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Mustawd

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It's this type of focus (I must grind hundreds of hours to get to the good stuff) which killed MMOs for me. Instead of just enjoying the world, the quests, etc. As long as you're playing a good game, that IS the good stuff.

EDIT: Thanks for all of those who mentioned Wurm Online. I'll chekc it out. I had been debating jumping back into MMOs and was wondering if private UO servers were up as well as looking at Vanilla WoW.
 
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It's this type of focus (I must grind hundreds of hours to get to the good stuff) which killed MMOs for me. Instead of just enjoying the world, the quests, etc. As long as you're playing a good game, that IS the good stuff.

EDIT: Thanks for all of those who mentioned Wurm Online. I'll chekc it out. I had been debating jumping back into MMOs and was wondering if private UO servers were up as well as looking at Vanilla WoW.
Beware: It's indeed grindy. Bare in mind, I don't hate gamers who don't like Wurm Online. They have legitimate reasons. Grind is the biggest reason. Even if you like Wurm Online, you'll feel the grind at times. And they might not like crafting. You'll craft probably 70% of the time. There's also a lot of exploring and moving around in Wurm Online. There's not a lot of "hand holding" features. The game has added some hand holding over the years, but it still retains much of its original self. One of the things it has added recently are tents. You can instantly teleport to them after you die. You also have a few other new player benefits in the first 24 hours. They've also added an in-game map, but it doesn't have a tracker, so it won't show you where you're on the map.

Good luck, if you decide to try. I can't tell you enough this MMO is YEARS. You WON'T gain max level EVER. The closer you get to max skill the slower you gain. So very very very few players have anything close to 99. It doesn't even have levels. It uses skills, like Ultima Online, except there's no cap on how many skills can reach 100.

You can do combat, but it's not really about combat. Many players don't even traiin it. I've played for years and my fighting is only 21. I've played the entire time on Chaos, a PvP server. Even though I've had several homes raided and let most of my homes decay, the fact is I've only been killed by other players less than 5 times in over 3 years in about 58 days of /playtime.

If you play on PvP servers, be prepared to be killed or looted. Don't go into it expecting safety. I already stated it, but you can play on Freedom PvE servers (Xanadu is hte newest and biggest) and travel to/from Chaos for PvP.
 
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Mustawd

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One of my characters in UO was a blacksmith/miner. I spent hours mining ore, packing it into a horse, and forging ingots. Rinse and repeat with selling in-between (through ICQ with a list of regular customers of course). I had a blast with it.

I think I'll be ok with the grind.
 
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One of my characters in UO was a blacksmith/miner. I spent hours mining ore, packing it into a horse, and forging ingots. Rinse and repeat with selling in-between (through ICQ with a list of regular customers of course). I had a blast with it.

I think I'll be ok with the grind.
It's a lot like that. I think Wurm Online has MORE crafting than UO, however. UO had a lot of combat and dungeons. Wurm Online does have animals/monsters/sea-creatures which will attack you. Some of them spawn in the mines (or old abandoned mines). But it's all (mostly) random and somewhat player-driven. It's not as organized as it was in UO.

Just expect more crafting and a world much more player-made and random-ish. It's not as much of an RPG as UO. Wurm Online might even have less hand holding than UO because UO had a minimap and recall/mark and maybe few other things. That's why I say it's not exactly UO 2, but depending on what you liked in UO, it can be UO 2.
 
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a punishing sandbox world like nothing I had ever seen before
On the other hand, there are practically no reasons for larger groups of players to plan and create actual cities, and you can't even make diagonal walls or sit on chairs.
Are you arguing semantics? Like most of hte settlements in Wurm Online have walls, but most cities in RL don't? Or most cities in RL are vast areas of inner city and surbuban neighborhoods, whereas Wurm Online settlements are concentrated?

If semantics don't matter then on the PvE servers, cities look more like cities, mostly because nobody has to defend against other players, so they don't have to do weird things to make raiding harder. There're plenty of reasons for players to work together on the PvE servers, and most (or all) of these apply to the PvP servers too:
1) Protection against monsters (two or more swords is better than one)
2) Get things done faster if you work with someone else
3) Social... some people just want to be with other people, talk to them and be part of a community
4) Sharing of resources like silver (currency) or responsibilities (like repairing or recruiting or something)
5) if one of hte players is high skilled they'll imp your junk and make you uber

On the PvP servers the urge to be with others in a settlement is much more about defense from raiders. There's all manners of tricks to make your settlement more protected. This protects against thieves too. Cities do look more alien in PvP.

