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Jagged Alliance Online - released, lol!

How do you like the JAO trailer

  • Nice. Has me intrigued...

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Nice idea but cheaply done. Ok, I guess.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They get a pity vote at least...but I still like the game

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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primetide said:
The relative merits of pre-paid games versus free to play have been discussed at length, so I won't go into that here. Suffice it to say, the game can be played without buying advantages. However it is true: in a PvP with two equally able players the one paying will have an advantage.
We have certain mechanisms in place to not let that balance shift completely, but if you have fundamental problems with free to play, then that is going to be an issue for you.
My reasoning goes like that: If I play the game and I like it, I can pay for it as much as I would have had I bought it in the first place. That is my personal limit. If the game would have sucked and I had paid money for a 3 months subscription for example, I wouldn't have even gotten the same value.
If you want to never pay for the game and still be as good as the guys paying, I think it is a bit much to ask, since then you are simply destroying the developers who made the game. But your mileage may vary...

Bullshit. Leauge of Legends and other games are perfectly able to sustain themselves without demanding payment for gameplay-advantages. If you are going to demand payment for these things, then there is no point in making the game "free2play" - you might as well demand money per unit (which I would have no problem with).

To be clear:

I want a full game. Whether I pay for it or if it is free (with cosmetic and utility stuff that doesn't directly affect the gameplay open for purchase) is up to the developer. But I'm not going to go through the hassle of a million expensive micro-transactions to acquire a full game. Thus, paying for gameplay-advantages means I will not even consider playing the game; there's just no point in it. I won't be buying gameplay-stuff, and since I won't play half a game, the conclusion is pretty straight-forward.
 

SoupNazi

Guest
Will there be an option to "buy" the game and have access to all of the premium stuff, or will you always have to buy each item/bonus in a microtransaction?
 

Mangoose

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
I can see it now. 10 years from now, F2P will be superceded by a new innovation: Subscriptions, where you can simply a flat rate per month and get all the microtransactions in one pack!
 

zeitgeist

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If you want to never pay for the game and still be as good as the guys paying, I think it is a bit much to ask, since then you are simply destroying the developers who made the game. But your mileage may vary...
When these developers are bent on destroying everything Jagged Alliance stands for as an idea, computer games as an art form (and through this art as such), any semblance of culture still left in our civilization, and by extension, all that is good and pure and worth striving for in this world, I would rather see them perish, than any of the above.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

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Grunker said:
primetide said:
The relative merits of pre-paid games versus free to play have been discussed at length, so I won't go into that here. Suffice it to say, the game can be played without buying advantages. However it is true: in a PvP with two equally able players the one paying will have an advantage.
We have certain mechanisms in place to not let that balance shift completely, but if you have fundamental problems with free to play, then that is going to be an issue for you.
My reasoning goes like that: If I play the game and I like it, I can pay for it as much as I would have had I bought it in the first place. That is my personal limit. If the game would have sucked and I had paid money for a 3 months subscription for example, I wouldn't have even gotten the same value.
If you want to never pay for the game and still be as good as the guys paying, I think it is a bit much to ask, since then you are simply destroying the developers who made the game. But your mileage may vary...

Bullshit. Leauge of Legends and other games are perfectly able to sustain themselves without demanding payment for gameplay-advantages. If you are going to demand payment for these things, then there is no point in making the game "free2play" - you might as well demand money per unit (which I would have no problem with).

To be clear:

I want a full game. Whether I pay for it or if it is free (with cosmetic and utility stuff that doesn't directly affect the gameplay open for purchase) is up to the developer. But I'm not going to go through the hassle of a million expensive micro-transactions to acquire a full game. Thus, paying for gameplay-advantages means I will not even consider playing the game; there's just no point in it. I won't be buying gameplay-stuff, and since I won't play half a game, the conclusion is pretty straight-forward.
:salute:

Item shops should be just for cosmetic and convenience items. This "pay to win" model you are adopting is something I thought F2P games were slowly getting rid of.
 

primetide

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The_scorpion said:
As repulsive as microtransaction models are, in a game like Ja:O, assuming it does stay as close to ja2 as it claims to and is reasonably balanced, it would probably be an issue primarily for PvP gameplay.

From my own experience with ja2 Multiplayer, there's indeed a breed of players that will probably buy all super-sniper-rifles of doom and power armour of immortality +1 in order to beat their opponents in PvP.

But let's see it this way: The single player and Coop-players (i count myself in that department...) will be lesser pressed to spend extra money and get cross-financed by the PvP fraction :smug:

And even then, cosmetic stuff can also work for microtransaction stuff. The way i picture the probable player, they'll like to customize their characters way beyond the borders of combat usefulness. So yeah, try microtransactions for cosmetic stuff first before impeding on PvP balancing.

Btw. primetide, what kind of coop missions do you offer in Ja:O?

(i'm working on Ja2 Multiplayer scenarios myself and want to hear what others have come up with) :salute:

we are looking into two sorts of missions - those you can play alone with say 6 mercs or together - there may be a tatcical advantage to that if you for example want more "tank-type" mercs in a close quarters scenario, but don't want to rent them for extra dough. Another player may have the same desire...
Then there are co-ops which simply require two teams at different entry points and co-ordinated action. I think we will wait for those until after launch, as they are the most difficult level design wise, so as not to make them too linear, but still have some real sharing of tasks.
 

primetide

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This is a discussion we cannot win - it simply is a decision made also by the guys that pay us to develop the game. I fully appreciate your position and of course we are sad if this means you are not going to play. But subscriptions statistically make as much as 80% of potential players notplay the game, so this is not an option.
However if there is a demand for that, we can indeed look into a "lifetime subscitpion" type option, which allows one to simply use all premium items.
However, to answer the question of balancing, we have several way we try to prevent people from simply buying into success:
1) the more high level items require a certain amount of 'fame' from the buyer to unlock. 'fame' is gained in PvP battles, so you cannot start by simply buying your way in with the plus 100% ubergun. You can basically buy slightly above your current level of fame
2) a similar value exists for singöe player progression - your Merc Company (yes, you own one) must have a certain reputation to be considered attractive to work for by higher level mercs and weapons may also not be available to you. So again- a paying player can make his time easier, but he can't just jump the queue.
3) Some mercs will even require more specific things, like 5 Bottles of Vodka/week. These need to be earned in missions (well that isn't the best example, as Vodka isn't really only available as a mission reward but you get the point).

So, in essence, you need to work your way up the ladder regardless of paying or not paying real money. But of course player who pay, will have an easier time, get healed more quickly, buy slightly better equipment and thus better chances of winning. This in no way makes up for bad tactis, as the game can be quite punishing if you just waltz into a group of hostiles.

But, again - it is F2P. If that means, you won't check out the game, we are sorry to loose you as a player.

But in a game such as JAO, where player frequemtly will buy ammo, wepaons, healing, mercs and other stuff from a shop with in-game money, I consider it not toom much of a nuisance to also use real money to do the same.
 

The_scorpion

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primetide said:
Then there are co-ops which simply require two teams at different entry points and co-ordinated action. I think we will wait for those until after launch, as they are the most difficult level design wise, so as not to make them too linear, but still have some real sharing of tasks.

Sounds as though these missions are at least not procedurally generated :salute:
As to objectives in those missions... what do they offer? what will there be beyond go in and kill them all? thx
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I like the fact that you are honest about the situation. I also appreciate that you don't throw a hissy-fit (as some developer's exposed to criticism on this board have done). An option to "purchase everything in one go", aka pay a big finite sum causing one to gain access to ALL gameplay-related content, would make me interested again. As this would be completely akin to buying a regular game.

As is, however, I will follow your game from afar (since I'm interested in the type of game you are making), but there are very slim chances that I will actually play it.

Regardless, I wish you luck with the actual game. This world has far too little turn-based action, and your attempt at constructing a modern TB-game is welcome.
 

SoupNazi

Guest
I completely agree with Grunker. Buying everything for one sum, similar to how Notch wants to do it in the future of Minecraft, is the only way I'll ever be willing to give JA:O a go. I feel as that would also make it easier to swallow for most people who loved JA but philosophically hold a grudge against anything F2P with microtransactions.

This is definitely better than that turd JA:Reloaded though, either way.

Edit: Also, did you start this in MMORPG Discussion or was it moved? Strategy Games would have been the better choice here :P
 

primetide

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I think it was moved- I started it in general, I seem to recall.

regarding mission objectives: we will add more as tiem continues, but for now we have: kill all, reach location and interact with object (so for example: get to the dictator's hideout's secret chamber or defuse that bomb)
and yes, the level are all lovingly hand crafted and carefully balanced - or so we hope.

