Jeff Vogel vs Pillars of Eternity

[Sizzle]

What secret areas?

Exagerated, it was used a couple times to open areas like the illithid lair.

Can't remember it having anything to do with the Ilithid lair. Or used to open any other area, for that matter.

The cost was so easily offset one has to wonder why they even bothered with it.

It was a nice touch.

It was one of those things that make no sense whatsoever, and are always criticized whenever a conversation about BG2 comes up.

You being a Watcher in PoE provided you with more quest solutions (especially in TWM) than you being a Bhaalspawn in the BG series did.

Sure, who cares tho? BG2 did it better by virtue of making it interesting. It all comes down to execution.

BG2 wasn't interesting because of the Bhaalspawn bits, it was interesting because of the sheer number of quests, items, spells and general content it provided.

 

[Lhynn]

BG2 wasn't interesting because of the Bhaalspawn bits, it was interesting because of the sheer number of quests, items, spells and general content it provided.

Wrong. The player being a bhaalspawn is a driving force during both games, it informs the player of his place in the world and dictate how he interacts with the powerful of the land. Being the bhaalspawn was a good hook that got taken advantage of fully.
Being a watcher was retarded, the game would have been pretty much exactly the same without that element. It doesnt work even as an excuse to get you going, it does fucking nothing.
This shit even even worth arguing over.

 

[Lacrymas]

Eh, I wouldn't say their being a Bhaalspawn was the driving force in BG1, but it depends on how you look at it. It starts their adventure, but it's pretty lowkey for the rest of the game, only coming up again when you return to Candlekeep and at the end battle with Sarevok. BG1 is a series of disconnected vignettes and little adventures which don't have a unified theme, you wouldn't miss anything important by just following the main plot. TotSC didn't feel out of place because of that and it even capitalized on it, making its entries a string of challenges which ramp up in difficulty, culminating with Durlag's Tower and Aec'Letec.

 

[Sizzle]

BG2 wasn't interesting because of the Bhaalspawn bits, it was interesting because of the sheer number of quests, items, spells and general content it provided.

Wrong. The player being a bhaalspawn is a driving force during both games, it informs the player of his place in the world and dictate how he interacts with the powerful of the land. Being the bhaalspawn was a good hook that got taken advantage of fully.
Being a watcher was retarded, the game would have been pretty much exactly the same without that element. It doesnt work even as an excuse to get you going, it does fucking nothing.
This shit even even worth arguing over.

I would argue that it is exactly the reverse. Apart from the main story portions of the game, you being a Bhaalspawn is almost entirely irrelevant - you could have been any high-level adventurer instead.

In PoE, as badly as it was done most of the time, you being a Watcher does come into play in many quests.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

so there was this one time when i was mildly intoxicated and this girl is flashing her cooch, like srsly bro she aint wearning no knickers

and imma all like nice curtains fam

and that was that

 

[Lacrymas]

In PoE, as badly as it was done most of the time, you being a Watcher does come into play in many quests.

I'd say that was one of its problems. While BG1 is very unstructured, relying on the player's own curiosity to explore the world (the character doesn't have a motivation to do side quests at all), it worked just because the Bhaalspawn thing was in the background, unrelated to whatever it is you are doing at the moment, only being relevant when it's time. PoE, on the other hand, tries to ram the Watcher business down its own throat, suffocating itself by having the narrative incompetently rush you forward while the design is telling you to complete side quests alla the BG1 disconnected vignettes. It's just schizophrenic in the most jarring way possible. It's ironic really, one of the downfalls of the game being one of the very few things they tried to be creative about and not just straight up copy everything else. Not to mention that being a Watcher just isn't interesting at all.

 

[luj1]

There is so much cringe in PoE you need a hazmat suit

 

[Lhynn]

I'd say that was one of its problems. While BG1 is very unstructured, relying on the player's own curiosity to explore the world (the character doesn't have a motivation to do side quests at all), it worked just because the Bhaalspawn thing was in the background, unrelated to whatever it is you are doing at the moment, only being relevant when it's time.

Sort of? it was a secret, you didnt even knew about your heritage. But the entire reason you did everything you did was to survive, and you had to survive due to who you were. Being a bhaalspawn played directly into the game themes.
In BG2 you being a bhaalspawn was a secret to the world, but the quests you got, you did them because narratively you were building up wealth, power and allies to take on irenicus and the entire army of mages that the PC thought were defending spellhold.

PoE, on the other hand, tries to ram the Watcher business down its own throat, suffocating itself by having the narrative incompetently rush you forward while the design is telling you to complete side quests alla the BG1 disconnected vignettes. It's just schizophrenic in the most jarring way possible. It's ironic really, the downfall of the game being one of the very few things they tried to be creative about and not just straight up copy everything else.

Yeah, its crammed in there yet it has no relevance to your motivations (of which you literally have none, the game goes out of its way to ignore you), its the complete opposite to what BG2 did. The astounding lack of understanding of the games they were trying to evoke and how they worked is pretty insane.

 

[Sizzle]

In PoE, as badly as it was done most of the time, you being a Watcher does come into play in many quests.

I'd say that was one of its problems. While BG1 is very unstructured, relying on the player's own curiosity to explore the world (the character doesn't have a motivation to do side quests at all), it worked just because the Bhaalspawn thing was in the background, unrelated to whatever it is you are doing at the moment, only being relevant when it's time. PoE, on the other hand, tries to ram the Watcher business down its own throat, suffocating itself by having the narrative incompetently rush you forward while the design is telling you to complete side quests alla the BG1 disconnected vignettes. It's just schizophrenic in the most jarring way possible. It's ironic really, one of the downfalls of the game being one of the very few things they tried to be creative about and not just straight up copy everything else. Not to mention that being a Watcher just isn't interesting at all.

Like you said, BG1 was very simple and elegant in its primary motivation, and that's exactly why it worked so well.

In PoE, they tried to give you greater urgency, but with a plot that was so convoluted, so poorly thought out and overwritten, it completely backfired.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sort of? it was a secret, you didnt even knew about your heritage. But the entire reason you did everything you did was to survive, and you had to survive due to who you were.

Yeah, but you went to the Nashkel Mines on your own accord, either on the behest of Khalid and Jaheira or Xzar and Montaron, it wasn't connected to your survival, quite the opposite. I suppose you can spin it and say that the allies you got granted you better chances of survival and humoring their request was the only way to make them stay and protect you, but it's flimsy.

In PoE, they tried to give you greater urgency, but with a plot that was so convoluted, so poorly thought out and overwritten, it completely backfired.

I wouldn't say PoE has a plot, it has a story, as in the most dry definition of "something happens after another thing", but it's so chaotic and random that it fails to produce a plot.

 

[Lhynn]

I wouldn't say PoE has a plot, it has a story, as in the most dry definition of "something happens after another thing", but it's so chaotic and random that it fails to produce a plot.

Actually ended up in nashkel because i wanted to go to the carnival.
All roads led you south. The iron crisis in itself screamed adventure and riches. The entrance to baldurs gate was closed due to the crisis and the bandits, and the adventuring life was kind of your only way to get by, with murderers hot on your trail everywhere you went.
Also the most survivable road was due south, north, and east were suicidal.
These are basic motivations, but they are effective, to keep the player moving.

 

[Janise]

Anything Spiderwebs has produced is utter vomit trash. From gameplay to anything. And people who buy that military grade shovelshitware are absolutely autistic and by definition cant have a valid opinion on anything.
How often do you play a dungen crawler with broken spells, broken ai, broken builds, ugly as sin and think to yourself - moar?

 

[Lacrymas]

Actually ended up in nashkel because i wanted to go to the carnival.
All roads led you south. The iron crisis in itself screamed adventure and riches. The entrance to baldurs gate was closed due to the crisis and the bandits, and the adventuring life was kind of your only way to get by, with murderers hot on your trail everywhere you went.
Also the most survivable road was due south, north, and east were suicidal.
These are basic motivations, but they are effective, to keep the player moving.

Yeah, the game did a good job of leading you south, there was nowhere else to go, but that was done with the game mechanics (everything beyond south will kill you) and on the insistence of the first 4 companions you run into besides Imoen. The Iron Crisis is the thing that is happening right now, affecting pretty much everything, it's logical that you are going to be swept up in it even without your companions AND it still manages to frame it as a voluntary thing the character does on their own accord. Compare that to PoE, where literally nothing is happening for you to be a part of or have interest in, the only noteworthy thing being the soulless children that somehow end up irrelevant in the grand scheme of things AND your character fundamentally having no interest in it even at the ending, you "fixing it" is an incidental byproduct of whatever it is you're doing. There is no motivation, no plot, no drama, you have to be funneled to people who advance the story because it's not logical otherwise, Thaos is the weakest antagonist in a very long time, being such simply by chance and happenstance rather than motivation, he's not even connected to you trying to "cure yourself" from the Watcher symptoms (I.e. What is the plot? What are we doing here?); etc. etc. All of that while trying to do side quests which are totally irrelevant to any of this. It's incredibly cringe-y.

 

[Sizzle]

Thaos is the weakest antagonist in a very long time, being such simply by chance and happenstance rather than motivation, he's not even connected to you trying to "cure yourself" from the Watcher symptoms (I.e. What is the plot? What are we doing here?); etc. etc.

That's the thing about him - he's not even really an antagonist. An antagonist is supposed to be in direct opposition to the protagonist, he's supposed to be a threat that hinders him.

But with Thaos, all he does is inadvertently set off an event that you get caught in, and then you spend the rest of the game chasing after him. For much of it, he's not even aware that you exist. And when he does learn of you, he doesn't take any aggressive action against you. Before the very end of the game, he attacks you only once (in the Sanitarium), and not even personally but by proxy.

Sarevok and Irenicus are better antagonists because they are more involved in the story. Both are, even when off-screen, ever-present factors, constantly scheming and plotting against you. And you get to fight Irenicus several times over the course of the game, and every time he's stronger, mirroring the power growth your PC is also experiencing.

 

[Bonerbill]

I'm glad he wasn't there in the story that much. I'm kind of sick of the cliche where we always have one single bad guy who always shows up like some Saturday morning cartoon villain. I like PoE (and Witcher 3) approach where the story isn't ultimately about chasing after some single antagonist. In fact, my character didn't see him as an enemy because I didn't really care about the people of Dyrwood. I just wanted him to cure my "sickness."

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not a problem if a story doesn't have an antagonist, in most Greek tragedies the "antagonist" is the fatal flaw within the protagonist or them trying to fight against fate (like Oedipus). It could've worked if the story was ONLY about trying to cure yourself from the Watcher afflictions, there would be no rush because you have no idea what to do or where to go, at first anyway, so doing side quests will be more natural, but there's the soulless children and Thaos in there. And that's only the "main" narrative, we have all the other smaller, unavoidable things, like the factions, Caed Nua, the gods etc. They muddy the waters so much that it's not clear what the story is about, that's one of the reasons there is no plot, there is no logical connection between elements of the story, i.e. no cause and effect. The only cause and effect is you being funneled to different NPCs, which is incredibly weak, because the protagonist doesn't have agency in his own story.

 

[Sizzle]

Mostly agree with you, but considering they tried to make an IE-like game (with BG as the biggest inspiration) - I think there really should have been a strong, central antagonist.

I wrote about this before, but I think Thaos would have been a better antagonist if you encountered and opposed him in every incarnation, not just the one several thousand years ago.

There's even a line of dialogue (with the Twin Elms Delemgans) suggesting this was planned at one stage (they probably forgot to edit that out).

This would have given you a stronger motivation to chase after him - you've finally got the necessary power to defeat him, and can break the circle - and would have made the entire thing seem more PS:T/MoTB-y.

 

[Lacrymas]

I proposed once that the flashbacks with Thaos should've been playable, to make them more personal. I think they tried to copy BG1's story structure -> You find yourself not knowing what you are (Bhaalspawn/Watcher) or where to go, a central conflict (Iron Crisis/Hollowborn Crisis) sweeps you up and introduces you to your antagonist (Sarevok/Thaos), you go around trying to get to a big city (Baldur's Gate/Defiance Bay), a political struggle (Iron Throne/Animancy) and coup makes itself apparent (Sarevok trying to kill the dukes/Thaos killing the duc), you go around trying to catch the antagonist (Thieves' Maze/Sun in Shadow). All the while unrelated adventures happen. The execution differs greatly, however, and PoE struggles with coming up with a plot and making the characters in it relevant. It tries to focus too much on each premise, but since it's simultaneously rushed and overwritten none of them can be given a spotlight, so the narrative jumps from one to the other without any precedents.

There is no problem with each of these premises or whether there's an antagonist or not. It would've turned out better had the story been focused on one thing, the game is already bursting at the seams by trying to do too much with a limited budget and time constraint. They could've interconnected everything better, but that would require either more time/money or cutting of different content, like Twin Elms. Which I wouldn't have been opposed to tbh, Twin Elms feels like and is an afterthought. There is an extra act which BG1 doesn't have and could've been cut without the game losing anything, and even gaining something. If one game could benefit enormously from an EE, it's PoE, I kinda hope they do do this at one point.

 

[Sizzle]

I proposed once that the flashbacks with Thaos should've been playable, to make them more personal.

Even if that were the case, it still would have been something that didn't happen to your character, but someone who lived and died millennia ago.

That was the main reason why it failed to convey any emotion - a past incarnation did something stupid, and Thaos was there. And now, somehow, you feel soul guilt over that. Considering you must have been reincarnated several dozens, if not hundreds, of times after that, I really doubt that betraying your friend was the worst thing you've ever done in all that time.

Which I wouldn't have been opposed to tbh, Twin Elms feels and is an afterthought.

The Thos parts - yes, I agree. But TE itself had some of the better quests in the game.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, of course, the flashbacks with Thaos are something someone did in the past. Soul guilt tripping the player doesn't work and it's even parodical.

The Thos parts - yes, I agree. But TE itself had some of the better quests in the game.

They could've rearranged the side quests somewhere else, Defiance Bay is lifeless, so why not there? And I'm saying this in relation to the main storyline, it would've been better for it had the act in which TE is not existed. There is a lot of things that can be trimmed down to make room for more awesome stuff, i.e. PoE EE when.

 

[Sizzle]

Oh, of course, the flashbacks with Thaos are something someone did in the past. Soul guilt tripping the player doesn't work and it's even parodical.

I hated it right off the bat - why should I care what this cult sycophant loser did? So poorly thought out.

The Thos parts - yes, I agree. But TE itself had some of the better quests in the game.

They could've rearranged the side quests somewhere else, Defiance Bay is lifeless, so why not there? And I'm saying this in relation to the main storyline, it would've been better for it had the act in which TE is not existed. There is a lot of things that can be trimmed down to make room for more awesome stuff, i.e. PoE EE when.

I primarily liked the TE quests because they were better integrated and fitting to that city - a tribal feud over who killed a great beast, a superstitious Orlan who thinks that eating birds will allow him to sing like one, sacrificing an infant to empower an aging chieftain, etc. To say nothing of the Gods' quests.

Unlike Defiance Bay quests, which really varied in quality, here they took the time and thought to make use of that bloated lore, and the quests ended up being more interesting and involved for it.

 

[Lacrymas]

I primarily liked the TE quests because they were better integrated and fitting to that city - a tribal feud over who killed a great beast, a superstitious Orlan who thinks that eating birds will allow him to sing like one, sacrificing an infant to empower an aging chieftain, etc. To say nothing of the Gods' quests.

Unlike Defiance Bay quests, which really varied in quality, here they took the time and thought to make use of that bloated lore, and the quests ended up being more interesting and involved for it.

Then cut out Defiance Bay. I agree that Twin Elms has more character than DB. Flesh out the factions in TE more, make it bigger and with more side quests, done deal.

 

[gaussgunner]

Neither area is really good. You're just running errands, only making the choice of which faction's ass to kiss, then Thaos sweeps in and brings Defiance Bay to a tidy conclusion. Same thing in Twin Elms, you jump down the well for the boss battle. Everything else is just grinding.

 

[Sizzle]

I primarily liked the TE quests because they were better integrated and fitting to that city - a tribal feud over who killed a great beast, a superstitious Orlan who thinks that eating birds will allow him to sing like one, sacrificing an infant to empower an aging chieftain, etc. To say nothing of the Gods' quests.

Unlike Defiance Bay quests, which really varied in quality, here they took the time and thought to make use of that bloated lore, and the quests ended up being more interesting and involved for it.

Then cut out Defiance Bay. I agree that Twin Elms has more character than DB. Flesh out the factions in TE more, make it bigger and with more side quests, done deal.

I also would have preferred if TE swapped sizes and content ratio with DB. But there was little chance of that, DB was more like Baldur's Gate (the city), and they wanted to play it safe.

 

[Iznaliu]

I primarily liked the TE quests because they were better integrated and fitting to that city

I actually think it's a problem if quests are too "stereotypical" and don't show there is much to a city beyond a design document. Defiance Bay was better since you got the feeling that things were going on without you.