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Is save scumming objectively bad ?

Talby

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I used to, but I found it's much more enjoyable to just roll with it and live with your mistakes. In the long run you screw yourself over by save scumming as well, as many games will become too easy if you correct every mistake.
 
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Norfleet

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I remember constantly save-scumming during my playthrough of New Vegas. Not due to any difficulty from the game, but because I was constantly worried I'd run into some bug that'd basically ruin any progress I had made.
Frequent saving isn't save-scumming, that's just precautionary. Save-scumming is the practice of reloading those saves.

I used to, but I found it's much more enjoyable to just roll with it and live with your mistakes. In the long run you screw yourself over by save scumming as well, as many games will become to easy if you correct every mistake.
Well, it's one thing to be using it purely to correct mistakes. On the other hand, correcting mistakes can be a form of gameplay in itself. After all, it's a given that you can beat the game, games these days are easy: Solving it as a perfect run, on the other hand, is more interesting. I actually find this more interesting when the mechanism of failure is NOT the RNG, but simply because you want to replay a particular sequence until you master it perfectly.

On the flipside, there's the game where your outcome is decidedly PURELY by RNG: There's no "mistake" for you to make, you get a bad outcome purely because due to unpreventable randomness. This is common in the unpassable dialogue check: You can max out every stat and skill that will influence that check, and it's still entirely RNG whether you succeed or not. Failure, of course, locks out a specific path of the game. Sure, there might be alternative, probably more violent, solutions around it, or perhaps the entire thing was optional to begin with, but you're essentially going to miss part of the game purely at random, and not everyone is really keen on replaying what is otherwise a largely linear game merely to catch one piece of missing content. Frankly, this isn't really good design, but you play the games you have, not the games you want.
 

J_C

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Those fuckers who save scumm all the time whenever something sub-optimal result happens should go play Dragon Age, where they have an Awesome button which solves every problem. Seriously, if you reload everytime if you fail a check, or don't get the best loot, why do you even play cRPGs? Play an action game, where you don't have to make skill checks.
You can max out every stat and skill that will influence that check, and it's still entirely RNG whether you succeed or not.
Which game does that? Because I can't recall something like that ever.
 

Gozma

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It's equivalent to opening up a dev console and changing shit
 

Johannes

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Yes, allowing for players to backtrack their actions without consequences either trivialises any challenge the game offers or allows them to simply brute force their way forward slowly with RNG which is equally unfun. If RNG is the only causation for failure that's just shitty game mechanics or you need to l2p to stack the odds in your favour.

Permadeath may be excessive in long games such as ADOM but works well in shorter ones such as FTL. I personally prefer save hubs so that longterm progress can be preserved while failure is nearly as punishing by forcing the player to redo a section.
ADOM isn't a long game, you can finish it in an evening.
 

DragoFireheart

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If I die I will obviously reload my last save.

I find that save scumming to manipulate the RNG takes the fun out of the game because of how monotonous it can be: I'd rather just work within the bounds of the game and overcome whatever challenge there is.
 
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taxalot

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"Hi ! I am having fun save scumming, should I change it ? Please tell me how to have fun."

Seriously, what the fuck. Savescum if you want. Don't if you don't want to. That's about it. Use fucking cheats and trainers for all I care. Nobody gives a shit about how you play the game. I play my games on the hardest difficulty level until I am fed up one night and just want to move forward without caring and turn on god mode until I think it's boring. I play however the fuck I want. This is what real men do.
 

Icewater

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From a player perspective, there's nothing wrong with save-scumming; like taxalot said, go ahead and save-scum if that's fun to you. From a developer standpoint, though, any mechanic that encourages save-scumming is a shitty mechanic.
 

TripJack

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yes savescumming is objectively bad i have it on good authority that hitler was a savescummer dont be like hitler bro
 

bloodlover

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I admit doing it all the time. I only feel ashamed when I do it in HOMM 3 though.
 

