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Jeff Vogel vs Pillars of Eternity

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...you can't get away from the principle ... of self advancement or an excuse that requires it.
Which is exactly what Josh tries to do with removing xp for combat.

The core trope of crpgs, as you pointed out, is murdering and looting for xp and treasure all for the sake of self advancement. Remove the xp for killing self advancement part and the game becomes so much more unplayable.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
All of that comes down to the main quest and central themes/problems the game revolves around, which is that there are no answers to the great questions in life because it seems life is meaningless, so much to the point that people created a pantheon of gods to try to fill in the aching existential wound.

It's not like there isn't a similar/exact same school of thought in real life, while people still exist and haven't committed mass suicide. However, nihilism isn't the theme of PoE, PoE doesn't have a theme because it doesn't have a plot, let alone a coherent one which underlines a philosophical understanding of life. That sounds comical in the context of PoE. Whatever Thaos fantasizes and illudes about in his mind is his problem, not to mention that he doesn't think life is meaningless, at least not his own. He thinks his purpose is to keep some "great secret" at all cost. I've heard some people say that "unanswered questions" are the theme of PoE, but I've argued that the only unanswered question is Eder's and arguably Kana's. Even if, somehow, people manage to find more, the theme can't be unanswered questions because the ramifications of such aren't explored, they just shrug and go "oh, well, better luck next time". Maybe, at the most, with a lot of creativity and hyperinterpretation, you can say that "the search for answers" is a main goal for a lot of the people in the story.


Which is exactly what Josh tries to do with removing xp for combat.

There is xp for combat, it's just called "filling the bestiary".

To join in the other discussion about knight-errants - I don't think it matters whether adventuring is realistic or not, it obviously isn't. It's a fabrication concocted by troubadours and poets, much like the modern conception of "soul mates" and "romantic love". There is no realistic, sane person who goes around helping random people with their troubles, that's why Don Quixote was written, to show the absurdity of such a situation. RPGs, however, can get away with this because of the xp system and the desire for non-linearity. Yes, some examples are better than others, but it very much depends on the framing of the main quest and whether it permits such going around doing random tasks. These random tasks shouldn't be random, they should still serve some kind of purpose within the whole, that's why art exists as a rationalized construct, to not be random. Otherwise you can just improvise the quests along the way (it feels like they are doing exactly this) and it wouldn't make a lick of difference, and it doesn't. Battle Brothers is a perfect example of this, the quests are literally improvised by the systems and the end goal of the characters is self-advancement and personal wealth. Is Battle Brothers narratively engaging? I wouldn't say so, people don't play it for the story.

EDIT: There's a reason poets and troubadours "romanticized" the adventuring knight seeking the love of the maiden, saving the village, whatever. Apart from it being a more honorable goal in the context of Christianity, it also provides a concrete point to the narrative, "self-advancement" is too vague to work and it requires an arbitrary stop point. The logic in art isn't exactly the one in real life, it operates on different assumptions. Art can't be, and isn't, about normality. The narrative structure (at least then) requires many different aspects to be accounted for and an end goal is one of them. Freeform and unending narratives have been done in modern literature, but games such as these employ more standard formats.

EDIT2: Here's an interesting homework exercise: What do you think is the ending to PoE? Dealing with Thaos, ending the Hollowborn Crisis or fixing your Watcher symptoms? Or, if you prefer, let's format the question this way - which of these three, if not all, end points can PoE go without?
 
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gaussgunner

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Manager? He's one guy working to support a family, not one employee amongst many in a company.

I don't like the way he's taken his games, especially the remaking antics, but I can see why and understand - Making great games pales in comparison to providing for his family in a way only a self-employed parent could understand.

I think it's also behind his "old and tired" shtick.

Vogel manages business functions, a few freelance artists, and his own time. That's substantial. In fact it's probably easier to be a manager at a bigger studio where you're not bogged down in all aspects of development. Self-discipline is tough when you're solo.

I'm not interested in playing his sequels but I totally understand the remakes. It takes a few years to make a new rpg, he needs income every year, and he has these old games that need updating for modern computers. If people want to buy them, good for him. Better than going to Kickstarter to fund new games.
 