There's a lot I could say about all this. It's way too much for a single post. All I'm goint to say is I was part of a group of players who were building what was very mcuh like a village. It wasn't even a deed. It was just a lot of new players building homes near each other. Eventually we had to abandon it because we were being raided and attacked. They ended up abandoning the deed which was nearby (it looked like a castle) because it was being raided too. This is why I say "cities" are weird in PvP. If you want to make an unprotected village which is organic and similar to real villages then PvE servers are better for that.

You have to understand there're massive numbers of players in Wurm Online who join together in settlements. So that's why I'm confused by your statement. You must mean the structure of the city or little details. Or maybe you do some hand waving. Maybe it's something to do with the economy or something you leanred in school.

EDIT: Regarding economy, trading via boats is a big thing. Some players use the new mail system for smaller orders, but I think boats are still the mainstay of trading. As far as settlements go, players trade what they make with each other. The deed owner can give permissions members, thus enforcing a kind of law system. There's still a lot of trust involved. Like if you drop some items onto the ground, do you trust the other person won't steal them? If you lock them in a container, the other person will have to break the law to steal them. I think that causes the guards to attack and also is essentially illegal on PvE servers. But generally you don't drop stuff in a locked container because you trust the other people in your settlement--if items go missing, you'll know who to suspect anyway. Most players aren't dumb enough to just randomly steal stuff which isn't locked.
 
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Settlements? Real PvE? I'm at full chub right now.
Maybe you'd be interested in this:
http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/72615-really-no-stealing-on-pve/
http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Stealing

You can't just steal things on PvE servers. It has to be on undeeded land and not locked or in a player corpse. HOWEVER, if you're part of a deed with public pickup permissions (many members have it) then other members CAN steal anything you don't lock. Usually that isn't a problem because people treat each other respectfully when it's easier to identify them.

Here's a newer post detailing what's on test regarding deed permissions for picking up:
http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/129630-testing-new-permissions-system/

This covers all permissions--I think--on live servers:
http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Permissions

To get the same level of stealing and PvP we had in UO you have to go to a PvP server in WO.
 
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Mustawd

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To get the same level of stealing and PvP we had in UO you have to go to a PvP server in WO.


That's too bad. I always liked the way UO separated Trammel and Felucia. Liked that you had the option of living dangerously as a crafter/merchant in the PvP world or not. It's all good though. I was never much of a power gamer, but thought the whole red player thing was kind of cool. I mean the fact that it existed was interesting and made the world seem that much more real. But to be honest I mostly stuck to Trammel as my crafter. Even with my Fencer, I never really power gamed that much. So PvE is more than enough for me.

Thanks a ton for the links.
 
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To get the same level of stealing and PvP we had in UO you have to go to a PvP server in WO.


That's too bad. I always liked the way UO separated Trammel and Felucia. Liked that you had the option of living dangerously as a crafter/merchant in the PvP world or not. It's all good though. I was never much of a power gamer, but thought the whole red player thing was kind of cool. I mean the fact that it existed was interesting and made the world seem that much more real. But to be honest I mostly stuck to Trammel as my crafter. Even with my Fencer, I never really power gamed that much. So PvE is more than enough for me.
Thanks a ton for the links.
Hmm you might be confused.

You can travel between the PvE servers and the PvP server Chaos. Chaos is the oldest PvP server. It has slower experience gain than Epic PvP servers. You can make a teleporter to travel to Epic from anywhere. But you can't take any stats/skills/items to/from Epic. Chaos is the only PvP server you can travel to and from without any restrictions, as long as you got a boat.

So you can start on PvE server and build up your character and items and then when you're confident travel to Chaos and cause chaos. When you're done satisfying your thirst for blood you can go back to PvE.

The PvE servers are collectively called Freedom. Chaos is also a Freedom server, but it's PvP. All of them can be accessed by boat, but you sometimes have to cross a couple server maps to get somewhere.