Machocruz

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I've been tempted to use a save script for Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, to do the awesome shit I suck too much to get to.
 

sser

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LOL you fucking faggot of course save

Save scumming is okay sometimes but objectively speaking is a little more difficult to


Well, I'd argue that save scumming is a feature of some games

How can you scum with no save? Play roguelikes you scrub

I dunno, sometimes. Maybe.
 

Grimwulf

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I only play "Iron Man" in games that allow it, except for maybe Wizardry series. Perma-death in such insanely long RPGs doesn't quite work for me and autosave function didn't work even in Wiz8. Maybe it's fixed now, who knows. Savescumming is for kids.

Actually, sacescumming in more complex RP-wise RPGs like Fallout series, Baldurs Gate and, among most recent, Wasteland 2 - it's just pure waste of time. Seriously, grow some balls or jut watch LP's, what's the fucking difference? These are games, where your choices should AFFECT your story, where you should really think before taking risks. Imagine yourself playing with GM.
- You approach the locked door. Wht do you do?
- I pick the lock.
- Yo didn't check for traps and blowed yorself up.
- Okay. I check for traps.
- Err, you... Fuck. ok. It's trapped. Your skill is too low to disarm it, you only have 3,5% chance of succes.
- I disarm it. Just reload until I disarm it.
- The, err, city guards see you breaking into the house.
- I lie until success. Or fight them until I kill all guards in the city. No, in the kingdom. No, I want to kill all humanity. Oh, and without a single hp lost. Just, you know, throw the dice for me and call me when it happens. I'm a savescumma, I don't give a shit.

Autosave before a mission / on new location / every 60 minutes - dat's the only savegames I aknowledge. Ideally it should be "save and exit" type of game, when appropriate. And savescumming in roguelikes is outright pathetic.

I confess a bad habit of savescumming in D&D on level-ups, coz I'm afraid of low hit dice. It is wrong, but I did it. Sob.
 

Norfleet

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Which game does that? Because I can't recall something like that ever.
The most recent one I recall is WL2, where you can still fail checks that lead to entire areas of the game with 10 skill, the maximum possible.

Autosave before a mission / on new location / every 60 minutes - dat's the only savegames I aknowledge. Ideally it should be "save and exit" type of game, when appropriate. And savescumming in roguelikes is outright pathetic.
Having to exit every time you save is just annoying, particularly when the dominant reason to save is to protect yourself from the game going KABOOM. It was annoying as fuck in Diablo 2, for instance, where there isn't any save scumming, but you still had to QUIT THE MATCH just to save, which you usually did after you found a shiny thing, in case the game decided to BOOT YOU AND LOSE YOUR STUFF.

I confess a bad habit of savescumming in D&D on level-ups, coz I'm afraid of low hit dice. It is wrong, but I did it. Sob.
Yeah, that's why when I played these games (tabletop), we typically abandoned that terrible mechanic where you can gimp your character for life purely at random in favor of a house rule of rerolling your entire HP pool at level up, and if the new roll was better than the what you had, you got that as your new HP total, and if it wasn't, you got +1 HP. This kept you from being screwed for life on a bad level-up roll, which for years, kept me playing only thieves (yes, they were thieves back then) and wizards, because d6 and d4 were the dices that I could control.

I find that save scumming to manipulate the RNG takes the fun out of the game because of how monotonous it can be: I'd rather just work within the bounds of the game and overcome whatever challenge there is.
If that option exists. Sometimes it just DOESN'T. Take the EVN Polaris string: Which path occurs is decided ENTIRELY AT RANDOM, and if you don't reload, you will get roped into an inferior path through absolutely no fault of your own. Your choices at that point essentially involve restarting the game or reloading. There isn't any way to overcome this "within the bounds of game". You get screwed out an entire tech branch purely at random.
 

