Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

If I wanted to play 5th Edition D&D, I'd play Diablo 2

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
A thought just crossed my mind - they are releasing NWN:EE soon which could mean that this new CRPG could easily be NWN3. It really might just be that. More probable than new Baldur's Gate or Planescape.
Does not matter the name as long it is faithful to 5e rules and done well.
Anything done in 5th Ed is insta-banned. If I want to play 5th Ed, I'd play Diablo 2.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
A thought just crossed my mind - they are releasing NWN:EE soon which could mean that this new CRPG could easily be NWN3. It really might just be that. More probable than new Baldur's Gate or Planescape.
Does not matter the name as long it is faithful to 5e rules and done well.
Anything done in 5th Ed is insta-banned. If I want to play 5th Ed, I'd play Diablo 2.
You might have mistook it for 4th edition. That one is combat centric. 5th is more about mixing balance and old style of play (before 3rd).
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You might have mistook it for 4th edition. That one is combat centric. 5th is more about mixing balance and old style of play (before 3rd).
Yes. The old style of play was very balanced. I mean a level 5 Fighter is obviously as powerful as a level 4/4/4 Fighter/Mage/Cleric
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
You might have mistook it for 4th edition. That one is combat centric. 5th is more about mixing balance and old style of play (before 3rd).
Yes. The old style of play was very balanced. I mean a level 5 Fighter is obviously as powerful as a level 4/4/4 Fighter/Mage/Cleric
Well that is why I said it is a mix. Old style is brought back in form of players being less of magical christmas trees, spells being less per rest but more powerful and game being less about math a more about roleplaying.
Powergamers and rule lawyers that felt at home in 3e will certainly like 5e less.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You might have mistook it for 4th edition. That one is combat centric. 5th is more about mixing balance and old style of play (before 3rd).
Yes. The old style of play was very balanced. I mean a level 5 Fighter is obviously as powerful as a level 4/4/4 Fighter/Mage/Cleric
Well that is why I said it is a mix. Old style is brought back in form of players being less of magical christmas trees, spells being less per rest but more powerful and game being less about math a more about roleplaying.
Powergamers and rule lawyers that felt at home in 3e will certainly like 5e less.
Yes. You will really be able to fight an iron golem with only your normal unenchanted longsword in pre-3.x.

As for spells being less...I guess you haven't actually compared the spell per level tables. Let's see...

L20 Wizard:
BG - 5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2
3.5 - 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

L29 Wizard:
BG - 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
3.5 - 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Yeah. Really less spells per rest there.

As for powergamers and rules lawyers, you are a retard as they happen in any game system. The hate on that anti-3.x twerps have is an illusion. 3.x represented a massive jump in change compared with 1st and 2nd Ed and I am betting many of the older gamers got caught out and got shown up by someone they consider a newbie to the RPG genre. To salve their pride, they made up all sorts of nonsense about 3.x that only existed in their minds. As someone who played all three editions, I can safely say that PEOPLE are the same. A guy who plays a "powergamed" character in 3.x would be playing a f/m/c or a f/t/m in 2nd Ed. To blame a system for the actions of players is ludicrous.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
You might have mistook it for 4th edition. That one is combat centric. 5th is more about mixing balance and old style of play (before 3rd).
Yes. The old style of play was very balanced. I mean a level 5 Fighter is obviously as powerful as a level 4/4/4 Fighter/Mage/Cleric
Well that is why I said it is a mix. Old style is brought back in form of players being less of magical christmas trees, spells being less per rest but more powerful and game being less about math a more about roleplaying.
Powergamers and rule lawyers that felt at home in 3e will certainly like 5e less.
Yes. You will really be able to fight an iron golem with only your normal unenchanted longsword in pre-3.x.

As for spells being less...I guess you haven't actually compared the spell per level tables. Let's see...

L20 Wizard:
BG - 5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2
3.5 - 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

L29 Wizard:
BG - 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
3.5 - 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Yeah. Really less spells per rest there.