Chaos, for example, is connected to Deliverance on its east side. Deliverance, in turn, is connected to Xanadu on its east side. So you can travel west from Xanadu to Deliverance and west to Chaos and reverse and go back to Xanadu, if desired

General server map information: http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Astronomy_and_geography

It looks like this:
freedom.png

The above image just illustrates the travel routes for ships. It's not an actual map. The servers exist separately. For example, on the above map Xanadu is connected to the east side of Celebration. You might think you have to travle north east to get to Xanadu from Celebration, but in fact you only have to travle east to the map edge. Once you hit the edge, you're teleported to the west side of Xanadu. If you were on the north side of Celebration when you crossed, you'll be on the norhtwestern side of Xanadu.
 
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Mustawd

Guest
Ahh, yeah I was probably confused. Makes sense how you explained it.

I'll be hitting the forums to get some more info. Thanks again. This looks tailored made for me tbh.
 

zeitgeist

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You have to understand there're massive numbers of players in Wurm Online who join together in settlements. So that's why I'm confused by your statement. You must mean the structure of the city or little details. Or maybe you do some hand waving. Maybe it's something to do with the economy or something you leanred in school.

I mean a functional city with a layout that makes sense in terms of various aspects of human (character) existence, from daily life to higher aspirations, that are simulated in the game on all possible scales. There are many design features that could have been implemented that would encourage this, from profession interdependencies to certain needs that have to be satisfied etc. You know, the general principles that led people to build cities in real life.

But as you've said, in PvE people simply roleplay building a city (and even then, could you provide screenshots or videos of these "cities" and the inhabitant count? I've never seen anything that was more than a village with a mansion/fortress or two or a half-finished ghost town with a population so sparse that you could stand in it for a week and never see two people enter the same building at the same time), and in PvP, it's just a bunch of borderline exploits slapped onto one another.
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
The genre's not dead, but it IS in decline. The 2011-2015 period is referred to as "the MMO sunset" by some because lots of highly visible closures have occurred, including the closure of Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, Warhammer Online, Vanguard, and many others. Blizzard and CCP Games, developers of World of Warcraft and EVE Online and arguably developers of the overall most successful two MMOs in history, each canceled the big MMO projects they'd been developing for years (Titan and World of Darkness, respectively).

Many other cancellations and failures of varying scope have occurred, and while that is par for the course in the industry, the proportion of cancellations and failures has been on a sharp upswing—until recently, but the dropoff in cancellations and failures is the sole result of the number of new MMOs being developed falling off a cliff.

As for the rest, almost every MMO other than WoW and EVE Online has some sort of pay-for-perks or even free-to-play system, and these range from somewhat fair to ridiculously exploitative. I gather that even WoW might be ramping up its pay-for-"convenience" features. A lot of previously subscription MMOs have "gone free-to-play" in the 2010s.

WoW's subscriber numbers are genuinely and irreversibly falling now, although it still has many millions of players. EVE Online's player base had actually been steadily increasing for over a decade (a feat unparalleled by any other game in history, as far as I know), yet in 2014-2015, even EVE's subscribers have been steadily declining.

For me, that's the real gut-punch: EVE's subscriber numbers falling. It's the sort of thing that, although inevitable, is shocking and surreal to actually see—like when old Gran Gran, who's been amazingly healthy for decades despite her age, has a fall and then her health rapidly declines.
 
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You have to understand there're massive numbers of players in Wurm Online who join together in settlements. So that's why I'm confused by your statement. You must mean the structure of the city or little details. Or maybe you do some hand waving. Maybe it's something to do with the economy or something you leanred in school.

I mean a functional city with a layout that makes sense in terms of various aspects of human (character) existence, from daily life to higher aspirations, that are simulated in the game on all possible scales. There are many design features that could have been implemented that would encourage this, from profession interdependencies to certain needs that have to be satisfied etc. You know, the general principles that led people to build cities in real life.

But as you've said, in PvE people simply roleplay building a city (and even then, could you provide screenshots or videos of these "cities" and the inhabitant count? I've never seen anything that was more than a village with a mansion/fortress or two or a half-finished ghost town with a population so sparse that you could stand in it for a week and never see two people enter the same building at the same time), and in PvP, it's just a bunch of borderline exploits slapped onto one another.
(These posts about Wurm Online probably belong in the Wurm Online thread, but I guess since this thread is arguing MMO's like UO are dead then Wurm Online is relevant since I think it and other sandbox MMOs like Mortal Online and Xsyon indicate at least the sandbox/pvp part of UO isn't dead. Many players I find DO think of UO when they play Wurm Online for any length of time. I've seen it consistently! Even I think of UO. So if these posts about Wurm Online can make even a single person hesitate when saying "The genre is dead!"--regarding UO--then I've succeeded.)

