1eyedking Interesting ideas in bad RPGs

[mondblut]

Bloodwych is a very primitive dungeon crawler that had two features that I haven't seen used since.

The first one is the ability to split up the party. IIRC your "main party" had 4 party members, which could then be detached into 4 parties of 1, 2 parties of 2 or a mix divisible by 4. Not very useful for combat situation, but very useful for scouting purposes and to see what that damn switch did in that other room.

Oh please. Realms of Arkania did that. Fate: Gates of Dawn did that. Brany Skeldaly did that (and it was even useful for combat for a change).

The second one is the conversation system. I have rarely seen such a detailed conversation system in any game. You can greet humanoids, ask them how they're feeling, ask them for advice, compliment or berate them or even trade with them. Surprisingly advanced, yet almost wasted on a game like Bloodwych.

Fate: GoD again. You could even recruit almost any NPC you encounter into party, in theory anyway.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

So? My words are true. I haven't seen it used since, because I haven't played those games you mentioned. Besides, Bloodwych did it first by 3-4 years.

If you're going to be an condescending ass who nitpicks over every little thing others say, you might as well just stop posting.

 

[Carrion]

not really. a) stolen idea from troika's temple of elemental evil, b) too long and linear without a chance to counteract blatantly obvious stuff (dwarf noble origin), c) dealing in a totally half-assed manner with supposedly mature themes (city elf stuff)

ToEE's vignettes were about 20 seconds long and were only based on your alignment, so I wouldn't count them as the same thing. I don't think DA:O's execution of the idea was particularly great either, because unfortunately all BioWare games have lengthy and linear intros full of BioWare writing, but that's not because of the idea itself but rather because BioWare can't make games in any other way.

 

[V_K]

not really. a) stolen idea from troika's temple of elemental evil, b) too long and linear without a chance to counteract blatantly obvious stuff (dwarf noble origin), c) dealing in a totally half-assed manner with supposedly mature themes (city elf stuff)

ToEE's vignettes were about 20 seconds long and were only based on your alignment, so I wouldn't count them as the same thing. I don't think DA:O's execution of the idea was particularly great either, because unfortunately all BioWare games have lengthy and linear intros full of BioWare writing, but that's not because of the idea itself but rather because BioWare can't make games in any other way.

There's also Nox, which takes the idea a whole deal further.

 

[mondblut]

So? My words are true. I haven't seen it used since, because I haven't played those games you mentioned. Besides, Bloodwych did it first by 3-4 years.

Not having played Realms of Arkania is nothing to be proud of. It's not like they were some obscure Slovak or Amiga-only title. For shame.

If you're going to be an condescending ass who nitpicks over every little thing others say, you might as well just stop posting.

On the contrary, that's the whole point of posting.

 

[SuicideBunny]

ToEE's vignettes were about 20 seconds long and were only based on your alignment, so I wouldn't count them as the same thing.

them being short is what made the whole thing much better than the monstrous but completely irrelevant later on bullshit that was in dao. not to mention that toee had 9, all of which were somewhat interconnected both with the story and each other, and dao had 6 which were mostly irrelevant. it's really just different aspects of the same idea, 'cept troika's is older and worked better. whether they are based on social background, alignment or something else is mostly a semantic difference. it's still the same core idea.

There's also Nox, which takes the idea a whole deal further.

eh, in nox they aren't opening vignettes but rather c&c and present throughout the whole game as well as basic gameplay.

 

[Matalarata]

Breath of Fire V had an interesting "survival" mechanic... The game was quite hard, you had to rely on consumables and your main character's "superpower" breathweapon. Basically you had a raising percentile counter wich gave you a time limit to finish the game, it was quite generous but each time you used your dragon power that same counter would rise quite a bit, and some encounters were brutal if takled without...

Each time you earn xp a perchentage (I think 10%) goes to a banked pool of experience, in any moment you could restart the game keeping the banked experience. That allowed you to restart the game and immediately level up your characters.
Even with a couple of level ups you were much more efficient at lower level, that snowballed as you went on, and you could reach the same almost impossible areas with more resources, rendering them easily beatable without using up your "timer".