As for powergamers and rules lawyers, you are a retard as they happen in any game system. The hate on that anti-3.x twerps have is an illusion. 3.x represented a massive jump in change compared with 1st and 2nd Ed and I am betting many of the older gamers got caught out and got shown up by someone they consider a newbie to the RPG genre. To salve their pride, they made up all sorts of nonsense about 3.x that only existed in their minds. As someone who played all three editions, I can safely say that PEOPLE are the same. A guy who plays a "powergamed" character in 3.x would be playing a f/m/c or a f/t/m in 2nd Ed. To blame a system for the actions of players is ludicrous.
You are really tryharding to live up to your tag... did you ready anything I wrote? Maybe if you did you would have seen that I never wrote it is a copy of pre 3e.

As for spells.. again you are either lying on purpose or you are stupid. Unlike BG, in 3.5 spellcasters get spells with high main casting stat and at near level 20 it is fairly easy to have up to 30 in that stat which gives a lot of bonus spells.
Not to mention penalties for specializing in schools are less than in pre 3e.

As for your last comment, they like to gather around more in systems that are more open for them. 5e is not so they like it less.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You are really tryharding to live up to your tag... did you ready anything I wrote? Maybe if you did you would have seen that I never wrote it is a copy of pre 3e.

As for spells.. again you are either lying on purpose or you are stupid. Unlike BG, in 3.5 spellcasters get spells with high main casting stat and at near level 20 it is fairly easy to have up to 30 in that stat which gives a lot of bonus spells.
Not to mention penalties for specializing in schools are less than in pre 3e.

As for your last comment, they like to gather around more in systems that are more open for them. 5e is not so they like it less.
Please list how you got up to 30 in Intelligence. You have a 25 point buy, which is standard for the system. Try not to "powergame".

I did read what you wrote. You think 5th is some sort of return to pre-3.x days of balance and good times. Well, prove it, kid.

By the way, you know what is a restrictive system that doesn't make for powergaming? Solitaire. Have fun.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
Not to mention penalties for specializing in schools are less than in pre 3e.
Wait, what? To my recollection, AD&D specialist wizards (as seen in BG) get a single barred school. 3.5e specialist wizards have to get rid of two. It doesn't stop the notion of caster supremacy at all (Evocation and Enchantment are very common spellschool dumps), but I don't see this.
As for your last comment, they like to gather around more in systems that are more open for them. 5e is not so they like it less.
3.5/PF has a very rich CharOp community probably because the system encourages fiddling around with multiclassing and all the ton of splatbooks, and everything is free due to OGL.

Please list how you got up to 30 in Intelligence. You have a 25 point buy, which is standard for the system. Try not to "powergame".
OK. I'm pretty sure whatever I cook up is going to fall under your purview of "powergaming", even if it makes thorough sense. But let's consider a few variants:
Human Wizard
8 STR
10 DEX
12 CON
INT 18
WIS 10
CHA 8

I declare that Jeff starts off middle-aged (nothing in the book says I can't). That's +1 to INT.

By level 20, I get +5 INT points from just advancing in levels.

Headband of Intelligence equals +6 INT.
18+1+5+6 = 30, available at level 20.

We make him a Gray Elf because we can and because it's a core race from Monster Manual.
Look up the Human example above, and start with INT 20 because of the Gray Elf racial. Middle-aged, because I can.
I start with 21 Intellect, to reach 30 Intelligence I only need level 12 and a Headband of Intelligence.

At level 11, permanent cast of Polymorph Any Object to achieve the form of White Ethergaunt, granting 27 base Intelligence. With Polymorph and/or illusions it's easy to maintain a pleasant, human form to interact with others. You can easily reach 30 Intelligence from just stat boosts, and all the age multiplications still apply.

"But all of that is shitty powergaming"
The first two examples use core races and in this case, "optimization" is simply "making decisions that make sense and don't require meta-breaking effort to achieve". Everyone is optimizng - a Fighter probably wants to dump all his level up points into Strength and get Strength items, and a Wizard, who is probably only interested in funneling more knowledge into his brain, has no reason to level up into anything but Intelligence. This is pretty simple to achieve. Not that a Wizard's power comes straight from Intelligence stacking, but it's just not that hard to minmax this.