It's hard for me to translate what you wrote there to my Wurm Online experience. Like, what do you mean "functional city" or "human (character) existence"? Reading the rest of what you write, I'm further confused by you implying Wurm Online has no "profession interdependencies" or "certain needs that have to be satisfied by others". Sigh, where do I start? It seems simple, but it isn't.

Most deeds are probably inactive or solo. So I'm not surprised you've entered some empty places. But there're settlements where several players work together. This might be more common on the PvP servers, but I see no reason it shouldn't happen on PvE. I cannot faithfully comment on PvE since I play on Chaos--except a very quick experience on a boat whence I transported someone to Xanadu from Chaos. But I hear plenty of stories of several players coming together in PvE. And I've had a couple experiences on the PvP servers where I was with several other people. (Keep in mind I play alone mostly.) I know for a fact there was a player made kingdom with probably a dozen players working together on Chaos. If you mean "functional" cities in the sense cities with 100's or thousands of players well then you won't find that in Wurm Online. Deeds also have a limited size.

You may be interested in this:
http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/129555-most-activepopulated-server-and-deeds-freedom/

I will put all of this in a spoiler tag so people who don't want to read won't have to scroll further....
I listed already several things which make players come together to make settlements on the PvE and PvP servers. Maybe what I will do is elabroate on those items I listed to define better how they contribute to a "functional city" that makes sense to you.

1) Protection against monsters--or players on PvP servers
....Functionally, this means lots of walls/gates and efficient movement so defenders can help defend. On Pvp servers this means all variety of weird exploit constructions. Usually very extreme time consuming things.
....On deeds, there'll be lots of NPC guards wandering randomly. They respawn automatically. Keep in mind deed guards can't move through walls, so they will use gates and doors.
....To elaborate on this point, the end result of all this is the game starts out very dangerous, but as you join a deed or make one yourself and hire guards and gain your own combat skills and equipment, the game starts to be much safer. At some point in a player's progression, danger from monsters is very small. Especially when they have high skills and good items and a horse. To great extent, you might say Wurm Online is less about survival and more about building, as you progress further. HOWEVER, this is not true on the PvP servers. There're tremendous threats on the PvP servers, no matter how strong you're.
2) Get things done faster if you work with someone else
....Functionally this means players working together. Working at a Forge is like being at a bar. I've routinely worked alongside other players when I was in settlements. It also means desiring efficient movement, like good roads and smart placement of buildings.
....Below I try to explain more about WHY players work together...
....Many skils are dependent on other skills. For example, making a boat means using smithing and carpentry and mining and tailoring and ropemaking and a few others. The fact players can train as many skills as they want as high as they want doesn't prevent players from oftentimes trading with other players. This is because raising skills is very time consuming. Odds are, you'll have many prominent crafting skills which you have negelected. Some examples of prominant crafting skills are mining, blacksmithing, weapongsmithing, leathermarking, animal husbandry, animal taming, masonry and plat armour smithing.
....Players can also build things together and this is generally true even if their skill levels are different. So this means two players working on a boat are going to finish it faster. Boats require a lot of time to make so it's very helpful. This can also be true for walls and houses and fences and bridges and many other things. Almost everything takes a lot of time to make.
....Skill interdependence and players being able help each other make something is what makes trading such a big part of things if saving time is important to you. This is the major reason players make big boats. They'll make a lot of bricks or dig a lot of dirt or some other bulk item and load it in the boat and then transport it to the buyer.
....If players split the cost of the deed between each other it's easier to afford it. This also allows htme to split the responsibilities of maintaininng it and constructing it. It would be a lot more time consuming and expensive to achieve on your own.​
3) Social... some people just want to be with other people, talk to them and be part of a community
....As you say, players roleplay cities. They want their settlement to be city-like.
....Players like to make big creative/intridicate things to impress others. In a settlement you can get instant reaction to what you make because everybody is near. And the more visible you make it, the more likely they'll see it. Players love to "beautify" everyting.​
4) Sharing of resources like silver (currency) or responsibilities (like repairing or recruiting or something)
....Idk what to say about this. It's similar to (2).​
5) if one of hte players is high skilled they'll imp your junk and make you uber
....It's a legitimate reason to be in a settlement, but functionally it's just interaction.​

Roads: The way you make roads on your settlement and where you put things will impact the efficiency you move stuff around. In Wurm Online, travel isn't cheap. So this will definitely impact the layout of a city. Generally, almost all settlements are flat. This is mostly the case because buildings require tiles to be flat, but it's also true because slopes slow movement speed.