Baron Dupek

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It's option that used wise make game somewhat better.
Who am I kidding, nobody use things wise.
 

mondblut

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Recently I've noticed most games are avoiding the save scumming path. From non-stop ones like Crusader Kings...and King of Dragon Pass which incentives you to accept failures and go on like a man

LOLWUT? When it comes to heroquests, KoDP is, like, savescumming central.

Ditto with CK. If the game thinks it can troll me for lulz, think again, lest I will troll you for lulz.
 

mondblut

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Generally I prefer games that don't encourage save scumming. Old turn based blobbers like Bard's Tale, Wizardry and some of the Might&Magic games were great in that regard, since you could play them 99 % Iron Man, and not even party death meant Game Over.

Don't encourage? Their very manuals expressly advice to "save early, save often, save whenever you expect something bad to happen, save whenever something good has happened". If this isn't explicit encouragement, I don't know what is.

...and I like it that way :lol:
 

Lord Azlan

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The worst case of saving I went through was in Risen. I did enjoy it in the end - but found myself saving a game MID COMBAT - I just can't remember doing anything like that before or since. Stopped me from purchasing Risen 2 when it was a couple of pence during recent Steam Sale.

Now, I used to think Fallout 3 was better than New Vegas - but since you guys rate it so much I did a recent run through of both games - and I must say NV is a lot better. A LOT BETTER. Maybe I was blind and have my eyes opened now - I don't know.

I liked that in NV your skills had to be at a certain level for certain actions - the game even tells you what they were. Basically I would play NV without saving at all. That is pretty remarkable. So - apart from combat - maybe if all the other things are not chance based - but done by skill requirement, you would get less save scumming.

That way you could leave things and come back - rather than save and reload time and time again. Trying to open a lock or chest when you only have 13% chance of it working. Spending half an hour trying to open a piddling chest with 5 gold pieces - we all have done something similar.

The other thing I see every now and again said about certain games is "SAVE OFTEN". Sometimes that is down to bugs and crashes that can wipe away hours of gaming in one go - we have all been there.

I suppose once you get skilled at a game and can recognise dangerous moments better you will save less. Other saving moments for me relate to design choice. Currently going through Wiz 8 - I realised yesterday some of the battles were taking a very long time - even with faster combat modded. Excuse my noobness but last night I explored the area between the Monastry and Arnika and came across some empty building against the side of the mountain. I was fighting about 14 bandits and 14 giant ants or whether - could have been slaughtered. I found a narrow path behind the building - but it was open at both ends. So I would set myself up at one end and waited for the enemies to come to me a few at a time - there was a bottleneck. Time was ticking. I noted then that some of the npcs bloody went around the building to attack me from the other end - must have taken them 3-4 turns to get behind me. The battle was damn amazing - constantly right on the edge.

Wiz 8 don't allow you to save mid battle - but once it was over -did I save the game asap - you betcha.
 

Grimwulf

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Having to exit every time you save is just annoying, particularly when the dominant reason to save is to protect yourself from the game going KABOOM. It was annoying as fuck in Diablo 2, for instance, where there isn't any save scumming, but you still had to QUIT THE MATCH just to save, which you usually did after you found a shiny thing, in case the game decided to BOOT YOU AND LOSE YOUR STUFF.
What? Name me a single game that does that stuff. You can't. Because EVERY game designed around "no-save" function actually autosaves your progress on a constant basis. If you get a crash during Mount&Blade no-save mod, you can rest assured - the game will return you just in the place you were before crashing. The same principle goes for roguelikes. I play Stone Soup and ADOM without worrying about shit - even if they crash or my laptop goes retard, these games won't throw me back an inch. Same goes for Diablo 2. You don't have to QUIT TO SAVE, unless you want to savescum. Maybe by "quit the match" you meant battle.net servers, but then it's online gaming we are talking about, I don't think it belongs to savescumming discussion.