I did read what you wrote. You think 5th is some sort of return to pre-3.x days of balance and good times. Well, prove it, kid.
5e is certainly a more "friendly" systems to people who aren't optimizers, and it seems that a lot of the negative sentiment towards 5e from 3.5 fans comes from the bounded accuracy mechanic as well as there just not being nearly as much room to fidget with crazy builds, especially since 3.5 had a wealth of splatbooks that really helped in that endeavor.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
Not to mention penalties for specializing in schools are less than in pre 3e.
Wait, what? To my recollection, AD&D specialist wizards (as seen in BG) get a single barred school. 3.5e specialist wizards have to get rid of two. It doesn't stop the notion of caster supremacy at all (Evocation and Enchantment are very common spellschool dumps), but I don't see this.
I might have mistook it with how Pathfinder runs spell specialization (as I switched to Pathfinder from 3.5 as soon as it was available since it is a less broken system with only base books).
But one advantage of 3.5 specialization is that on each level up you get 2 new spells of player choice. In AD&D you get nothing, you need to find other wizards or scrolls with spells to learn new spells and being a specialist reduced the spells available.
Please list how you got up to 30 in Intelligence. You have a 25 point buy, which is standard for the system. Try not to "powergame".
OK. I'm pretty sure whatever I cook up is going to fall under your purview of "powergaming", even if it makes thorough sense. But let's consider a few variants:
Human Wizard
8 STR
10 DEX
12 CON
INT 18
WIS 10
CHA 8

I declare that Jeff starts off middle-aged (nothing in the book says I can't). That's +1 to INT.

By level 20, I get +5 INT points from just advancing in levels.

Headband of Intelligence equals +6 INT.
18+1+5+6 = 30, available at level 20.

We make him a Gray Elf because we can and because it's a core race from Monster Manual.
Look up the Human example above, and start with INT 20 because of the Gray Elf racial. Middle-aged, because I can.
I start with 21 Intellect, to reach 30 Intelligence I only need level 12 and a Headband of Intelligence.

At level 11, permanent cast of Polymorph Any Object to achieve the form of White Ethergaunt, granting 27 base Intelligence. With Polymorph and/or illusions it's easy to maintain a pleasant, human form to interact with others. You can easily reach 30 Intelligence from just stat boosts, and all the age multiplications still apply.

"But all of that is shitty powergaming"
The first two examples use core races and in this case, "optimization" is simply "making decisions that make sense and don't require meta-breaking effort to achieve". Everyone is optimizng - a Fighter probably wants to dump all his level up points into Strength and get Strength items, and a Wizard, who is probably only interested in funneling more knowledge into his brain, has no reason to level up into anything but Intelligence. This is pretty simple to achieve. Not that a Wizard's power comes straight from Intelligence stacking, but it's just not that hard to minmax this.
You don't even need to use age bonus but I've seen people use it. At levels near 20 characters can afford books that give permanent stats. Wizard players will even craft their own once they get access to Limited Wish spell. And that is all part of the core and basic rules, no need for splatbooks even.

As for Polymorph, I think you only get physical stats from creatures you turn into.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,239
Lvl 20 wizard don't even need all those spell slots. He's not some shitty adventurer anymore, he can alter reality.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
OK. I'm pretty sure whatever I cook up is going to fall under your purview of "powergaming", even if it makes thorough sense. But let's consider a few variants:
Precisely, my friend. Anything that I don't like about 3.5 is "powergaming" according to the anti-3.x-ers. An 18 Int wizard with 8 just about everywhere else is already "powergaming". Starting off at a non-standard age? Powergaming. Headband of Int +6? Powergaming. Putting all your level up stat increases into Int? Powergaming.

That is the core weakness to the anti-3.x-ers' arguments. They basically do NOT understand the system and how it works. They think that just because the numbers are different to 2nd Ed, it must be powergaming. I am betting none of them understand the philisophy behind the game and how the numbers are balanced and how the wealth by level guidelines, even the starting statline, play into the whole CR system. The morons probably haven't even read the end of the Monster Manual where it tells you how to balance monsters you create/adapt, nor did they read the part of the DMG where it gives guidelines on how to estimate CR due to increased stats and other factors.

But they are vocal and vituperous with their hate.

Now, as for 5th Ed, I insta-banned it not because of what it is but because of what WotC did with 4th Ed. Hence, my comment on playing Diablo 2 earlier. As far as I am concerned, like what Civ 4 with BTS is to the Civ series, so is 3.5 to the DnD series: Last of their kind and any subsequent ones are no longer of the series.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,899
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
the wealth by level guidelines, even the starting statline, play into the whole CR system

Does it? I ran a "pauper" campaign about decade ago, using 3.x DnD, starting off at level 6 or equivalent for planetouched and halving their pocket money cuz imma evul. I did not adjust the encounter CR to factor that in. Had no problems whatsoever because of that.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You don't even need to use age bonus but I've seen people use it. At levels near 20 characters can afford books that give permanent stats. Wizard players will even craft their own once they get access to Limited Wish spell. And that is all part of the core and basic rules, no need for splatbooks even.