I'll try to give you an idea of what settlements in Wurm Online look like by explaining what they need.

Generally, there're these things you need:
1) A place for your deed token--generally near the center
--On the pvp servers lots of walls surround it to protect it
2) (LOTS OF AREA) Paved paths/roads intersecting everything important--for moving faster
3) (LOTS OF AREA) A mine to get mined resources (like Iron)
--The mine will also have hte forge which produces the refined metals
4) Access or near proximity to a body of water for using a boat
--This might use a large area on PvP servers. On PvE, players can't steal boats. This means on PvP servers players build rectangular pond to keep the boat. When they want to move it off the deed they will put it on a transporter and move outside some stone houses to unload it onto the water.
5) A private place to keep your stuff--generally this is a house and every other member will have a house too
--Your private place will also probably have a bed for getting the sleeping bonus
6) (LOTS OF AREA) A farm for crops and a generally a bulk bin and food storage bin and maybe a small house to store what you produce
7) A well or a barrel or fountain with lots of water in it--you find these usually in the mine or near where everybody goes
8) Lots of gates--generally for fenced/walled areas
9) An oven for cooking food--generally near the farm
10) A place for coal making--doesn't have to be a big area but need room to see individual piles
11) A place for a trash bin or maybe a couple places
12) Loom for tailors
13) Lots of barrels/chests/etc for organize public dropped items... these are usually near crafting stations (like forge)
14) Lanterns/lights for lighting the settlement and the walkways
15) (LOTS OF AREA) Fenced areas for animal husbandry--breeding animals like horses
16) Altars for the religion system--some players make full scale churches (mostly for roleplaying I think)
17) Some areas for potted plants or trees or other beautifying arrangements
18) A kiln for pottery or keys
19) (LOTS OF AREA) Walls to keep monsters (or players) out and to keep a house writ from decaying.

I bolded (LOTS OF AREA) for things I think REQUIRE a lot of space in a settlement.

Because you can put a lot of items in a container and put a lot of containers on 1 tile and because teh game doesn't have collision detection for items then YES to some extent you can pack a LOT of things into a very small space, meaning it may not be very house-like or city-like. Playres usually make it city-like anyway because it both maeks it easier to see and it's easier to click on.

So the functional similartiies between a settlement in Wurm Online and RL is different primarily because:
1) Settlements in Wurm Online are almost always flat because deed owners want to use every tile on their deed to not waste $$$. While digging is time consuming, it's worth the effort to most players to make it all flat.
2) No collision detection for items means players can cram stuff into a small area, meaning big houses are more aesthetic than functional
--However I forgot to say I think only 1 bed can be on a tile. And only 1 person can use a bed.
3) No simulation for how weather affects the body, so being indoors won't give you benefits
4) Players come together in-person usually when using crafting stations like Forges/Ovenes/Kilns/etc. They're the closest thing to a tavern in Wurm Online. Crafting stations are put nearest to the resources and within short distance of other things.
--Because we have global chat there's no real reason to chat with other people like at a tavern. There has to be a material need and generally crafting stations are hte greatest material need

EDIT: I forget to mention another huge reason players come together is for information and guidance. This is especially true for new players. It's just practical to get this in a settlement, not server chat. For one, in a settlement you can SEE what works without even asking a single question. Supplying a new player protection from dying is just the beginning.

I know when I started (on Serenity) I imediatley joined several players making a small village. It's a cherished meory. I had to figure out where to meet them which involved running around and almost getting lost. I met someoen and sailed on a boat as passenger. I was mesmerized by the shoreline and mountains. I saw our HQ. Several houses arranged near the shore with a big boat being constructed. I recall a campfire at night and all of us around it eating and chatting and planning. We even unearthed a "dungeon" aka. ruined mine. I eventually left (escaped?) because I felt threatened.

(The reason I felt threatened is laborous to explain. One of the guys wnated to raid other settlements and I didn't want to creat enemies yet. Another person also thought I had stole some of their stuff, even though I didn't. They were all on a boat asking me to come along and raid with them and I said no and sneakily collected all my things in a cart and just left into the wilderness. I was still a noob and the wilderness was veyr dangerous at the time. I was also lost. But I loved it. A long story short, I found myself on a far away shore learning how to make iron lumps when I decided to go to Chaos. I've been there now for over 3 years. And btw one of the players was named Radni. I have nothing personaly against any of them. They just apparently didn't trust me.)
 
