Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Is this YouTuber full of shit? (Health regen)

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,498
Someone give this OP a Nobel already, had he made the thread like "check this stupidity guys" he'd have lots of shit and retadred but making it like "wow guys do you agree this is terrible?" he's reaping yeses and brofists. The famous "pull the Ezekiel" move is how we shall call it.
Eh. I don't really care. None of the forums I've ever been on had ratings. I felt like making this thread because I've been arguing with the same guy about Vanquish and Max Payne 3 for months. I was expecting bad ratings and a few insults too, because that's how most of my threads here have gone.
 
Last edited:

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Health regen works in Vanquish because you're given enough tools to avoid taking damage (cigars, speed, nades, boost canceling, boosting from cover to cover to avoid line of fire, etc.) through skill, whereas you're forced back into cover if you take too much damage or are too zealous on your booster energy. It's not a patchwork solution for having hitscan enemies when you can still avoid taking damage entirely through learning the game. As Vanquish is about going fast, you don't really want to waste time scouring the level for medkits. Having regenerating health keeps the downtime brief so you can be on your way ASAP. When you consider that Vanquish grades you on how fast you complete levels, with taking damage to a critical degree serving as a time penalty by forcing you to recover by forcefully emptying your booster.

Another thing to note is that you take damage rather quickly in Vanquish and don't have a lot of HP. A medkit restoring only 50% HP in this case would be pointless as that only keeps you half a second away from death under continuous fire. Levels in Vanquish are usually structured as enemy-filled corridors with some empty areas between them, unlike the mazes of Doom where long-term management of your HP was important throughout the whole level. Manual medkit placement wouldn't work in Vanquish because you're bound to be restored to 100% in the inbetween areas, and manual medkit placement would force you to get behind cover where there's a medkit, rather than just getting behind cover, invalidating a large part of the level. On top of that it'd just force you to memorize medkit placements as newer players would keep taking damage which they couldn't regenerate, and die quicker as a result of not knowing where the medkits are just in case they need it. In Vanquish portable medkits would be a temporary annoyance which might have as well just been a triple-sized health bar since all it would ask of you is to press a button when your health is critical, as it won't regenerate.

More fancier health systems would imply changing several other core things about Vanquish to make them work, at which point we're no longer talking about Vanquish but about a non-existent game, it's kind of moot to argue that something would improve a game if it involves completely changing what the game set out to do originally.

You can also dictate player pace by giving health regen, since players are likely to have more appetite for risk when health is high, and risk adverse when health pool runs low.

Is nuDoom's system then a successful countermeasure which forces you to take risks (melee) when you are at low health?
No, because Glory Killing is foremost a crutch which nobody uses at higher levels, because it doesn't work exactly as you just described it. Glory Killing will give you guaranteed health drops, but when you are on high HP these drops are so minimal and not worth the risk of being frozen in one place and have the enemies land a shot on you just as you're about to exit your i-frames from the Glory Kill animation and trying to reorient yourself to see what's happening behind you. When you are on low health, Glory Killed enemies will drop a lot more health. However, if you are on low health, enemies are going to drop a lot of health no matter what, even if you kill them from a distance. So in that case, why would you Glory Kill them?

Glory Killing just gets you killed on higher difficulties, almost no Ultra-Nightmare playthrough makes frequent use of it. The main intention of Glory Kills is to encourage you to get close, but it is pointless when every other design decision in that game already encourages you to get close. Shotgun range is poor and works better when you get up close. Enemies are always trying to get up close. Arenas are cramped so you can't keep the enemy at a distance. Most of your weapons work more effectively when used close-range. Item auto-pickup range is rather short. The only thing Glory Kills are really good for is to make the most moronic of players understand 'get close = more health' through cinematic action and gratuitous violence, so that they won't try to run away from enemies all the time even though getting up close is already more efficient from a combat standpoint. Though you only find that out the hard way, but then we're speaking about Bethesda.

However, a mechanic whose only use is for new players has no use for more experienced players. Which makes it doubly silly that the game is designed around a handicap for newer players, meaning staggering enemies in Nightmare doesn't provide a free Glory Kill opportunity, but just gives you more time to finish off an enemy effortlessly/waste ammunition. The risk of Glory Killing in Nightmare is just not worth it because it leaves you open to fireballs dealing 50 DMG, when killing enemies normally already gives you your HP.