Yeah, that's why when I played these games (tabletop), we typically abandoned that terrible mechanic where you can gimp your character for life purely at random in favor of a house rule of rerolling your entire HP pool at level up, and if the new roll was better than the what you had, you got that as your new HP total, and if it wasn't, you got +1 HP. This kept you from being screwed for life on a bad level-up roll, which for years, kept me playing only thieves (yes, they were thieves back then) and wizards, because d6 and d4 were the dices that I could control.
That is... original. So you basically didn't need a fighter in party at all, since he'll never get to buff up hp. I prefer the latest D&D mechanics, when you just get max hp possible for your class/constitution without any rolls and rerolls.

The other thing I see every now and again said about certain games is "SAVE OFTEN". Sometimes that is down to bugs and crashes that can wipe away hours of gaming in one go - we have all been there
Saving often if one thing, savescumming is another. There is a certain fight in Jagged Alliance 1.13 mod, widely known as "Drassen Counterattack". People often name this battle as the reason they don't play "Iron Man". JA2 isn't the most stable game ever and this battle is about 2 hours long, sometimes longer. When I played it at "Iron Man", that bitch crashed two times in a row nearly at the end. Not to say it's one of the HARDEST fucking battles in whole game, if not THE hardest.

I still prefer "Iron Man", but totally understand people who use saving as bug-insurance. But you, sir:
- save mid-fight in Risen 1, which isn't even hard combat-wise (just get those training skills, dammit or shoot tough mobs from afar)
- think that 13% of success in picking locks is reason enough for savescumming (spoiler: it's reason enough not to fucking risk it at all)
- think that combat in Wiz8 is balanced and fun. Which is not related to that thread at all, but come on. You can finish Wiz8 with Faery Bishop solo and only have troubles during first hour or two.

Spending half an hour trying to open a piddling chest with 5 gold pieces - we all have done something similar
Yes. In fucking Fallout 1, when we were young and stupid. That was EXACTLY what ruined my first playthrough and overall impression of the game. I don't remember doing that shit even once since then in other way than curiosity. "I know I'll skip that chest and won't be able to return to that location, but I wanna know what's in it, so I savescum until success, look inside, and then reload and go my way". I think I did it in Might&Magic.

My younger brother is the worst savescummer in history of gaming. He actually managed to steal Every Single Item from Every Single NPC in Fallout 2. When he was stealing used syringes from whores in New Reno, I asked him:"What kind of retarteded man is wasting so much time on savescumming for the sake of empty used syringes?". He told me this:"I know it's stupid. But the game allows it. I've got 31% chance of stealing used syringe from a whore, I am allowed to save and reload at any time. So... I am kind of supposed to do it, I guess. The game suggests that behavior, gives an option to act like that. And I can't miss an opportunity, can I?"

I treat video games like tabletops. And my brotha steals used syringes from whores. Sigh.
 

baturinsky

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I hate when game force you to savescum, like some early Sierra games did (namely, Space Quest 1, where you had to get money by savescumming slot machine)
 
Unwanted

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No, save scumming is not objectively bad and has it's merits, though I hate when it is an option and I'd prefer if some designers didn't struggle with the concept of a good well-structured challenge.

in deus ex its practically a legitimate mechanic

Lol. You're just poo. Deus Ex is piss easy.
 

Grimwulf

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I hate when game force you to savescum, like some early Sierra games did (namely, Space Quest 1, where you had to get money by savescumming slot machine)
But can you even savescum in adventure games? Especially those with "kill the player just for lulz" thing? I don't think so.

Also, just remembered a funny thing in Konung 1. There is an item called, err, "bronze warlock mirror"? (медное зеркало колдуна in original game). So, dig this: you only get a couple of those during the game, they are used to reveal burried treasure. The game was DESIGNED the way you have to use the item, look where the treasures are (no other way of finding that), then reload the game (so you can save the mirror for other locations), and use your shovel on the places you just saw. It's just pervert!
 

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