As for Polymorph, I think you only get physical stats from creatures you turn into.
You are a fucking retard who mouth off about things you have no understanding of.

1. You need to use a Wish spell, not Limited Wish to get permanent stat gains, and you pay the XP cost every single time AND to get the +5, you have to use 5 Wish spells consecutively in one go. You cannot do 1 today and another 2 months down the line. Limited Wish doesn't allow you to create anything. And for a powergamer, waiting for level 20 to get 5 Wish spells (assuming you get an Int of 28 by then to get the bonus L9 spell) is for chumps. You want +5 to all stats by level 11? Go learn Magic circle vs Evil, Planar Binding, Dimension Anchor, a good Charisma check (use items to boost or use a Cha based caster) and go to town on planar bound Effreti with 3 Wish spells each. BANG! +5 to all stats at level 11. Now, would any DM worth his salt allow you to do that? Of course! Do you know how much FUN it is to play to the Efreeti's malicious nature when adventurers try to force them to give wishes?

2. Polymorph Any Object specifically makes you take on the Int of the target on top of its physical stats. In fact, one of the best ways to make PAO permanent is to cast it TWICE on a creature. I'll let you figure out why because it would be fucking funny to see you actually use your brains for once in your entire beknighted life instead of regurgitating crap you heard from someone else.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
the wealth by level guidelines, even the starting statline, play into the whole CR system

Does it? I ran a "pauper" campaign about decade ago, using 3.x DnD, starting off at level 6 or equivalent for planetouched and halving their pocket money cuz imma evul. I did not adjust the encounter CR to factor that in. Had no problems whatsoever because of that.
Depends on your stat line and how far it deviated from the 25 point buy standard. They are all inter-related. Also, equipment then to be far more important in higher levels. Half of, say 2700 (level 3 or 4, I forgot) is a lot less of a loss than half of 760,000 (level 20 or so)*, and therefore have a much lesser impact.

*numbers are from memory.

EDIT: Also number of players and how good they are at optimising their characters and what they have available in terms of resources. You can still go a long way with half wealth if you know what items to get (see: Dust of Choking and Gagging).
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
OK. I'm pretty sure whatever I cook up is going to fall under your purview of "powergaming", even if it makes thorough sense. But let's consider a few variants:
Precisely, my friend. Anything that I don't like about 3.5 is "powergaming" according to the anti-3.x-ers. An 18 Int wizard with 8 just about everywhere else is already "powergaming".
With your standard point buy, I managed to sneak in a positive CON score and kept the stats above 8 on the regular Human wizard. That said, there's absolutely no reason for me to not max out my stats if I'm in a pointbuy game. Wizard has precisely one stat that matters for what he does. Do you want more randomization? Use the other methods that the book suggests, such as rolling for stats. Do you want people to excel at more than one thing? Encourage them by increasing the point buy to, say, 32. You will actually help them that way because Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Rogues etc. require way more attributes to be competent at their jobs than a Wizard. That's simple optimization. Everyone optimizes their character. That dude who realizes Power Attack is a better feat than Toughness? He's optimizing.

There's nothing wrong with optimization in and of itself. The problem is when it runs into other 3.5 issues, such as the developer intent being to reward system mastery by putting trap options into the system.
Starting off at a non-standard age? Powergaming. Headband of Int +6? Powergaming. Putting all your level up stat increases into Int? Powergaming.
The latter especially can't be in any light seen as "powergaming", since a heroic fantasy Wizard has literally no reason not to keep constantly increasing his brain capacity.