So what the system really does is to encourage you to keep killing enemies for health. It doesn't really matter how you kill them, just as long as you do it, kind of being antithetical to the whole risk thing when you're encouraged to keep on doing what you were doing (killing enemies) regardless if you are on high or low health. The game automatically takes care of your HP for you. Take too much damage, kill some enemies, and your health is back. All you need to do is focus on avoiding attacks and killing enemies. This system asks more involvement on the player's side of things to maintain his HP, namely by removing the element of health management in the player's thought process entirely. The system is a whole lot more shallow than it seems. This way you are not forced into cover or forced into seeking medkits if you are on low health, but nothing really forces you to change up when on low health. Which I think misses the point of health management entirely.

Of course enemy health drops will rarely restore you back to full HP as you're expected to Glory Kill for guaranteed drops to keep up your HP once your HP is high enough to not be eligible for emergency health drops, though you can kind of cheat it by abstaining from getting near health pick-ups and killing more enemies while on low health to generate more health drops. Now, abstaining from immediate health recovery in favor of engaging more enemies at low health to generate more health in the long term, THAT would be some real risk/reward type of deal, unfortunately your dumb ass keeps sucking up all nearby health drops making this rather impossible to consistently perform.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,163
Location
Bulgaria
All the youtubers are useless pieces of shit at best. The nuw doom is a modernised repetitive slow garbage. You have to constantly stop and punch glowing ugly models,also have repetitive level design and piss filter! Regen health is wank!
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,498
Health regen works in Vanquish because you're given enough tools to avoid taking damage (cigars, speed, nades, boost canceling, boosting from cover to cover to avoid line of fire, etc.) through skill, whereas you're forced back into cover if you take too much damage or are too zealous on your booster energy. It's not a patchwork solution for having hitscan enemies when you can still avoid taking damage entirely through learning the game. As Vanquish is about going fast, you don't really want to waste time scouring the level for medkits. Having regenerating health keeps the downtime brief so you can be on your way ASAP. When you consider that Vanquish grades you on how fast you complete levels, with taking damage to a critical degree serving as a time penalty by forcing you to recover by forcefully emptying your booster.

Another thing to note is that you take damage rather quickly in Vanquish and don't have a lot of HP. A medkit restoring only 50% HP in this case would be pointless as that only keeps you half a second away from death under continuous fire. Levels in Vanquish are usually structured as enemy-filled corridors with some empty areas between them, unlike the mazes of Doom where long-term management of your HP was important throughout the whole level. Manual medkit placement wouldn't work in Vanquish because you're bound to be restored to 100% in the inbetween areas, and manual medkit placement would force you to get behind cover where there's a medkit, rather than just getting behind cover, invalidating a large part of the level. On top of that it'd just force you to memorize medkit placements as newer players would keep taking damage which they couldn't regenerate, and die quicker as a result of not knowing where the medkits are just in case they need it. In Vanquish portable medkits would be a temporary annoyance which might have as well just been a triple-sized health bar since all it would ask of you is to press a button when your health is critical, as it won't regenerate.

More fancier health systems would imply changing several other core things about Vanquish to make them work, at which point we're no longer talking about Vanquish but about a non-existent game, it's kind of moot to argue that something would improve a game if it involves completely changing what the game set out to do originally.
But how many people know Vanquish well enough and have the skill to play it like that? I tried, but every now and then it forced me back into situations in which I had to use a lot of cover. I played it on Hard. The incessant beeping got annoying. The stamina system annoyed me too, and I didn't like having to use the ridiculous looking rocket slide so much. I think an enemy harvesting health system would have been better. Maybe you could have shot weakened enemies in specific places or the health could have exploded out of them with high kill streaks or long periods of delivering damage without receiving any, similar to Devil May Cry.
 
Last edited:

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Why not play it on a lower difficulty so you can try out the more fancier tricks in Vanquish?
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,470
He probably went in expecting "modern hard". Wherein you have to put it on the highest level to manage to get anything out of it at all, and even then the game fails to engage.