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Scruffy

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Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
I have personally spoken with, at length, a person who spent $30,000 USD on a single MMO. I didn't believe him, so then he showed me proof.


Not trying to be edgy here, honest, anyone has the right to spend his money however he wants, but shouldn't this be considered some kind of mental illness?
Like, something similar to gambling maybe?
 

Mustawd

Guest
I have personally spoken with, at length, a person who spent $30,000 USD on a single MMO. I didn't believe him, so then he showed me proof.


Not trying to be edgy here, honest, anyone has the right to spend his money however he wants, but shouldn't this be considered some kind of mental illness?
Like, something similar to gambling maybe?


Depends on A:

1. How much money he has
2. How much time he spends on this.


But even with #2, there are plenty of people who spend $30k on other expensive hobbies/sports/activities. As long as the rest of his life is healthy, then I don't see a problem. I do find it odd, but I feel the same way about people who spend a ton of cash on cars. It's a fucking machine. Who cares how fast it goes?
 

Scruffy

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Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
right, well... at least a car is real and you can re-sell it?
I don't know, it just seems weird

anyway, my opinion on the matter is: MMORPG died when instant gratification became more important than actual "important" results. For me, bringing magery to 100 (for example) was a challenge in itself, when it became quick and easy it sort of lost its charm. Same for Wow. I remember people inspecting me and congratulating me on my first purple, etc. When you start catering to kids, you get kids playing I guess
 

Mustawd

Guest
I mean the guy could be bat-shit crazy, but I don't think it's automatic just because he spends a ton of money on an MMO.
 

Gregz

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He built and owned a business of over 200 employees in Alabama, sold it, and retired in his 40s.

Very personable guy, he was our clan leader in WoT.
 
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(......)
WoW's subscriber numbers are genuinely and irreversibly falling now, although it still has many millions of players. EVE Online's player base had actually been steadily increasing for over a decade (a feat unparalleled by any other game in history, as far as I know), yet in 2014-2015, even EVE's subscribers have been steadily declining.

For me, that's the real gut-punch: EVE's subscriber numbers falling. It's the sort of thing that, although inevitable, is shocking and surreal to actually see—like when old Gran Gran, who's been amazingly healthy for decades despite her age, has a fall and then her health rapidly declines.
Games get old. Why are so many people surprised? They mudflate. I EXPECTED this to happen. Yet when it occurs players like yourself always blame something, like F2P or casuals or something else. Face it, it's easy to shine up a new game but a lot harder to keep an old one shiny. And the reason this occurs is manyfold. Why do old things fall apart?

In the past, I focused most of my interest on mudflation. Mudflate addresses the fragmentation of the community. But at some point it fails to heal enough wounds. The MMO is slowly dying. Some links from 2005 about mudflation:
http://cesspit.net/drupal/node/555/
http://cesspit.net/drupal/node/964/

I played Everquest over a decade and witnessed this mudlfation and slow decline. Back then I interpreted it as WoWifying. I blamed casuals. I didn't know about mudflation or all of the demands placed on MMO's. I was like you.

In later years I also appreciated other things which make a game die. For example, there were lots of old graphics (low poly models) in Everquest, as well as old mechanics which were mixed with new ones. This caused a lot of inconsistency and even confusion. Players might notice other MMOs which had better graphics but also would run with a smoother framerate.
 
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The genre is not dead in the long-run, but right now, it's in a deep rut, and might be for a while. The same thing happened to it as all the other genres in the 2000s/2010s, smaller companies staffed by people who love games were gradually replaced by giant corporations looking to optimize their profits and to do so by catering to an ever larger audience of casuals and console players. Non surprisingly, the nature of MMOs gradually changed to be less involved, more passive and filled with more instant gratification to the point of the games basically playing themselves. You can see this even within WoW itself, as vanilla WoW was a completely different game than what it is now.