I'm also really, really not a fan of comparing any edition of D&D, especially 4th, to Diablo 2 or WoW or whatever. I see this line of thought constantly perpetuated mainly because D&D 4E actually codified the roles of each character in their settings; roles that everyone already knew, more or less. Fighters were pretty much traditionally always Defenders with a dash of Control and Striker, Rogues' combat application was always Striker (buy lotsa d6es, time to get stabbing), Leaders are a good synonym for Healbot since it concisely presents the character and allows for some flavorful variants like the Warlord, and Controller is also a good moniker for many of the purposes of the Wizard. I honestly think the 4th edition is a very fun game, particularly for light beer & pretzels games which are mostly oriented around tactics and pushing minis around a battle map; everyone knows their role, you're not going to have any trap options, Fighters have a lot more interesting options on the battlefield than Press Full Attack. All the issue with lacking roleplaying mechanics in its core, I've always replicated by having the roleplaying mostly freeform with some d20 throwing whenever deemed necessary.

By that moniker, I'm not inclined to believe the 5th edition is "like Diablo 2" either. In fact, I've often heard that it's 3.5 that is more like Diablo 2, as some purist grognards used to comment on the WPL mechanic like this.

My DM wouldn't let me constantly run Mephisto for godly items to transfer for my level 1 Dread Necromancer for another campaign, for instance.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
With your standard point buy, I managed to sneak in a positive CON score and kept the stats above 8 on the regular Human wizard. That said, there's absolutely no reason for me to not max out my stats if I'm in a pointbuy game. Wizard has precisely one stat that matters for what he does. Do you want more randomization? Use the other methods that the book suggests, such as rolling for stats. Do you want people to excel at more than one thing? Encourage them by increasing the point buy to, say, 32. You will actually help them that way because Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, Rogues etc. require way more attributes to be competent at their jobs than a Wizard. That's simple optimization. Everyone optimizes their character. That dude who realizes Power Attack is a better feat than Toughness? He's optimizing.

There's nothing wrong with optimization in and of itself. The problem is when it runs into other 3.5 issues, such as the developer intent being to reward system mastery by putting trap options into the system.
I think you are mistaking me for an anti-powergamer. I am not. I personally don't care how other people play the game, unlike that anti-powergamer shills. To me, having a lot of options and the ability to make a character to match what I have in mind in terms of abilities is a good thing. What other people do with that is up to them. That is why I hit the nosy, totalitarian anti-powergamers so hard. Well, that and the fact the bastards generally don't know what they are talking about as I demonstrated in my post above.
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
Man, is this old chestnut about comparing D&D versions to RPGs you don't like still kicking?

Can't you guys at least update the names of the games involved, like Dragon Age Cisquisition?
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
You don't even need to use age bonus but I've seen people use it. At levels near 20 characters can afford books that give permanent stats. Wizard players will even craft their own once they get access to Limited Wish spell. And that is all part of the core and basic rules, no need for splatbooks even.

As for Polymorph, I think you only get physical stats from creatures you turn into.
You are a fucking retard who mouth off about things you have no understanding of.

1. You need to use a Wish spell, not Limited Wish to get permanent stat gains, and you pay the XP cost every single time AND to get the +5, you have to use 5 Wish spells consecutively in one go. You cannot do 1 today and another 2 months down the line. Limited Wish doesn't allow you to create anything. And for a powergamer, waiting for level 20 to get 5 Wish spells (assuming you get an Int of 28 by then to get the bonus L9 spell) is for chumps. You want +5 to all stats by level 11? Go learn Magic circle vs Evil, Planar Binding, Dimension Anchor, a good Charisma check (use items to boost or use a Cha based caster) and go to town on planar bound Effreti with 3 Wish spells each. BANG! +5 to all stats at level 11. Now, would any DM worth his salt allow you to do that? Of course! Do you know how much FUN it is to play to the Efreeti's malicious nature when adventurers try to force them to give wishes?

2. Polymorph Any Object specifically makes you take on the Int of the target on top of its physical stats. In fact, one of the best ways to make PAO permanent is to cast it TWICE on a creature. I'll let you figure out why because it would be fucking funny to see you actually use your brains for once in your entire beknighted life instead of regurgitating crap you heard from someone else.
So you just proved my point of 3.5 being a powergamers editions.
Have a nice day retard.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You don't even need to use age bonus but I've seen people use it. At levels near 20 characters can afford books that give permanent stats. Wizard players will even craft their own once they get access to Limited Wish spell. And that is all part of the core and basic rules, no need for splatbooks even.

As for Polymorph, I think you only get physical stats from creatures you turn into.
You are a fucking retard who mouth off about things you have no understanding of.