I don't know, though. Not played Vanquish. As it's a Jap game there's a slightly higher chance it actually expects something of you, though. The japanese are the original "nintendo hard"-tier sadists.
 
Self-Ejected

unfairlight

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,092
Having mobile health supplies is and will forever be the superior system, as it allows you to heal whenever, keep moving, makes you explore the map for more and adds a layer of resource management. I think the painkillers in Max Payne 1 & 2 did it right.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,470
Depends on the overarching design my friend. But for singleplayer, portable inventory > fixed medkits > regen health generally speaking, I agree.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,498
Why not play it on a lower difficulty so you can try out the more fancier tricks in Vanquish?
What fancier tricks? I think I used them all regularly. The rocket slide, obviously, the melee, the rocket slide connecting into a kick, the roll... What else is there? I mean, aside from the weapon powers. It's pretty basic. I played it on Hard because that was recommended to prevent boredom. I did lower it to Normal at a few annoying parts.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,549
Location
Kelethin
People should not be allowed to comment on FPSs unless they played System Shock recently and keep referring to it.
 

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Why not play it on a lower difficulty so you can try out the more fancier tricks in Vanquish?
What fancier tricks? I think I used them all regularly. The rocket slide, obviously, the melee, the rocket slide connecting into a kick, the roll... What else is there? I mean, aside from the weapon powers. It's pretty basic. I played it on Hard because that was recommended to prevent boredom. I did lower it to Normal at a few annoying parts.


Take a look at how some God Hard players play the game and see if you can learn something.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
79
Why not play it on a lower difficulty so you can try out the more fancier tricks in Vanquish?
What fancier tricks? I think I used them all regularly. The rocket slide, obviously, the melee, the rocket slide connecting into a kick, the roll... What else is there? I mean, aside from the weapon powers. It's pretty basic. I played it on Hard because that was recommended to prevent boredom. I did lower it to Normal at a few annoying parts.


Take a look at how some God Hard players play the game and see if you can learn something.


Now I know why it failed on consoles.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
Having mobile health supplies is and will forever be the superior system, as it allows you to heal whenever, keep moving, makes you explore the map for more and adds a layer of resource management. I think the painkillers in Max Payne 1 & 2 did it right.
Inventory health just leads to hoarding. Having to use a healthpack from the ground and then play carefully until you see the next one makes you a lot more tactical.
 
Self-Ejected

unfairlight

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,092
Having mobile health supplies is and will forever be the superior system, as it allows you to heal whenever, keep moving, makes you explore the map for more and adds a layer of resource management. I think the painkillers in Max Payne 1 & 2 did it right.
Inventory health just leads to hoarding. Having to use a healthpack from the ground and then play carefully until you see the next one makes you a lot more tactical.

Or you could just cap it. Max Payne allowed a maximum of 8 bottles of painkillers, pretty simple solution if you ask me.
 
Self-Ejected

unfairlight

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
4,092
Scarcity depends from player to player, worse players obviously need more of them while good ones don't need as much. Max Payne 2 had a really nice balance with it. I found myself running out of bottles pretty often in harder missions, so level designers need to think out their maps pretty carefully to not make it too easy or hard.
 

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Scarcity depends from player to player, worse players obviously need more of them while good ones don't need as much. Max Payne 2 had a really nice balance with it. I found myself running out of bottles pretty often in harder missions, so level designers need to think out their maps pretty carefully to not make it too easy or hard.
Max Payne (2) also dynamically adjusted painkiller placement so you found less when you were performing great and more when you were performing badly, which I guess kinda worked.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,626
A flat rollercoaster sucks. Health regen removes the ups and downs of the level flow and eliminates one of the player's objectives.

Creative and convoluted excuses also exist for removing boss encounters. In both cases these are academic excuses for developer sloth.
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
2,998
Regenerating health virtually always has negative consequences for encounter and level design and playstyles.
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, enemy design is inherently limited, e.g. you can't have weak enemies that slowly chip away at your health over the course of a level.
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, you can't have environmental hazards (or if you do, they have to be insta-kill traps, which is a terrible solution).
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, the player never has to weigh the cost of going on the offense vs. having enough health/medkits to make it through the rest of the level.
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, this reduces what kind of gear and items are available to the player, and consequently reduces the amount of playstyles and incentive for exploration (e.g. healing spells and medkits either don't exist or aren't all that useful in games with regenerating health).
  • Regenerating health heavily favors playing defensively (e.g. popping back into cover to heal up) over all other playstyles.