J1M

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The problems described in this thread are in part why I like the use of a narrator.

In addition the standard benefits, it is also something that can be easily edited at the end of production to give context or cover for weaknesses in other areas.
 

Beastro

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EDIT2: Here's an interesting homework exercise: What do you think is the ending to PoE? Dealing with Thaos, ending the Hollowborn Crisis or fixing your Watcher symptoms? Or, if you prefer, let's format the question this way - which of these three, if not all, end points can PoE go without?

To tie into what you said about people's opinion of "unanswered questions" being thought of as the central theme when it doesn't fully fit, another is about how time keeps going on no matter what happens, be it the colonization of Dyrewood in centuries past what Thaos' people did, successfully or not, what the Hollowborn Crisis did to Dyrewood, right down you being a Watcher. That also ties into your quip about the companion quests and their reaction to them.

With that said it's still not satisfying to play a game for. I think that's why the quest to stop Raedric stands out in so many people's minds, it's the only one with real results that comes with compelling reasons to fight the bastard for. Now some could chalk that up to the low, simple demands of most players, they just want a quest laid out to stop some bad happening and have a nice villain to oppose, but to me it goes deeper than that where many genuinely do seek deeper, more thoughtful and complex plots in their games, they just want them to "click", and beyond the opening of the game where you get the most reactivity to your character choices, PoE does not click.

The problems described in this thread are in part why I like the use of a narrator.

In addition the standard benefits, it is also something that can be easily edited at the end of production to give context or cover for weaknesses in other areas.

Narrators come with their own heap of problems if they're not done right, and they really have to be done right or else you feel like your being walked through a story like a child.
 

Sizzle

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EDIT2: Here's an interesting homework exercise: What do you think is the ending to PoE? Dealing with Thaos, ending the Hollowborn Crisis or fixing your Watcher symptoms?

Confronting Thaos. The Hollowborn Crisis is an incidental, localized affair you may not even care about (and they didn't do a particularly good job of making you care). And I'm not even sure if we fixed our Watcher symptoms, because the end was more about coming to terms with what you did in a reincarnation several millennia ago (another stupid idea).

Or, if you prefer, let's format the question this way - which of these three, if not all, end points can PoE go without?

The way they framed the game - apart from curing your Watcher problems (and, as I've understood it, you've mastered (or on your way to master them - PoE2 will almost definitely involve their evolution), not fixed them), all three are needed to make some thematic sense.

Out of all of these, maybe the HC is superflous (and I wouldn't even use that word - more like badly thought out and implemented), but the game lacks proper player motivation and story agency as it is without removing other elements from it.
 

Beastro

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And I'm not even sure if we fixed our Watcher symptoms, because the end was more about coming to terms with what you did in a reincarnation several millennia ago (another stupid idea).

You don't.

You talk to the old guy at the end of the first act, find out it's permanent and you're mind will eventually degenerate as his did.

After that you dick around continuing to follow Thaos for no real good reason, not even revenge, until your Watcherness starts bringing up the past lives shit, or at least it felt that way to me.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Ah, I had forgotten you don't actually fix your afflictions. Change that to "coming to terms with past lives". I'd argue that the ending is dealing with Thaos, with a huge asterisk on the side. I asked this question because it answers, or reveals, another one - what does PoE's story build towards? The asterisk on my answer is because Thaos is the most talked about thing and the most things happening around in the main story, not that it's logical for you to go deal with him. Thaos' involvement in the Hollowborn Crisis is not only incidental, but contrived and arbitrary, it exists only because the journal names the main quest as "The Hollowing of the Dyrwood". The past lives thing is just stupid and it doesn't even have a contrived reason to be in the game, you don't find Thaos because of those flashbacks, they reveal nothing of importance to anyone. I would've ended the story only with the eventual fate of Thaos, the Hollowborn Crisis (the ending slides mention that it's spreading to more landmass, maybe even because of Thaos' death) and/or your Watcher afflictions (ending slide saying the migraines and insomnia are getting worse) could've been the sequel hook instead of the really dumb "Eothas returns" thing.
 
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Beastro

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instead of the really dumb "Eothas returns" thing.

Wut?

I quit right before the end, I just couldn't be bothered to finish the game, but if that does happen it'll ruin one of the most original things in the PoE world that I've already covered above in this thread.

I would've ended the story only with the eventual fate of Thaos, the Hollowborn Crisis and/or your Watcher afflictions could've been the sequel hook

That meshes with much of what others have said I've seen repeated, that the game should have focused on dealing with Raedric. They should have fiddled and made his position of power in Dyrewood greater and so the threat he represents greater.
 

ilitarist

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Yep, the main story copies BG2 by building up Thaos as an Irenicus figure. I was intrigued at the beginning with a flashback to a past life where you've been a friend of Thaos. It would probably be better if those flashbacks followed you throught the game. However IIRC you only get them again in Act 3 and by that point I was going on rails not really remembering why I chase Thaos. There was a moment when you see him in Asylum but that talk wasn't really memorable, all I gather is you tell him to stop and he says no.

Seems like lack of focus. Reliving memories of that friend of Thaos could be interesting and Planescape-ish, and I liked how you have some nice choices in defining past life relations to Elven atheist gal. Expansion story is no less complex but is much more focused: you know bad stuff is coming, you have to investigate and loot.
 

Lacrymas

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Wut?

I quit right before the end, I just couldn't be bothered to finish the game, but if that does happen it'll ruin one of the most original things in the PoE world that I've already covered above in this thread.

It isn't mentioned in PoE1, it's the premise of PoE2 they revealed during the Fig campaign. Yes, it's stupid and it devalues the Godhammer bomb and the sacrifices of the people involved, practically the only interesting thing that has happened in this setting.

That meshes with much of what others have said I've seen repeated, that the game should have focused on dealing with Raedric. They should have fiddled and made his position of power in Dyrewood greater and so the threat he represents greater.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea, but it doesn't require you to be a Watcher. The Watcher thing seems to be dragging the whole thing down the more you think about it. I know they tried to do another "Bhaalspawn saga", but it's lame.


Seems like lack of focus. Reliving memories of that friend of Thaos could be interesting and Planescape-ish, and I liked how you have some nice choices in defining past life relations to Elven atheist gal. Expansion story is no less complex but is much more focused: you know bad stuff is coming, you have to investigate and loot.

The flashbacks could've been used to develop Thaos as a character, rather than trying and failing to reveal a personal connection. They could've dropped hints that what he is doing is actually trying to stop the Hollowborn Crisis from infecting the whole world and he thought by empowering Woedica (by some other means) that that could be achieved. There is so much more that could've been done with the whole thing, but alas.
 

Beastro

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Yep, the main story copies BG2 by building up Thaos as an Irenicus figure. I was intrigued at the beginning with a flashback to a past life where you've been a friend of Thaos. It would probably be better if those flashbacks followed you throught the game. However IIRC you only get them again in Act 3 and by that point I was going on rails not really remembering why I chase Thaos. There was a moment when you see him in Asylum but that talk wasn't really memorable, all I gather is you tell him to stop and he says no.

I don't recall any happening before the ones at the end of act 2, when you find Thaos' groups lair under Defiance Bay and head in as your party thinks it's their main base or something. It stuck out to me as I started wondering where the hell this came from out fo the blue as I rolled my eyes through the dialogue realizing the past life chick was your run of the mill revolutionary trying to liberate everyone from the status quo and I'm really fucking sick of that kind of hero, it's been shoved in my face faaaaar too much since I was a kid, ironically becoming something of the default hero everyone goes for in stories now.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea, but it doesn't require you to be a Watcher. The Watcher thing seems to be dragging the whole thing down the more you think about it. I know they tried to do another "Bhaalspawn saga", but it's lame.

A way could be found to get it involved. It would be a good reason to force them to involve the Watcher powers more in the damn game. The opening has you running around seeing the dead all over doing stuff and leaves you thinking this is going to dominate the game, then it largely vanishes until the past life stuff at the end of act 2 pops up, as far I as I recall.

BG 1/2 are on my to do list so the impact of that saga is lost on me.
 
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FreeKaner

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You know what would be cool mechanically? Getting "wounds" related to your watcher affliction, especially when you use your watcher abilities (those could be made much more stronger as a result), which you can get rid of by resting. They could be just small minus stats at the start of game but getting stronger like confusion if you reach a certain amount of "wounds" and what not. It could even be "countered" by party member's immunities and skills.
 

J1M

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It looks like at this point everyone is willing to admit that PoE sold because it was marketed as BG3, and the story/setting had nothing to do with it? Hurrah.
 

ilitarist

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It looks like at this point everyone is willing to admit that PoE sold because it was marketed as BG3, and the story/setting had nothing to do with it? Hurrah.

It's still a great game. It has problems with narrative that Jeff has highlighted by gameplay-wise it's better than BG series. The plot is also good enough if overexplained in wrong places - but, again, good plot in a videogame is still an exception.
 

Lacrymas

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gameplay-wise it's better than BG series.

Hold your horses. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will disagree, especially Sensuki. I can't comment post 1.0 because I can't force myself to replay it, but it was nowhere near BG at launch.
 

ilitarist

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Well yeah, it's a matter of opinion partly. 3.0 was better than 1.0, especially with proper monster immunities and high level content, but not that better. And I don't really like infinity engine system and DnD in general - always felt it was too much about learning rules and too little about mastering them.
 

Lacrymas

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It looks like at this point everyone is willing to admit that PoE sold because it was marketed as BG3, and the story/setting had nothing to do with it? Hurrah.

Well, does anyone think that it sold because of the story and setting? I backed the Kickstarter because it was an isometric RPG by Obsidian, oh how naive I was to think that was enough. I didn't expect amazing gameplay, but I did think they would deliver an interesting story that will compensate (kinda like all their other games), but alas.


Well yeah, it's a matter of opinion partly. 3.0 was better than 1.0, especially with proper monster immunities and high level content, but not that better. And I don't really like infinity engine system and DnD in general - always felt it was too much about learning rules and too little about mastering them.

They shot themselves in the foot by going up to 16th level in the first game, now necessitating a power reboot, which shoots them in the other foot because the leveling speed will be retardedly fast and bananas due to the new level cap of 20. BG1 went up to 10ish depending on the class, which was much more manageable. I suppose if PoE2 is as big as BG2 it could be more controlled in the leveling speed, but I doubt it. Of course the level range wasn't what was wrong with the gameplay, but it was a contributing factor.
 

J1M

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Well yeah, it's a matter of opinion partly. 3.0 was better than 1.0, especially with proper monster immunities and high level content, but not that better. And I don't really like infinity engine system and DnD in general - always felt it was too much about learning rules and too little about mastering them.
What is "3.0"? I don't recall that being part of the game when I played it the only time I was going to play it at release. Is it the product of player feedback? Given the closed beta period, one would expect that this would be present at launch.

If the designers didn't have a clear vision, or weren't able to implement their vision that really only adds to the arguments for using an existing ruleset.
 

gaussgunner

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It looks like at this point everyone is willing to admit that PoE sold because it was marketed as BG3, and the story/setting had nothing to do with it? Hurrah.
I guess so, except for Thaos being pointlessly imitative of Irenicus (^^ according to ilitarist).
I played it instead of BG2 for the same reason someone might play Avadon instead of Exile - a more modern and hopefully :lol: better game.

Hmmm, PoE 3.0 must be a 2017 or late 2016 update. I have 2.13 on my hard drive.
 

Sizzle

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gameplay-wise it's better than BG series.

Hold your horses. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will disagree, especially Sensuki.

It's been well established that Sensuki's IE play style represents perhaps 2% of the people who've enjoyed those games, so... his brand of autism isn't an especially compelling argument for most.

Sensuki only played the game (v1.0) up until the beginning of Act II or so.

I respect the effort he put in trying to make the game better while it was still in beta, but making him out to be some sort of ultimate PoE expert is silly.
 

Quillon

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So what does "pulling a sensuki" mean? I only remember him from superficially browsing Obs forums during PoE1 development. Did flew to California and attempt assassinations? Or is there a gold mine of melt down posts in the depths of the codex?
 

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