Regarding F2P: I was very much in the same anti F2P camp for a long while, but my perspective shifted when we actually looked at the system and how you can make it less milking the player through the backdoor and more 'get the level of game you pay for'. But again: I can understand the philosophical differences.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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This is good news! Let's hope it accelerates the death of the 'other' Jagged Alliance incarnation. I'd rather play this, than that crap.
 

The_scorpion

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RK47 said:
This is good news! Let's hope it accelerates the death of the 'other' Jagged Alliance incarnation. I'd rather play this, than that crap.

what other JA incarnation? :smug:
 

primetide

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There is an offline version called JA: Back in Action which drops turn based in favor of a 'pause and go' real time with pause button game. It has been quite controversial so far with the fans.
 

primetide

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Excidium said:
He knows, hence the :smug: emote. Better to just pretend that game doesn't exist.
ah, sorry, didn't see the emote on my screen...just some funny signs. doh
 
Self-Ejected

Ulminati

Kamelåså!
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It's an agrument that's been made a thousand times. It saddens me that some developers still haven't listened.

When it comes to microtransactions: Sell Convenience and Cosmetics.

NEVER SELL POWER.

NEVER EVER SELL POWER IN A PVP GAME.

the end.

Sorry, as much as I loved Jagged Alliance, I'm not going to give this game even a casual glance as long as players can buy advantages free players cannot earn. Catering to Wallet Warriors is inexcusably bad design.

As much as linking to the escapist is borderline hanging offense 'round these parts, you would do well to pass this video around the studio: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... ansactions
 

Zed

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Codex USB, 2014
Yearp. Never sell them powers. Don't do anyone no good. Hats and other stupid shit is alright though.

Actually it works on one condition. Have servers reserved for non-powerbuying players. "Pure", "Normal" servers if you like.
 

primetide

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Zed said:
Yearp. Never sell them powers. Don't do anyone no good. Hats and other stupid shit is alright though.

Actually it works on one condition. Have servers reserved for non-powerbuying players. "Pure", "Normal" servers if you like.

funnily enough players in Russia and Asia often disagree - they WANT to outbuy the others.
We will try and limit power buying to a degree - so for example you cannot buy your way to the top. superior weapons are only going to be usable by mercs with enough XP and players with enough reputation.

But I think the seperate servers are a good idea - if enough people wouldplay on a clean server, we can make that work.
 

sgc_meltdown

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if not seperate servers you could do a 'exclude subscription accounts' option, something like that for random games

also if all goes well would you be willing to release figures to show that people still play turn based games
 

primetide

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sgc_meltdown said:
if not seperate servers you could do a 'exclude subscription accounts' option, something like that for random games

also if all goes well would you be willing to release figures to show that people still play turn based games

as we plan to do more turn based games we sure as hell will try and educate the world about them being a valuable source of income...if indeed they are, which of course remains to be proven.
 

The_scorpion

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come to think of it... i like the story of betrayal and revenge at which the trailer is hinting. Sounds a lot like Ja2 Vengeance. :P
The question remains of course, how much story there'll be in an MMO in the first place :?
 

primetide

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The_scorpion said:
come to think of it... i like the story of betrayal and revenge at which the trailer is hinting. Sounds a lot like Ja2 Vengeance. :P
The question remains of course, how much story there'll be in an MMO in the first place :?

ah well, it is not going to be an epic storyline filled with rendescenes. Then again, our missions will be strung togtehrr into contracts creating a mini-campaign. Some of those will have a common theme main storyline and recurring characters. I am not saying it is worthy of a novel, but JA1 and 2 weren't exactly world class literature either.
 

The_scorpion

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primetide said:
The_scorpion said:
come to think of it... i like the story of betrayal and revenge at which the trailer is hinting. Sounds a lot like Ja2 Vengeance. :P
The question remains of course, how much story there'll be in an MMO in the first place :?

ah well, it is not going to be an epic storyline filled with rendescenes. Then again, our missions will be strung togtehrr into contracts creating a mini-campaign. Some of those will have a common theme main storyline and recurring characters. I am not saying it is worthy of a novel, but JA1 and 2 weren't exactly world class literature either.

An overly developed main story wouldn't work well in an unlinear and sandboxy game like Ja2. In a mission based game, on the other hand...

Also, Story = cutscenes is only true for Xbox360 games aimed at 13 year olds. Nobody is asking for this decline, don't worry. I was rather thinking in terms of NPC interaction/ design and dialogue that creates a meta-story of the game universe and how much room there is in such an MMO design for that.
 

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