The outcome of anything that happens in a game with regenerating health can only be a game over or a flawless victory. Because of this binary nature and because nothing outside of a game over has any real consequences, games with regenerating health tend to more easily devolve into a very rote and monotonous gameplay loop.

Of course the video that purports to seriously analyze regenerating health makes no mention of any of this. :roll:

A flat rollercoaster sucks. Health regen removes the ups and downs of the level flow and eliminates one of the player's objectives.

Creative and convoluted excuses also exist for removing boss encounters. In both cases these are academic excuses for developer sloth.
Since when is the inclusion of boss encounters automatically a net positive? I can think of plenty of games that only included boss battles because of cargo cult design, and those games would be improved if their boss battles were excised.

Another thing to note is that you take damage rather quickly in Vanquish and don't have a lot of HP. A medkit restoring only 50% HP in this case would be pointless
That's hardly a compelling argument in favor of regenerating health. Most games with regenerating health have fragile protagonists, because at some point the developers realize that with the absence of health management, it's the only way to introduce some modicum of challenge (albeit not a very interesting kind of challenge). Adam Jensen for example instantly dies from a 3-foot fall without the Icarus landing augmentation. Vanquish doesn't have regenerating health because the player character is fragile, they made the player character fragile to justify the use of regenerating health.

Health regen works in Vanquish because you're given enough tools to avoid taking damage (cigars, speed, nades, boost canceling, boosting from cover to cover to avoid line of fire, etc.) through skill, whereas you're forced back into cover if you take too much damage or are too zealous on your booster energy. It's not a patchwork solution for having hitscan enemies when you can still avoid taking damage entirely through learning the game. As Vanquish is about going fast, you don't really want to waste time scouring the level for medkits. Having regenerating health keeps the downtime brief so you can be on your way ASAP. When you consider that Vanquish grades you on how fast you complete levels, with taking damage to a critical degree serving as a time penalty by forcing you to recover by forcefully emptying your booster.
The fact that many of the tools you list rely on the use of cover doesn't really help your argument. Vanquish is a game very much built around regenerating resources, both your health and your ability to rocket slide. Like most other cover shooters, you don't have a lot of mobility either, you can't jump and you can only rocket slide for a few seconds before you have to wait for the bar to refill or the suit to stop overheating, and the default movement speed is very sluggish. In many respects, Vanquish isn't very different from other cover-based shooters with regenerating health.

And being graded on how long you take to complete levels is an artificial crutch and certainly not something that justifies the use of regenerating health. If you want to incentivize and reward players for playing a certain way, you should do it through the gameplay mechanics, not some meta layer like a ranking system. For example, Doom's highest difficulty naturally rewards playing fast, because monsters will continually respawn, will move and attack faster and health and ammo pickups are limited, so the player has no choice but to move at a breakneck pace.
 
Last edited:

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
5,498
Take a look at how some God Hard players play the game and see if you can learn something.
Doesn't really seem very different. I don't own the game and I already deleted it, so, if I learn something new about it, I can't apply it anyway. I don't know how much of my bitterness is from arguing about the game with the same guy for the last couple of months, but I don't like it and I don't feel like playing it again. Cross, above me, is right. The main character is weak. Great response!
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,642
"There's a lot to like about the nu-doom game"
Why would you watch past this? Flag for terrorism and move on.
 

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
"There's a lot to like about the nu-doom game"
Why would you watch past this? Flag for terrorism and move on.
I wouldn't say "a lot"
For example nuDoom happened to have the only good (decent) first-person shooter boss fights in the whole fucking history of first-person shooters
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
79
Regenerating health virtually always has negative consequences for encounter and level design and playstyles.
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, enemy design is inherently limited, e.g. you can't have weak enemies that slowly chip away at your health over the course of a level.
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, you can't have environmental hazards (or if you do, they have to be insta-kill traps, which is a terrible solution).
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, the player never has to weigh the cost of going on the offense vs. having enough health/medkits to make it through the rest of the level.
  • Because your health instantly regenerates, this reduces what kind of gear and items are available to the player, and consequently reduces the amount of playstyles and incentive for exploration (e.g. healing spells and medkits either don't exist or aren't all that useful in games with regenerating health).
  • Regenerating health heavily favors playing defensively (e.g. popping back into cover to heal up) over all other playstyles.