1. You need to use a Wish spell, not Limited Wish to get permanent stat gains, and you pay the XP cost every single time AND to get the +5, you have to use 5 Wish spells consecutively in one go. You cannot do 1 today and another 2 months down the line. Limited Wish doesn't allow you to create anything. And for a powergamer, waiting for level 20 to get 5 Wish spells (assuming you get an Int of 28 by then to get the bonus L9 spell) is for chumps. You want +5 to all stats by level 11? Go learn Magic circle vs Evil, Planar Binding, Dimension Anchor, a good Charisma check (use items to boost or use a Cha based caster) and go to town on planar bound Effreti with 3 Wish spells each. BANG! +5 to all stats at level 11. Now, would any DM worth his salt allow you to do that? Of course! Do you know how much FUN it is to play to the Efreeti's malicious nature when adventurers try to force them to give wishes?

2. Polymorph Any Object specifically makes you take on the Int of the target on top of its physical stats. In fact, one of the best ways to make PAO permanent is to cast it TWICE on a creature. I'll let you figure out why because it would be fucking funny to see you actually use your brains for once in your entire beknighted life instead of regurgitating crap you heard from someone else.
So you just proved my point of 3.5 being a powergamers editions.
Have a nice day retard.
No, fuckwit. I proved you have no idea what you are talking about and your claims to "powergaming" are stupid in the extreme because they are based on false assumptions and nothing but what YOU feel is overpowered. And since it is proven conclusively you know nothing, you mouth breathing monkey, your opinion on the matter ain't worth the pixels it is expressed on.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
You don't even need to use age bonus but I've seen people use it. At levels near 20 characters can afford books that give permanent stats. Wizard players will even craft their own once they get access to Limited Wish spell. And that is all part of the core and basic rules, no need for splatbooks even.

As for Polymorph, I think you only get physical stats from creatures you turn into.
You are a fucking retard who mouth off about things you have no understanding of.

1. You need to use a Wish spell, not Limited Wish to get permanent stat gains, and you pay the XP cost every single time AND to get the +5, you have to use 5 Wish spells consecutively in one go. You cannot do 1 today and another 2 months down the line. Limited Wish doesn't allow you to create anything. And for a powergamer, waiting for level 20 to get 5 Wish spells (assuming you get an Int of 28 by then to get the bonus L9 spell) is for chumps. You want +5 to all stats by level 11? Go learn Magic circle vs Evil, Planar Binding, Dimension Anchor, a good Charisma check (use items to boost or use a Cha based caster) and go to town on planar bound Effreti with 3 Wish spells each. BANG! +5 to all stats at level 11. Now, would any DM worth his salt allow you to do that? Of course! Do you know how much FUN it is to play to the Efreeti's malicious nature when adventurers try to force them to give wishes?

2. Polymorph Any Object specifically makes you take on the Int of the target on top of its physical stats. In fact, one of the best ways to make PAO permanent is to cast it TWICE on a creature. I'll let you figure out why because it would be fucking funny to see you actually use your brains for once in your entire beknighted life instead of regurgitating crap you heard from someone else.
So you just proved my point of 3.5 being a powergamers editions.
Have a nice day retard.
No, fuckwit. I proved you have no idea what you are talking about and your claims to "powergaming" are stupid in the extreme because they are based on false assumptions and nothing but what YOU feel is overpowered. And since it is proven conclusively you know nothing, you mouth breathing monkey, your opinion on the matter ain't worth the pixels it is expressed on.
It has been proven by multiple people, you are just too blind (and probably stupid) to see it.

Anyways, this started as you bashing 5e. You have not done anything smart about that either. You cannot even defend your shitty edition.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
It has been proven by multiple people, you are just too blind (and probably stupid) to see it.

Anyways, this started as you bashing 5e. You have not done anything smart about that either. You cannot even defend your shitty edition.
Lol! Is that all you got? You might as well use "your mother" while you are at it, you flea-ridden mangy pomeranian.

Yes, yes, yes. It has been "proven" by multiple people. As I said earlier, it would be hilarious to see you use your brain for once in your benighted life rather than regurgitate the shit others have spewed. I see that I was expecting too much of you even using your brains, but then again, I suppose that is what we should have expected from someone with a rectum for a braincase.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
And you are still being an edgelord and producing 0 useful words. Disprove anything people said about 3e and prove anything you said about 5e. I am waiting. gogo kid
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom