Is HL2 innovative? DISCUSS

[Average Manatee]

Funny how popular games like Doom, System Shock, Duke3D, Quake, Unreal, and HL1 all exist and are generally agreed to be good, innovative games even on the codex. We also don't seem to get posters with a few months old join date crying they aren't loved enough.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Funny how popular games like .. System Shock

Pretty sure both System Shock games sold poorly, so I'm not sure if they were popular. System Shock 2 got cult status, and System Shock 1 has its fans but is lesser known.

 

[Average Manatee]

Funny how popular games like .. System Shock

Pretty sure both System Shock games sold poorly, so I'm not sure if they were popular. System Shock 2 got cult status, and System Shock 1 has its fans but is lesser known.

I was going by popular recognition, not sales. i.e., it's still showing up in most top-x lists because (retarded and click-bait though they may be) it's well recognized enough as a great game. Also its the reason Bioshock and stuff exists.

 

[tuluse]

Don't know if HL2 was innovative, but it surely has one of the most varied gameplays. The thing which I didn't like, was, that it made no sense in repsect to HL1. Only years later, when I read the "whole story" behind HL it made sense. Valve should have done more effort in connecting the parts. I think what lacked most in the game, was the suspense, thrill, exploring the BlackMesa chaos. HL2 just didn't feature that. It was different. But not bad. I found it good. Was it innovative? Uhm, I don't know.

But I recall a cool feature: you could give NPCs commands like "go to this position" and this allowed really cool tactical combats. Especially in the later chapters, in the house-to-house fightings you felt like a chief commander, letting your small army fight, sending them forward etc. I didn't experience that in other games.

If you like that you should give Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, and SWAT4 a play.

 

[pippin]

Don't know if HL2 was innovative, but it surely has one of the most varied gameplays. The thing which I didn't like, was, that it made no sense in repsect to HL1. Only years later, when I read the "whole story" behind HL it made sense. Valve should have done more effort in connecting the parts. I think what lacked most in the game, was the suspense, thrill, exploring the BlackMesa chaos. HL2 just didn't feature that. It was different. But not bad. I found it good. Was it innovative? Uhm, I don't know.

But I recall a cool feature: you could give NPCs commands like "go to this position" and this allowed really cool tactical combats. Especially in the later chapters, in the house-to-house fightings you felt like a chief commander, letting your small army fight, sending them forward etc. I didn't experience that in other games.

If you like that you should give Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, and SWAT4 a play.

I second Rainbow Six, but I remember Ghost Recon to be easier, the maps less complicated and not as unforgiving in general. In Rainbow Six you could blink twice and you were dead; I don't remember that happening in Ghost Recon.
Of course, this was 10+ years ago, but still.

 

[tuluse]

I second Rainbow Six, but I remember Ghost Recon to be easier, the maps less complicated and not as unforgiving in general. In Rainbow Six you could blink twice and you were dead; I don't remember that happening in Ghost Recon.
Of course, this was 10+ years ago, but still.

Ghost Recon is huge open maps, so it would be a lot more annoying to die so easy honestly.

Still, those games give you all the squad control you could ask for.

 

[octavius]

Ghost Recon was my favourite game for a few months. Played all the campaigns twice, and just couldn't get enough of it. User made content was scarce.

 

[Durandal]

Half-Life 2 had some impressive facial animations for its time, most of which outclass even modern games, thanks to motion capturing. Although Severance: Blade of Darkness used mo-cap for animating combat animations a few years back.
Half-Life 2 also popularized the use of physics in games, by shoving physics puzzles down your throat every 5 minutes in the first few chapters. Note how I said popularized, System Shock 1 (released in 1993, methinks) already used advanced physics for throwing items. Half-Life 2 just expanded on that with the Gravity Gun. Which Half-Life 2 did well (aside from the constant physics puzzles), as HL2 would be BORING gameplay-wise without the Gravity Gun. Half-Life 1 had a wider variety and better balance of guns, now imagine HL1 with the guns of HL2 and it'd play considerably more stale.
I wouldn't call Half-Life 2 "innovative", the only remotely innovative thing it did was using physics as a weapon, and I'm sure you could overcome challenges using objects and gravity in other games released before HL2. Half-Life 2 just takes Half-Life 1, applies modern graphics and physics, and makes it more story-focused.
Things I applaud HL2 for besides its excellent-graphics-at-the-time are its unique setting and art design (its like being a resistance member in WW2, except nazis are aliens now), level variety (rooftop chase, train station fights, canal escape, hovercraft chases, zombie/gravity playground, coast drive, The Floor is Lava, running at the beach at night, prison break by commanding other aliens, retaking the City, and the citadel) and sound design (chances are if you hear one of those sounds, you'll immediately recognize its from HL2).
When comparing shooters, I think FEAR 1 does some things better than HL2 (AI, gunplay, gameplay, enemy reactions, backgrounds that get destroyed to hell after every gunfight), while it does things worse than HL2 as well (generic office setting, unmemorable level design, enemy variety, story).
In the end, I think games like FEAR, Doom and Quake tend to age better than games like HL2 because the main focus in the former is placed on the gameplay. HL2 is kind of like Seinfeld, whereby everything has copied it, so the original looks unoriginal in comparison by modern standards. Stuff like "pick up that can" and "use gravity as a weapon" are pretty common to modern gamers, but a different take on shooting leagues of bad guys appeals to everyone.

 

[Sceptic]

Half-Life 2 had some impressive facial animations for its time, most of which outclass even modern games

No game does facial expressions better than Anachronox. Especially considering how blocky and low-res they are.

In the end, I think games like FEAR, Doom and Quake tend to age better than games like HL2 because the main focus in the former is placed on the gameplay. HL2 is kind of like Seinfeld, whereby everything has copied it, so the original looks unoriginal in comparison by modern standards.

Then why is Doom still good? Why is Maniac Mansion still enjoyable? Nothing got copied more than Doom, and somehow it still comes up as better and the original still plays great by modern standards.

 

[Lyric Suite]

For that matter, how does Seinfeld look "unoriginal" today? Compared to what?

 

[CyberP]

Fucking tech demo that 'tards worship. Innovative engine programmers, shitty game designers.

 

[theSavant]

I just tried out HL2:E2 to remember how it was.

Man... the guns are so crappy. You can't even aim/focus, they feel weak, half of them totally useless. It almost feels like a burden to carry them around.

Oh... so you found ammo for the pistol? ----

 

[octavius]

Then why is Doom still good?

Because you can massacre the Legions of Hell. In other games you rarely face more than a couple of enemies at a time ("think of the polygon count!"). You can even provoke in-fighting, which is great fun.
Not many games copied those things.

It's a bit similar to how Dungeon Master and Chaos Strikes Back were heavily copied, but some of the best and most unique aspects of the games weren't.

 

[Durandal]

Then why is Doom still good? Why is Maniac Mansion still enjoyable? Nothing got copied more than Doom, and somehow it still comes up as better and the original still plays great by modern standards.

Because you could put the gameplay of Doom into a game where you play as a waffle warrior shooting evil alien slimes with food-themed weapons and it would still be very fun to play. You could put the gameplay of Doom in any setting and it'd still be good.
Could you say the same thing about Half-Life 2?

 

[Sceptic]

Because you could put the gameplay of Doom into a game where you play as a waffle warrior shooting evil alien slimes with food-themed weapons and it would still be very fun to play. You could put the gameplay of Doom in any setting and it'd still be good.
Could you say the same thing about Half-Life 2?

Of course not, since HL2 isn't fun to play to begin with

I'm honestly not sure how this is supposed to help your initial statement. You were claiming that HL2's originality isn't visible because everyone copied it. Yet Doom's is still visible because its basics and premise are so awesome and the original is still fun to play no matter how much you copy them? How does this count as a plus for HL2? Your last post reads like "Doom was so good it remains good no matter how many inferior copies happen, but HL2's is only good until someone else does it better", which is completely not what you were saying earlier.

 

[Daemongar]

Cybermage is in theory a very good game, but when I tried it last year I didn't find it very playable. On my play list I've commented "Clunky controls, stupid AI".

I played Cybermage when it came out, and believe I finished it. It could have been something. However, it felt dated and old when it came out, and performance sucked. That game went almost immediately from release to the $5 bins, even being as "innovative" as it was. Good concept, bad execution. It's not enough to be the first game with the ability to ride in vehicles, it has to add something. In Cybermage, didn't exactly feel all that special. You can see a demo here, at the 7:00 mark.