Hard to explain if you haven't tried it but those who did understand what I mean. That game was wonderfully balanced around this mechanic, allowing much bolder exploration on subsequent playtrough...

Spoiler

Obviously it is a bad RPG since it's a JRPG

 

[tuluse]

The opening vignettes in ToEE were pretty terrible. DA:O's origins introduced you to the world and gave some room for roleplaying.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Konung - interesing setting (Scandinavian) and nations to play (Slavic, Byzantine and Viking).
Other than that it was quite enjoyable but I have no idea if it's still good because game (or should I say his DRM, some StarForce wannabe) doesn't work with modern systems so devs send some "cure" for it but they don't anymore.

Speaking about Hellgate: London - there was some kind of nasty DRM inside, some mutaiton of spying (a'la Origin) crap.

 

[V_K]

There's also Nox, which takes the idea a whole deal further.

eh, in nox they aren't opening vignettes but rather c&c and present throughout the whole game as well as basic gameplay.

That's what I meant by a whole deal further .

Back on topic, Runesword 2 was a decent toolset still without a campaign that'd do it justice. Its best (imo) part was once again its magic system, in which the resource to power spells were "runes" of various types. They were limitend in numbers and belonged not to your characters, but to the environment the party's in, and thus were shared between your guys and enemies. Provided for some really interesting tactical considerations.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Don't really remember much interesting and unique mechanics that I liked in mediocre western RPGs, jRPGs, on the other hand, had quite a few bits and pieces. For example, I liked potential of the rumors system in Persona 2, but its implementation was pretty shitty. It had a rumormonger system, where special NPC, rumormonger, would distribute rumors which you told them, and the game's world could react accordingly. In practice it usually meant the player getting some item, or that enemies would receive weakness to certain elemental attack, etc. What I really wanted to see after playing it though, it's a proper RPG in modern setting, where both quests and game world are made malleable by dispersing rumors and other (dis)information. Just think of the possibilities.

 

[Mastermind]

Meh, I found Hellgate London's combat enjoyable. I certainly didn't spend all game running backwards holding the trigger. Plus, you could be a proper summoner, which is always appreciated in an arpg.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Breath of Fire V

yeah, despite all the hate dragon quarter got from hardcore bof fans, it was a very sweet game.

 

[Night Goat]

In Star Wars: The Old Republic, getting your companions to do the crafting for you. To paraphrase one of the devs, Darth Vader doesn't make his own boots.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

In Star Wars: The Old Republic, getting your companions to do the crafting for you. To paraphrase one of the devs, Darth Vader doesn't make his own boots.

Can't say I liked that, but it's because I'm one of that weirdos who likes even mediocre crafting. What I did like in SW:TOR is the ability to send inactive companions on the missions. I would have liked to see party-based game a-la IE, where you can send your inactive party members on quests, so they wouldn't just lag behind in levels. It's more interesting then just lazy autolevelling, it could be done with Space Rangers-like (or Darklands, or King of the Dragon Pass) text quest, and if a character botches quest pretty badly it could create narrative hook, for example a bandit lord who swore to murder you, or party member getting himself kidnapped, or what have you.

 

[:Flash:]

Arcatera: The Dark Brotherhood
This is perhaps one of the most innovative games that nobody has played, because, ultimately, it's not very good. But it's full of good ideas.
It's an RPG/Adventure Hybrid, with day/night cycles and NPC schedules. That alone is pretty unique already.
Then it has a split party mechanic, which actually makes sense. You can assign tasks to the "inactive" party, which are then performed automatically, while you can do stuff that needs your attention. E.g. you can search a location in order to find things (searching a location can take several hours), or observe a location in order to intercept an NPC that tries to evade you. Or sleep, as Arcatera has requirement for sleeping, eating and drinking, all managed manually. Of course, depending on location you can get robbed or attacked during sleep.
Then it has a crime system that has the guards punish you depending on how many offenses you have committed already, including increasing gold fees and banishment from the city. The conversation system has two variables, irritation and patience, that can in turn influence the alignment of the NPC.

The World of Arcatera has a nice backstory as well, it is based on the PNP game the developers had worked on since their youth.
Man this game should have been great. If only the execution hadn't been so shoddy.

 

[V_K]

Arcatera: The Dark Brotherhood

Damn, how could I forget that?!
It was one of those games you're desperately trying to like for attempting to do all the things you want from a game, with both of you failing miserably.
The thing I liked most about it was that your character wasn't the center of the universe. Events would happen independently of whether you are there to stop or influence them, sometimes changing the way plot developed drastically.

Oh, and by the way, this one also had opening vignettes.

 

[V_K]

Oh, and speaking of buggy messes - how could we all forget Prelude to Darkness?

 

[Lhynn]

Random encounters in age of wushu, the idea is that all your non combat stats are measured to determine how the world percieves you, different npcs with different quests looking for you depending on who you are and what youve done.
This gives questing a different feeling, and doing a quest this way is a lot more fulfilling and interesting than you going around town asking people if they need anything.
Also its leveless leveling system, where you dont level the character, just level active and passive skills that dictate how powerful he will be, which can all be deactivated to have literally the character you started with.

Magnitude system on City of Heroes, the idea is that an effect has a certain magnitude and any given character has different resistance thresholds, this makes so the power of your skills is very well defined, and that even if a skill is not enough to affect someone, 2 or 3 skills with the same effect have a much bigger cumulative chance to do so, loved this system.

Far east of eden zero, tracking real time even when the game is turned off, this allows for a different gaming experience depending on the time you play the game, it also made possible timed quests in real days, etc. lots of possibilities.

In loren the amazon princess you play as the sidekick, and the game really wants you to feel like a secondary character, it was a rather interesting PoV. Not gonna make excuses, the premise intrigued me.

The jewel system from path of exile (that was probably inspired by the materia system from ff7).

Emergent gameplay in dins curse.

Bahamut laggon and its party composition system and how it affected ranged skills. simple but gave room to plenty of strategies.

The guild and the guild 2 are not RPGs but have a lot of elements of one, and a lot good and interesting ideas. Titles, politics, dynasty and real time economics.

Shin megami tensei: demon negotiation, fusion and summoning.

DAoC cc immunity system, simple but allowed for a deeper, less repetitive combat, where youd gain temporary immunity to an effect youve been subjected to. It ended up being a broken piece of shit anyway, but i liked that particular thing about it.

Uncharted waters online real time economics that were almost completely player driven, how you could fuck with other players by playing the market.


There are tons of systems i cant remember right now but that i enjoyed trying, if i remember any ill post again.

 

[Matalarata]

Another bad/mediocre strategy jrpg game from the ps2 era http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Red

Imagine FF Tactics, in an alternative history where Japan conquered the world after the defeat of Germany and Italy (my bad) after WW2, Commie vs Allies, each side pitching huge 2-4 legged mechs (walkers) against each other.
You could customize the special ammo of each mech on your team and further specialize it with infantry squads, wich where effectively part of the unit and undetatchable during battle.
Lot of different options, smokescreens, AP anti-mech rounds, rocket infantry, grenadiers, medics...

The gimmick is that during the attack phase of your turn you have to "Aim". Basically you grab your unit like in FFT, select a tile where to move and then, if elegible, you can attack at range or in melee. The action shifts from the tactical map to a 3rd person view of your mech, you start from a specific distance from your foe dependant on the range from wich you initiated the attack on the tactical map. A percentile counter rises as you get in the optimal range of your main weapon, decreasing as you or your foe move away from the sweet spot (wich is different from walker to walker). You could lose real time to wait for the counter to rise (your pilot's aim) and to move in optimal range, balancing the amount of shots you think you could fit in the 2 minutes real time combat round.
As to say: Do I take 4 shots at 65%? If I wait for the counter to reach 85% trough positioning and passive aim I'll be able to sqeeze just 2...

Lots and lots of interesting ideas... But no one thought how much time you had to waste to finish every fucking mission. Hours, literally...

TL;DR do not mix real time in a turn based game.

Edit: How could I forget. The walkers were Diesel-powered or at least that's the noise their oversized shaking engines would emit while operating

 

[mondblut]

What I did liked in SW:TOR is the ability to send inactive companions on the missions. I would have liked to see party-based game a-la IE, where you can send your inactive party members on quests, so they wouldn't just lag behind in levels. It's more interesting then just lazy autolevelling, it could be done with Space Rangers-like (or Darklands, or King of the Dragon Pass) text quest, and if a character botches quest pretty badly it could create narrative hook, for example a bandit lord who swore to murder you, or party member getting himself kidnapped, or what have you.

Speaking of interesting ideas, I loved it when you could offload spare characters to do day jobs for NPCs in Magic Candle. Got bored of a guy, leave him behind as some blacksmith's apprentice for a year. Then come back and take his honest pay off him. Owning slaves never felt as gratifying.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Another bad/mediocre strategy jrpg game from the ps2 era http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Red

Imagine FF Tactics, in an alternative history where Japan conquered the world after the defeat of Germany and Italy during WW2 , each side pitching huge 2-4 legged mechs (walkers) against each other.
You could customize the special ammo of each mech on your team and further specialize it with infantry squads, wich where effective part of the unit and undetatchable during battle.
Lot of different options, smokescreens, AP anti-mech rounds, rocket infantry, grenadiers, medics...

The gimmick is that during the attack phase of your turn you have to "Aim". Basically you grab your unit like in FFT, select a tile where to move and then, if elegible, you can attack at range or in melee. The action shifts from the tactical map to a 3rd person view of your mech, you start from a specific distance from your foe dependant on the range from wich you initiated the attack on the tactical map. A percentile counter rises as you get in the optimal range of your main weapon, decreasing as you or your foe move away from the sweet spot (wich is different from walker to walker). You could lose real time to wait for the counter to rise (your pilot's aim) and to move in optimal range, balancing the amount of shots you think you could fit in the 2 minutes real time combat round.
As to say: Do I take 4 shots at 65%? If I wait for the counter to reach 85% trough positioning and passive aim I'll be able to sqeeze just 2...

Lots and lots of interesting ideas... But no one thought how much time you had to waste to finish every fucking mission. Hours, literally...

TL;DR do not mix real time in a turn based game.

Edit: How could I forget. The walkers were Diesel-powered or at least that's the noise their oversized shaking engines would emit while operating

Ring of Red is set in the 1960s in the aftermath of World War II. According to the alternate timeline, Japan did not surrender in 1945, and the United States of America did not deploy the atomic bomb, although it was still produced and the plans stolen by the USSR. Instead, Japan was captured after a daring invasion costing many lives on both sides in Operation Downfall by the Allied Forces.[2] With the Cold War looming over the horizon, Hokkaidō was ceded to the Soviet Union and occupied as Vastokayasak, and Japan was partitioned into Communist North Japan and Democratic South Japan.

Вастокаясак. :D Wouldn't have minded to see communist Japan concept though, IRL it would probably become something like North Korea, but even more bizarre.

 

[Matalarata]

Вастокаясак.

?

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Вастокаясак.

?

> Hokkaidō was ceded to the Soviet Union and occupied as Vastokayasak
> and occupied as Vastokayasak
> Vastokayasak
Japanese pseudo-russian words are even more bizarre than their engrish.

 

[Raghar]

Actually it's not bad RPG, but from point of view of RPG game designer, I found very innovative idea in Star Ocean and Star Ocean 2. It was private actions.
If you never played Star Ocean play it. The whole idea of private actions is awesome. When you are relaxing in town, majority of characters is doing theirs stuff and you can occasionally save theirs butts, or interact with them.

Also the whole idea of creativity affecting results of crafting, and hidden/learnable traits necessary for crafting was interesting. It basically enforced person with drawing talent to do drawings, person with sculpturing talent to make sculptures...