It's been almost six and a half years since New Vegas was released...

[pippin]

It's simple, you actively contribute to decline with complaints about absolutely menial details. You deserve those ratings.

 

[Sigourn]

It's simple, you actively contribute to decline with complaints about absolutely menial details. You deserve those ratings.

Presentation is one of the most important parts of videogames, just like it is in TV shows, films and music.

Imagine if we removed the presentation from Fallout's dialogue. It would literally be:

- "Water Chip"
- "Rumours"
- "Services"

Plus the "Taunt/Intimidate/Persuade" options.

 

[Krivol]

I installed NV again and now I put all those sweet retexture/relightning mods. It really looks better than vanilla F4, no idea why anyone would like to import F4 mechanics into NV.

I even put F4 HUD into that (for lulz, but feels refreshing after 300 hours with old HUD).

 

[Morality Games]

It's simple, you actively contribute to decline with complaints about absolutely menial details. You deserve those ratings.

Presentation is one of the most important parts of videogames, just like it is in TV shows, films and music.

Imagine if we removed the presentation from Fallout's dialogue. It would literally be:

- "Water Chip"
- "Rumours"
- "Services"

Plus the "Taunt/Intimidate/Persuade" options.

So, like Utiima.

 

[pippin]

name
job
water chip
caps
bye

 

[Background Character]

Call me when they make New Vegas isometric and Bethesda stops existing

 

[Sigourn]

It's simple, you actively contribute to decline with complaints about absolutely menial details. You deserve those ratings.

Presentation is one of the most important parts of videogames, just like it is in TV shows, films and music.

Imagine if we removed the presentation from Fallout's dialogue. It would literally be:

- "Water Chip"
- "Rumours"
- "Services"

Plus the "Taunt/Intimidate/Persuade" options.

So, like Utiima.

Ultima is an archaic game simply unacceptable for the 21st Century.

 

[Morality Games]

It's simple, you actively contribute to decline with complaints about absolutely menial details. You deserve those ratings.

Presentation is one of the most important parts of videogames, just like it is in TV shows, films and music.

Imagine if we removed the presentation from Fallout's dialogue. It would literally be:

- "Water Chip"
- "Rumours"
- "Services"

Plus the "Taunt/Intimidate/Persuade" options.

So, like Utiima.

Ultima is an archaic game simply unacceptable for the 21st Century.

That's kind of a superficial way of analyzing the differences between systems.

The Ultima conversation system required the player to do pretty much all of their own thinking in terms of what they thought or felt about the events and scenarios of the game (exactly the same way you might respond the events and scenarios of a tabletop RPG). They only game that may have truly bypassed the benefits of this system was PS:T because its sheer comprehensiveness allowed the player to role play almost any attitude or alignment.

Not saying subsequent systems were bad necessarily, but the Ultima conversation system was a unique animal.

If you've ever caught yourself in a moment in an RPG (such as when players think "Fuck you Anders" after he blows up the Kirkwall Chantry in DAII), then you realize to some extent that player dialogue is superfluous because players are more than capable of formulating their own cognitive responses to what NPCs do. Players often say them out loud to themselves while they are playing the games.

Morrowind was the last system I can think of that really did this type of conversation design well.

 

[McPlusle]

New Vegas is one of those games that I really, really want to like, but while I know there's a great story and some excellent quest design there, I just can't get past my distaste for the core gameplay mechanics (I feel the same way about Oblivion and Fallout 3, but those games also come with significantly more problems). I've never played it with mods though, so that's probably what'll change my mind.

 

[pippin]

The Ultima conversation system is the same conversation system every rpg has used since then, though.

 

[Sigourn]

That's kind of a superficial way of analyzing the differences between systems.

I was just joking about Ultima, I don't really know how it works. But the thing in Morrrowind is that there's a combination of elements that simply make it a terribly game for conversations:

- Most NPCs have literally no personality at all. They are all copies of each other.
- Responses are as neutral as they can be, with few exceptions.
- You have no input at all in conversations, other than "I want to know about this particular topic". And even then, it's just "Topic".

It's simply awful. I have no reason to talk to most NPCs because they may as well not be there. I don't care about an NPC's background if instead of "I'm the guy who is in charge of this farm" (which in turn gives me unique conversation opportunities) I get something generic as "I'm a commoner. I clean, cook" etc etc.

 

[boot]

That just isn't true, seems like you never played the game.

 

[Sigourn]

That just isn't true, seems like you never played the game.

Prove me wrong, then. Talk to me about Heddvild.

 

[boot]

Ok.

Caius Cosades is a crackhead super spy who sees the decline coming, Fargoth is a faggot, so on and sheeit. There's pretty good range of personalities. Most commoners spout generic shit but that's why they're commoners. What did you want from them? Quest givers and those you interact with during quests all have well defined personalities, with a few exceptions I guess but none really notable. Those with plot importance - and some service providers - also have their own distinct personalities.

You can check the wiki or something, I will not rattle off a big list. Best would be if you went back and played the game in full.

 

[Morality Games]

That's kind of a superficial way of analyzing the differences between systems.

I was just joking about Ultima, I don't really know how it works. But the thing in Morrrowind is that there's a combination of elements that simply make it a terribly game for conversations:

- Most NPCs have literally no personality at all. They are all copies of each other.
- Responses are as neutral as they can be, with few exceptions.
- You have no input at all in conversations, other than "I want to know about this particular topic". And even then, it's just "Topic".