The outcome of anything that happens in a game with regenerating health can only be a game over or a flawless victory. Because of this binary nature and because nothing outside of a game over has any real consequences, games with regenerating health tend to more easily devolve into a very rote and monotonous gameplay loop.

Of course the video that purports to seriously analyze regenerating health makes no mention of any of this. :roll:

A flat rollercoaster sucks. Health regen removes the ups and downs of the level flow and eliminates one of the player's objectives.

Creative and convoluted excuses also exist for removing boss encounters. In both cases these are academic excuses for developer sloth.
Since when is the inclusion of boss encounters automatically a net positive? I can think of plenty of games that only included boss battles because of cargo cult design, and those games would be improved if their boss battles were excised.

Another thing to note is that you take damage rather quickly in Vanquish and don't have a lot of HP. A medkit restoring only 50% HP in this case would be pointless
That's hardly a compelling argument in favor of regenerating health. Most games with regenerating health have fragile protagonists, because at some point the developers realize that with the absence of health management, it's the only way to introduce some modicum of challenge (albeit not a very interesting kind of challenge). Adam Jensen for example instantly dies from a 3-foot fall without the Icarus landing augmentation. Vanquish doesn't have regenerating health because the player character is fragile, they made the player character fragile to justify the use of regenerating health.

Health regen works in Vanquish because you're given enough tools to avoid taking damage (cigars, speed, nades, boost canceling, boosting from cover to cover to avoid line of fire, etc.) through skill, whereas you're forced back into cover if you take too much damage or are too zealous on your booster energy. It's not a patchwork solution for having hitscan enemies when you can still avoid taking damage entirely through learning the game. As Vanquish is about going fast, you don't really want to waste time scouring the level for medkits. Having regenerating health keeps the downtime brief so you can be on your way ASAP. When you consider that Vanquish grades you on how fast you complete levels, with taking damage to a critical degree serving as a time penalty by forcing you to recover by forcefully emptying your booster.
The fact that many of the tools you list rely on the use of cover doesn't really help your argument. Vanquish is a game very much built around regenerating resources, both your health and your ability to rocket slide. Like most other cover shooters, you don't have a lot of mobility either, you can't jump and you can only rocket slide for a few seconds before you have to wait for the bar to refill or the suit to stop overheating, and the default movement speed is very sluggish. In many respects, Vanquish isn't very different from other cover-based shooters with regenerating health.

And being graded on how long you take to complete levels is an artificial crutch and certainly not something that justifies the use of regenerating health. If you want to incentivize and reward players for playing a certain way, you should do it through the gameplay mechanics, not some meta layer like a ranking system. For example, Doom's highest difficulty naturally rewards playing fast, because monsters will continually respawn, will move and attack faster and health and ammo pickups are limited, so the player has no choice but to move at a breakneck pace.

Vanquish becomes harder if you play the game safe. If you dont like the fucking game then ignore, you dont have to justify your hate for it just like what bethesdafags to with Obsidian games.
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
2,998
"There's a lot to like about the nu-doom game"
Why would you watch past this? Flag for terrorism and move on.
I wouldn't say "a lot"
For example nuDoom happened to have the only good (decent) first-person shooter boss fights in the whole fucking history of first-person shooters
Hardly. The concept of traditional boss battles in an FPS is inherently stupid to begin with, and nuDoom merely continues that dumb tradition.

What is the greatest possible challenge in an FPS? It's aiming, or more specifically aiming at a target that's moving really fast and therefore hard to hit. What is the archetypal boss fight? It's a gigantic, slow-moving HP sponge, i.e. the easiest enemy to hit, not the hardest.

Unreal's Skaarj are more interesting to fight than 99% of FPS bosses, and they're not even bosses.
 