Unfortunately for the genre, it has certain inherent characteristics that make it difficult for it to be rejuvenated like other genres. MMOs are very expensive, complex games that require large investments, which makes them a bad fit for indie developers, Kickstarter, and the like. I do think it will be revived at some point, simply because ultimately, what video game players want the most is to be lost in a giant alternate universe, where they can do all the things they can't do in the real world, and MMOs are as good a genre as any for delivering that. But it might take advancements in third party tools (some sort of pre-made networking middleware that can be used as a platform for your MMO for example) and perhaps smart design by indie MMO devs (e.g. you can make a fully functional and even pretty MMO using Farmville's like graphics for a fraction of the cost and bandwidth demands of 3D graphics).

There are also certain "problems" that have yet to be solved to make a successful MMO. One is how to balance player freedom in a sandbox environment with people's propensity to act like assholes and how that negatively impacts the rest of the game. Too much freedom and you drive away all non-sociopathic subscribers, leading the game to death, too little, and you end up with boring and static themepark worlds. I don't think any current MMO has solved this problem in a great way yet, and there are others too.
 

Blaine

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Games get old. Why are so many people surprised? They mudflate. I EXPECTED this to happen. Yet when it occurs players like yourself always blame something, like F2P or casuals or something else.

Do you not know what the word "inevitable" means? Did the significance of a metaphorical old lady kicking the bucket just sail right over your head? I'm neither surprised, nor of the opinion that F2P or casuals are "to blame." I only referred to the latter as a symptom of the industry and of the times. In your rush to feel superior, you seem to have confused me with a cipher who provided you with imaginary talking points.

Yes, online games do age, in every way it is possible for them to age: graphically, technically, socially, economically, even thematically—and players will also sooner or later begin to grow tired of the content and/or mechanics. That's why I stopped playing EVE Online a few years back. It was a great game, but I was tired of it. As I implied, it's not surprising that EVE's subscriber base is finally declining, but it's shocking to see.

Face it, it's easy to shine up a new game but a lot harder to keep an old one shiny.

It's apparently not that easy to shine up a new game, since so many new MMOs fail or are cancelled.

I know what you mean, though. The vast majority of development man-hours go toward the game's initial development and early updates; later updates and expansions may help to keep the game fresh, but there are diminishing returns. The game's fundamental premise and identity are set in the early months or years.
 

Norfleet

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It's apparently not that easy to shine up a new game, since so many new MMOs fail or are cancelled.
I would argue that inertia plays a role. Humans are creatures of habit, and generally rather loss-averse. Jumping ship to a new game means losing everything you worked for in the previous game, and trading it for a rather uncertain future starting from nothing. You're doing well here: Why go there? To make these games thus enticing to jump to, they must thus be made familiar. But a large part of what makes those games familiar is that they are terrible, which is why players were bored and looking for someplace else to be at all!

So, to be appealing, an MMO must have players. But there are a finite number of players, and all of them are currently playing something else. To attract these players, you need to offer them something familiar enough that they don't feel too out of their element to want to make the jump. But that means you're making the same awful game they're already playing. So shitty games proliferate, games which are truly new and different die from lack of players. Since these shitty games fail to distinguish themselves from the original shitty game, they, too, also die, and are replaced by shitty games just like them.
 

Bester

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I would argue that inertia plays a role. Humans are creatures of habit, and generally rather loss-averse. Jumping ship to a new game means losing everything you worked for in the previous game, and trading it for a rather uncertain future starting from nothing.
Disagree. Not in case of MMOs.
1) By trying a new MMO, you're not losing anything in your old one.
2) Trying something new is good. Like trying a new girl basically. Why would you ever say no to that? It's refreshing and satisfies your curiosity.

New MMOs fail because they fail to offer anything new and not the other way around.
 

Norfleet

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1) By trying a new MMO, you're not losing anything in your old one.
If you say this, you clearly aren't familiar with how the modern MMO works. Failure to show up for the grind = loss.

2) Trying something new is good. Like trying a new girl basically. Why would you ever say no to that? It's refreshing and satisfies your curiosity.
It depends on how much you value not being killed and eaten by the current one.

New MMOs fail because they fail to offer anything new and not the other way around.
They fail to offer anything new because to offer anything new is to create an uninviting environment outside of the prospective player's comfortzone. But the failure to offer anything new is also dooming: Why would the players defect from their existing positions as successful players of their current game to become a lowly noob elsewhere? In short, each new MMO is scraping from the pool of unsuccessful players who are dissatisfied in some undefineable way with their current haunt, but yet expect certain familiar elements which are often actually terrible design that will ultimately repel them as well.
 

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