It's simply awful. I have no reason to talk to most NPCs because they may as well not be there. I don't care about an NPC's background if instead of "I'm the guy who is in charge of this farm" (which in turn gives me unique conversation opportunities) I get something generic as "I'm a commoner. I clean, cook" etc etc.

Traditionally, the premise of the Elder Scrolls is that you are an itinerant wanderer who forms no alliances and accomplishes his goals with his own strength, sort of like Guts in Berserk during the Black Swordsman Arc. For that reason, connections with NPCs tend to be transient.

NPCs tend to be underwritten, even the quest givers, but that just makes them mysterious and hard to define, rooted more in flavor and impressions than exposition. For example, you have be in the Mage's Guild for awhile to realize things like:

The guild leader is totally incompetent as an archmage and gives you journal quests involving magic that are impossible to solve because he doesn't understand magic very well. Drives completionists insane that quests exist in the game which can't be solved, and as far as I know, he's the only one who gives them. He's basically a bureaucrat who has his position due to politics.

It's a crime syndicate or a super corrupt labor union based on rackets and murder and politics. Most real magic research and "engineering" in Morrowind takes place outside the auspices of the guild, and one of your early tasks is to go out and collect dues from (or kill) mages who are doing real magical research.

The manager who inducts you into the guild insists on you swearing a vow to not steal from or sabotage other mages, but then tells you to obey your superiors. When one of those superiors tells you to sabotage and steal from other mages, said manager lazily shrugs and says you should just do it. There's no authenticity to any of their guild's platform or ideals.

 

[Sigourn]

Ok.

Caius Cosades is a crackhead super spy who sees the decline coming, Fargoth is a faggot, so on and sheeit. There's pretty good range of personalities. Most commoners spout generic shit but that's why they're commoners. What did you want from them? Quest givers and those you interact with during quests all have well defined personalities, with a few exceptions I guess but none really notable. Those with plot importance - and some service providers - also have their own distinct personalities.

You can check the wiki or something, I will not rattle off a big list. Best would be if you went back and played the game in full.

No shit a plot character and a quest giver are unique. The point is that they are the minority in Morrowind. Every other NPC is just a pointless Wikipedia-style info dispenser. At least in Fallout those NPCs had nothing to talk about. In Morrowind, you just can't be sure which NPC is worth your time and which ones are filler best avoided.

 

[boot]

In Morrowind, you just can't be sure which NPC is worth your time and which ones are filler best avoided.

Yes you can, use your journal xDDDD

And Morality Games did a great job of breaking down exactly how the game conveys personality. You may have to use your brian a bit to piece it together, but the NPCs work.

 

[Sigourn]

In Morrowind, you just can't be sure which NPC is worth your time and which ones are filler best avoided.

Yes you can, use your journal xDDDD

And Morality Games did a great job of breaking down exactly how the game conveys personality. You may have to use your brian a bit to piece it together, but the NPCs work.

It's a shame you are all only talking about the unique NPCs, and not the ones that are pointless filler, which was my whole fucking point. Why do you think I asked you to explain Heddvild to me? Because she has no personality at all, she is one of many filler NPCs.

Even those that do have a personality offer generic responses to many different topics. Only time I've seen something this bad in an RPG was when in Skyrim, two different unique NPCs (Ralof and Hadvar) said the exact same dialogue when facing a bear in a cave.

 

[boot]

You are complaining about something nearly all RPGs do. They help fill the world, and at least the ones in Morrowind can give you region/faction/profession/race specific info. You usually won't be interacting with them.

I still think you wouldn't have said what you did unless you hadn't played the game.

 

[Sigourn]

You are complaining about something nearly all RPGs do. They help fill the world, and at least the ones in Morrowind can give you region/faction/profession/race specific info. You usually won't be interacting with them.

That's the thing, though: Morrowind's NPCs are good for giving info, sometimes, because they all essentially give the same info. Instead of making all NPCs copies of each other, Bethesda should have tried to make them slightly more distinguished from each other.

I still think you wouldn't have said what you did unless you hadn't played the game.

I have over 300 hours in Morrowind. That's more than enough of "playing the game".

 

[boot]

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

"I played it for more than 300 hours, and it sucks!" The classic Codexian sentiment!

 

[Krivol]

Morrowind needs a bit of imagination. Well, every rpg (or game at all) needs some, but abstraction level in Morrowind is perfect - game was immersive enough to feel the world, but left some space for imagination - that's why it feels much better than Skyrim in terms of world building.

 

[Higher Animal]

Morrowind is in the pantheon at this point purely due to aesthetics.

But I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about when it comes to a supposed lack of uniqueness in Morrowind NPCs. Just about every single one had some differentiation about them, and their generic response changed as you progressed in the game. The complaint isn't really about variations in NPCs, but redundancy. You could ask each NPC the same question, and receive just about the same response every time. The trick was to not ask them the same question, but progress the story or analyze clues about their environment to figure out who they are and what purpose they serve.

My guess is that less than 20% of the non-guard NPC, non Merchant population has no unique dialogues. If you don't believe me, go check out Seyda Neen's NPCs and see what you find.

 

[boot]

My guess is that less than 20% of the non-guard NPC, non Merchant population has no unique dialogues. If you don't believe me, go check out Seyda Neen's NPCs and see what you find.

you mean the opposite, right?

Most of the npcs you interact with for quests have unique dialogue, unique greetings. Even if 4/5 NPCs do not, does it matter? You will not be speaking to them, unless you want to know something even a commoner could tell you, like directions to the nearest guild, or silt strider... Maybe I don't understand your point.

Aesthetics are not Morrowind's strong point imo, but I think the base graphics are actually still good, I never mod them.