Last edited:

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Another thing to note is that you take damage rather quickly in Vanquish and don't have a lot of HP. A medkit restoring only 50% HP in this case would be pointless
That's hardly a compelling argument in favor of regenerating health. Most games with regenerating health have fragile protagonists, because at some point the developers realize that with the absence of health management, it's the only way to introduce some modicum of challenge (albeit not a very interesting kind of challenge). Adam Jensen for example instantly dies from a 3-foot fall without the Icarus landing augmentation. Vanquish doesn't have regenerating health because the player character is fragile, they made the player character fragile to justify the use of regenerating health.
The player is made fragile because you have no business walking around being able to tank bullets when you should be sliding away from bullets instead, hence why you die so fast. Especially because like I said before, Vanquish doesn't play the long-term game, and with medkits you'd be in a critical state for longer than need be as you're desperately trying to find your way back to a piece of cover which has a medkit behind it, slowing the game down as you're trying to heal yourself. There's not a whole lot health management would add to Vanquish, and more it would diminish. If you had more health, then you could bruteforce your way through more by tanking damage and playing the popamole game. Whereas with less you'll be forced back into cover more often, and if you want to go fast without receiving critical damage you'll have to think outside the box.

Having to twiddle thumbs around health management would slow the game down, which is exactly the very opposite Vanquish is going for. It'd make things more 'tactical', but this is not that kind of game. It's about going fast in the here and now without having to worry what happens in the future. If you want to make a better case for why health management would improve Vanquish, you should explain how it would improve what Vanquish is going for. If the incorporation of health management would break several existing elements and would have to involve changing several key aspects of the game to the point where it can't be called the same game anymore, it isn't necessarily improved, but just changed.

Health regen works in Vanquish because you're given enough tools to avoid taking damage (cigars, speed, nades, boost canceling, boosting from cover to cover to avoid line of fire, etc.) through skill, whereas you're forced back into cover if you take too much damage or are too zealous on your booster energy. It's not a patchwork solution for having hitscan enemies when you can still avoid taking damage entirely through learning the game. As Vanquish is about going fast, you don't really want to waste time scouring the level for medkits. Having regenerating health keeps the downtime brief so you can be on your way ASAP. When you consider that Vanquish grades you on how fast you complete levels, with taking damage to a critical degree serving as a time penalty by forcing you to recover by forcefully emptying your booster.
The fact that many of the tools you list rely on the use of cover doesn't really help your argument. Vanquish is a game very much built around regenerating resources, both your health and your ability to rocket slide. Like most other cover shooters, you don't have a lot of mobility either, you can't jump and you can only rocket slide for a few seconds before you have to wait for the bar to refill or the suit to stop overheating, and the default movement speed is very sluggish. In many respects, Vanquish isn't very different from other cover-based shooters with regenerating health.
Many other cover-based shooters don't allow you to offset incurring damage through mobility like Vanquish can. In other cover shooters, taking damage is practically a binary state. It's almost inevitable if you peek. Even though energy regenerates, energy management is still an important part of the game. As suit energy allows you to perform all kinds of wacky tricks to be more aggressive, it becomes important to manage as abusing it will overheat you and leave you defenseless. You then might ask why you might as well not add health management to the mix, and it's because your health is strongly tied to your suit energy already.

If you're out of energy, you're a sitting duck unless you get back into cover or kill the remaining enemies before they can shoot you. If your health is critical, slow-mo is triggered automatically and suit energy will automatically deplete, giving you a few seconds in slow-motion to plan how you're going to defend yourself instead of getting insta-killed because of a hitscan barrage like in most other games, but after that you're out of juice and need to plan ahead. Health and energy are already strongly intertwined. But it doesn't take that long to replenish either, so unless you're getting hit all the time you can boost and punch more often and have a nice fast day. You're not weighing the cost of offense by your remaining health, but by your suit energy. If health was a limited resource, then there'd be less opportunity to use your suit energy because healing yourself takes priority. Though I agree melee attacks consuming all your energy is pretty gay.

