gaussgunner Cipher

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    Yup. I've tried once so far; also been in a band, haha. Too many distractions, everyone involved in everything, nobody in charge. What we needed was a manager.

    Once in a while I'm tempted to start or join a hobbyist team project, just for fun, no money involved. But without deadlines and paychecks, motivation will drop off. Whenever there's a disagreement, everyone will expect to get their own way because they're working for free, and when they don't they'll quit.

    Starting a company is risky these days (in USA at least). Bankruptcy is a huge hassle if you fail. To succeed you need more money than you can imagine, for management and legal/bureaucratic bullshit. If you can actually raise the money from investors (or kickstarter) you're a slave to them. Then you have to be a slavedriver and rush the game into production before the money runs out, and sell enough copies to pay off debts and fund the initial development of your next game. It begs the question: why not just work for an existing AAA studio?

    So I make games I can build myself (within a few years) with low graphic standards so I can focus on systems and programming. I could farm out some artwork and writing, but that's work-for-hire, not a proper team.
     
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  23. ProphetSword Arcane

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    The best piece of helpful advice I can give is this: Just do it.

    I run into a lot of guys on the Internet across various different hobbies I have who say things like: "I want to do this," but then they don't put in the time, the effort or the work. This stuff isn't magic; it takes hard ass work. You will have to put the work in. There's no way around it. There's no shortcut.

    If you can commit to putting in the work and opening up your mind about learning new stuff, you'll get where you're going. If you want to try to do this by next week, you're going to fail. I don't say that to be a jerk, it's just reality. It'll take a long time to even get the fundamentals down.

    There's a lot of moving pieces to building a CRPG. A lot. And they all have to work together. You can use a framework or a pre-existing engine as a shortcut if you want, but even that's only going to take you so far. So, expect to work hard.

    If you're like me, the work will be a thing of passion and it'll keep propelling you forward. Are you passionate about it? If you are, then good luck on your journey.
     
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  24. The Game Analists Arcane

    The Game Analists
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    Well, I plan ot learn how to play. My ultimate dream would be to make a Dungeon crawl classics style game - you run through levels with dirt-weak peasants that die in 1-2 hits and you try to survive. Deaths = using up your pool of peasants. Im sure that already exists though
     
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  25. ProphetSword Arcane

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    Even if it does exist, it doesn't matter. I've played plenty of games that took concepts from other games. Sometimes, that can be a good thing, especially if the game improves on the formula. So, I wouldn't be too hung up on that.

    Don't know if anyone has asked, but what style of graphics would you use to simulate all that? Overhead, isometric, 1st-person, etc.? Or, would you want it to be a text-only kind of thing? Knowing what you want to do is the first step toward learning how to get there.

    Just like you wouldn't go on a vacation without having a destination in mind, you should know where you're going so you can figure out how to get there.
     
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