HL2 is now 11 years old or so, and it's hard to put the game in perspective. I think a lot of the hoopla about HL2 is what I experienced when Doom 3 was coming out at the same time as HL2: which will "win" by being the best game? And Doom 3 sucked so bad, HL2 looked SPECTACULAR by comparison.

FPS games used limited areas before HL2. The areas in HL2 were to scale and you really felt like you were in a fucked city under martial law. It opened up the game/playing field. It cannot be undersold how much an impact walking into the city out of the train-station had on FPS games and gamers. To deny this is ignorance.

It had some jerky physics puzzles, but had destroyable environments, breakable windows, exploding cars, and you could use almost anything as a weapon thanks to the physics gun. And that gun shouldn't be undersold. Complain all one may, Ravenswood is an excellent level, and the physics gun coupled with saw blades makes it even better.

Yes, Duke Nukem had destroyable toilets, windows, and a building collapse. Yes, Cybermage had tanks. Yes, every game before it had everything HL2 did. However, HL2 did things better and raised the bar for FPS games. Doom 1, 2, 3, and Quake 1 and 2 did about everything iD knew how to do. Find key, open door, go to next level. It is mindless fun.

People bitching about HL2 fostering small "arena" size and limits? Funny, they are using the developers words and innovation against them while arguing how HL2 lacks innovation. I also saw the developers comments in game in HL2/Lost Coast, but maybe the folks complaining about innovation haven't.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Nobody is arguing that HL2 lacks "innovation". Some of us at least are arguing that innovation means shit.

 

[Durandal]

Of course not, since HL2 isn't fun to play to begin with

I'm honestly not sure how this is supposed to help your initial statement. You were claiming that HL2's originality isn't visible because everyone copied it. Yet Doom's is still visible because its basics and premise are so awesome and the original is still fun to play no matter how much you copy them? How does this count as a plus for HL2? Your last post reads like "Doom was so good it remains good no matter how many inferior copies happen, but HL2's is only good until someone else does it better", which is completely not what you were saying earlier.

If one copies Doom, they usually reskin it, add some new weapons, enemies and levels. The Doom influence is often directly visible. But (almost) each and every clone is fun to play, because while the good ol' gameplay stays essentially the same, Doom clones and 90's DOS shooters largely depended on the level design to feel fresh. Which is why we have a plethora of map pack WADs. If the gameplay is the weapon, then the body is the level design. If you are too weak to wield a weapon properly, then your Sword Of Daemonic Destruction can't live up to its fullest potential. If the level design is just repetitive linear corridors, then it doesn't matter how good your gameplay is, you WILL get bored.

The majority of modern AAA shooters, on the other hand, indirectly include elements from Half-Life 2, usually being "immersive storytelling" which nowadays means "no cutscenes, but you gotta stand here listening to this guy rambling about something". I don't even have to name any examples for you to know what I mean. Even the physics, revolutionary at the time, are now so commonplace, that it sometimes just feels forced in HL2 (especially the Hovercraft chapter, that chapter was basically "look at our awesome physics engine" when they constantly pause the hovercraft pursuit in favour of physics puzzles).
Part of the reason why HL2 got so popular is because it did alot of cool things at the time. When you have played alot modern games and go back to HL2, it feels incredibly barebones in comparison. Even HL1 would feel more refreshing to a modern gamer, partly because its level design is simply more engaging than HL2. Sure, HL2 had great levels like Ravenholm and the Coastal drive, but it was also one of the first game to start the "conveniently placed explosive red barrels" fad. Don't think, just shoot the red barrels and you know someone will die. Less thought is put into what weapon you should equip, which enemy to focus on, and where to move next, but instead you blow up as many enemies as possible by shooting explosive barrels that just happen to be behind the enemy. It's lazy level design. Even Doom has explosive barrels, but not to the extent of HL2. Level design can carry even the oldest games, but nowadays level design means , so we're left with linear cinematic experiences which the casual forgets about after a year, only to be featured again in the Doritos 'n Mountain Dew GOTY Awards.

Doom stands the test of time due to its near-flawless game design and level design. HL2 did alot of cool things, but since all those cool things don't look so cool today because everyone already did them, you are left with a generic FPS who is only saved from total mediocrity by the Gravity Gun, storytelling (when it doesn't put you in unskippable cutscene segments), sound design, and art/enviroment design. All of which aren't necessarily aspects of a game that add replay value.

 

[Lyric Suite]

That's a very long winded way of saying that older shooters were based on good design, and you can't copy good design, you have to make good design for yourself. But you can easily copy a gimmick and Half Life 2 is basically just an assorted bag of gimmicks hidden behind a pretty presentation. That's a fair argument but out of the top of my head i can't think of any modern shooter that did any of those gimmicks better than Half life 2. But then i don't play modern shooters so its not like i would know. Maybe you can cite examples of games that have rendered Half Life 2 obsolete. Bioshock maybe? Do you have physics puzzles there?

 

[Durandal]

There is a Telekinesis Plasmid in Bioshock which lets you pick up items using not-magic and throw them at your enemies, like barrels, missiles, and other stuff that hurts. It is required at some point to throw back a grenade at some grenade-throwing douchebag on a balcony to proceed or something. Bioshock didn't really go into puzzle territory with its physics or plasmids for that matter. It was mostly "shoot fire at ice to melt ice to proceed", "shoot electricity at broken switches to open doors" to proceed, and I can't really recall anything else. There are also those water/oil puddles you can use to electrocute/burn the enemy if they are too dumb to step in it, but like most games where you can electrify people in water, the enemy rarely steps in water, so the level designers place enemies in water beforehand.

There was a Telekinesis spell in Dark Messiah for that matter, which let you pick up heavier objects with your mind which you couldn't pick up normally. This spell doesn't feel like a gimmick unlike in Bioshock and HL2, because it meshed together better with the "use your enviroment to your advantage" mentality of Dark Messiah, whereas you'd only use the Gravity Gun in HL2 past Ravenholm for puzzles and throwing exploding barrels. In Bioshock, Telekinesis was only useful against those Big Daddies that fired missiles at you, because unlike in Dark Messiah, just shooting your way out was more effective. Dark Messiah wanted you to play it smart instead of just combating your way through, which included throwing barrels at your enemies like Donkey Kong, kicking enemies off ledges, causing enemies to slip on patches of ice and fall, and using fire to your advantage.
Dark Messiah does have some breakable supports, that once broken, unleashes a trap guaranteed to kill someone, but unlike HL2 these "traps" are more logical (except for those conspicuously placed spiked racks) like a support causing a wall to break down or causing a chandelier to fly hither and forth, whereas in HL2 the explosive barrels were just there, like the spiked racks.
Dark Messiah does do a better job of incorporating physics in combat than HL2, IMO. It even uses the same engine as HL2.

I do recall the Doom 3 expansion having some kind of not!Gravity Gun called the Grabber or something, which let you hold the fireballs of Imps and throw them back. I haven't played it, but knowing my time from Doom 3 there's probably some physics puzzles there too. Titanfall had some similar power too, I think.

 

[octavius]

FPS games used limited areas before HL2. The areas in HL2 were to scale and you really felt like you were in a fucked city under martial law. It opened up the game/playing field. It cannot be undersold how much an impact walking into the city out of the train-station had on FPS games and gamers. To deny this is ignorance.

Sorry, but I had already experienced leaving the prison ship in Unreal, so walking out of the train station in HL2didn't have that much impact.
Also, in Unreal there was action soon after starting exploring the planet, while in HL2 it took ages of walking around before something happened. So the start of HL2 could have been great if it didn't feel like one giant interactive cutscene.

 

[prodigydancer]

innovation means shit.

Activision Brofists this.

 

[tuluse]

FPS games used limited areas before HL2. The areas in HL2 were to scale and you really felt like you were in a fucked city under martial law. It opened up the game/playing field. It cannot be undersold how much an impact walking into the city out of the train-station had on FPS games and gamers. To deny this is ignorance.

Thief 1/2, Deus Ex. Not only did they full scale buildings, but let you actually explore while HL2 was on rails.

It had some jerky physics puzzles, but had destroyable environments, breakable windows, exploding cars, and you could use almost anything as a weapon thanks to the physics gun. And that gun shouldn't be undersold. Complain all one may, Ravenswood is an excellent level, and the physics gun coupled with saw blades makes it even better.

I'm pretty sure every broken window was a completed scripted event. You could not shoot out windows as the player. Something that Goldeneye on the Nintendo 64 did let you do.

Yes, Duke Nukem had destroyable toilets, windows, and a building collapse. Yes, Cybermage had tanks. Yes, every game before it had everything HL2 did. However, HL2 did things better and raised the bar for FPS games. Doom 1, 2, 3, and Quake 1 and 2 did about everything iD knew how to do. Find key, open door, go to next level. It is mindless fun.

Polish != innovation.

People bitching about HL2 fostering small "arena" size and limits? Funny, they are using the developers words and innovation against them while arguing how HL2 lacks innovation. I also saw the developers comments in game in HL2/Lost Coast, but maybe the folks complaining about innovation haven't.

Because it was the same level design principals as many shooters. All the Serious Sam games, Painkiller, this little game called Half-Life 1. Of course HL1 had more interesting arenas.

 

[Daemongar]

FPS games used limited areas before HL2. The areas in HL2 were to scale and you really felt like you were in a fucked city under martial law. It opened up the game/playing field. It cannot be undersold how much an impact walking into the city out of the train-station had on FPS games and gamers. To deny this is ignorance.

Sorry, but I had already experienced leaving the prison ship in Unreal, so walking out of the train station in HL2didn't have that much impact.

Yeah, as someone who also played Unreal, the comparison isn't even close

vs.

Also, in Unreal there was action soon after starting exploring the planet, while in HL2 it took ages of walking around before something happened. So the start of HL2 could have been great if it didn't feel like one giant interactive cutscene.

They introduced the entire premise of the story, the invasion, all that stuff without having to say explicitly what was going on. Unreal has a manual and spells it out for you. Even you must remember that games before Half-Life 2 pretty much had a manual that told you the background. Even Doom did. HL2, again was different. Unreal has this in their manual, which players are expected to read. Is it better that HL2 acts it out? Discuss!

Spoiler

This is the best part: the anticipation. Slowly, laboriously, but insistently,
you ascend toward the boundless turquoise sky. As the struggling
coaster reaches the peak of the hill, you raise your hands above your
head in defiance of your frantically pounding heart. Time, and the
entire world, stands still for a moment. And then…
Wooosh! Toward the ground you plummet, the sky you faced a
moment ago now at your back. The coaster trembles as it races
downward and the air fills with the delighted screams of those
around you. You close your eyes and drink in the feeling of pure,
rapturous freedom that engulfs you.
Crash! Your eyes snap open as you are pitched violently from your bed
onto the cold metal floor of your cell. The ship is trembling and the air
is filled with the screams and shouts of the prisoners in the cells
around you. As you gather your senses, you quickly remember where
you really are. The Vortex Rikers. The rankest prison transport vessel
this side of the Milky Way, and the furthest thing in the universe from
the freedom in your dreams.
But somethings not right. Emergency lights are flashing on and off in
the walkway beyond your cell. A sulfurous, burning odor invades your
nostrils and stings your eyes. You pick yourself up off the ground,
holding onto the iron bed frame for balance as the floor shudders
beneath you. Looking through the plasma-gated entryway of your
cell, you see guards and officials running up and down the walkway
like frantic worker ants.
“Hey, what the hell’s going on!?” you shout.
But your voice is lost among the shouts of your fellow prisoners and
the wailing of the ship’s alert siren. The ants tripping over each other
in the walkway don’t even glance at you.
NC114-85EKLS
...

Not pissing on Unreal, which was innovative in its own way.

 

[Daemongar]

Polish != innovation.

No, but raising the bar for an industry does equal innovation. If innovation means purely creating something brand new, well, then no FPS game is innovative but Wolfenstien 3D. I played HL2 and it brought so many improved features together it's easy to isolate any one aspect (as you and others do) and say "they ripped off such and such a game." It's done all the time. Taking an idea and making it better is innovation, it doesn't have to be creating things whole-cloth.

Doom 3 went closed areas, tight spaces, jump scares, shitty flashlight, and darkness. It opens up at the end, but at the time, most computers couldn't even run the final boss area. HL2 kept the game open and feeling like an open world, a FPS in the real world with blue skies and people struggling to survive. I'm glad HL2 won, otherwise FPS would be held back by the tropes of Doom 3.