Since we're already on the topic of Mark Brown:


And being graded on how long you take to complete levels is an artificial crutch and certainly not something that justifies the use of regenerating health. If you want to incentivize and reward players for playing a certain way, you should do it through the gameplay mechanics, not some meta layer like a ranking system. For example, Doom's highest difficulty naturally rewards playing fast, because monsters will continually respawn, will move and attack faster and health and ammo pickups are limited, so the player has no choice but to move at a breakneck pace.
But Vanquish does the same thing. It's much easier, faster, and more engaging to play like this:


Besides, if the game flat out tells you through your score and end-stage ranking that you fucking suck, isn't that enough to know there's still plenty of room for improvement? Most Platinum usually give you a clearly crappy Stone Award or a low rank if you stumble your way through, for which Vanquish is sadly the only exception to with its flat scores for which you don't know if you did good or bad. It doesn't affect gameplay besides grading your performance, but normally it should tell you there's more to the game if you know how to get high ranks. When faced with the question of being able to play Vanquish while looking cool or playing Vanquish like a generic cover shooter, I don't know why people willingly choose the latter despite there being plenty of online footage of superplayers having to use next to no cover at all.

You argue too strongly from the position of classical euroshooters, where the presence of health and ammo management made sense and the levels were actually built around those ideas, whereas the levels in Vanquish simply aren't. There's no enemies in Vanquish who could chip away at your health, because there's just no place for them in the game as it is, which shouldn't be an inherent negative. Just like a RPG built around trash encounters dragging your party's resources down over time with limited resting available isn't necessarily superior over an RPG where encounters are always highly lethal, but you can always fully rest afterwards anyways. But then again health regen wasn't inhibitive to enemy design in Vanquish either. You get several from big robots with weak spots on their back encouraging mobility, enemies which act like mobile cover, more special mini-boss type of enemies, and several other mutators to prevent even the grunts from feeling stale.
Vanquish doesn't have much in the way of environmental hazards, because the environment and its enemies are built around messing with cover usage. So enemies will spam grenades like mad if you are behind cover, half-killed enemies will try to kamikaze you and force you to peek or run, some enemies have insta-kill projectile attacks which completely ignore cover, some cover can be destroyed, and in some parts of the game cover will actually randomly shift on or off.

"There's a lot to like about the nu-doom game"
Why would you watch past this? Flag for terrorism and move on.
I wouldn't say "a lot"
For example nuDoom happened to have the only good (decent) first-person shooter boss fights in the whole fucking history of first-person shooters
Hardly. The concept of traditional boss battles in an FPS is inherently stupid to begin with, and nuDoom merely continues that dumb tradition.

What is the greatest possible challenge in an FPS? It's aiming, or more specifically aiming at a target that's moving really fast and therefore hard to hit. What is the archetypal boss fight? It's a gigantic, slow-moving HP sponge, i.e. the easiest enemy to hit, not the hardest.

Unreal's Skaarj are more interesting to fight than 99% of FPS bosses, and they're not even bosses.
I don't disagree, but I was mostly referring to the fact that the bosses in nuDoom attack using special attacks you can actually dodge like in Ys, instead of having to solve a puzzle or hide behind cover. Which in some parts made the bosses more exciting to dodge than normal enemies.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
79
"There's a lot to like about the nu-doom game"
Why would you watch past this? Flag for terrorism and move on.
I wouldn't say "a lot"
For example nuDoom happened to have the only good (decent) first-person shooter boss fights in the whole fucking history of first-person shooters
Hardly. The concept of traditional boss battles in an FPS is inherently stupid to begin with, and nuDoom merely continues that dumb tradition.

What is the greatest possible challenge in an FPS? It's aiming, or more specifically aiming at a target that's moving really fast and therefore hard to hit. What is the archetypal boss fight? It's a gigantic, slow-moving HP sponge, i.e. the easiest enemy to hit, not the hardest.

Unreal's Skaarj are more interesting to fight than 99% of FPS bosses, and they're not even bosses.
I don't disagree, but I was mostly referring to the fact that the bosses in nuDoom attack using special attacks you can actually dodge like in Ys, instead of having to solve a puzzle or hide behind cover. Which in some parts made the bosses more exciting to dodge than normal enemies.

I agree, retro-style FPS bosses should be made with bullet hell style approach to their design to forces players to dodge attacks and be always on the move. FPS bosses could also have their own gimmicks and specific strenghts and weaknesses so that the player will be required to analyze the boss' patterns mid game, it would also be pretty cool to see an Ornstein and Smough style boss in an FPS game.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom