Anime JRPG combat vs western blobber style combat - Why all the hate?

[thexsa]

Oh, I misunderstood your original post. I though you meant a situation where a golden weapon would be more effective against silver armor, silver weapon > iron, iron > gold. Yeah, reading is hard.

What you described with material progression is logical to me, I don't see why it's a bad system. Steel IS indeed better than iron AND more expensive, so it is a higher tier material, just like in real life. Or do I have 0 concept of how metals wok in real life?

Also what is so bad with mythril, ebony, glass, daedric gear in TES? If they fit the game world then it's enough for me to not mind it.

Why does games need random item progression that makes no sense all the time? I am more in favour for "the right tool for the right job"-mindset. Want to fight a fire-demon? Make sure you come equipped with ice-enchanted weapons and enchantments that protect against fire. Don't have access to a mage? Tough luck, shitface. Do you think a regular wannabee Conan can beat a creature of magical fire? Lazy game design is all it is when all that is required to get to the next stage is find marginally better equipment, because of some retarded "every class should be able to tackle every problem"-mindset.

And on the TES materials, imo they don't really fit the world more so than they just made random shit up to create weapons that look cool, and totally impractical. Arguing over game design when it comes to TES is pretty pointless though.

I will however say that they had a superb opportunity to make enchanting matter a lot more than it does. Morrowind was on the right track with enchanting, but then someone took a spoon to the brain of every person with a say at Bethesda.

 

[Damned Registrations]

So now I have to start up a Tales of Phantasia playthrough as well as Elona and SNES Dragon Quest 3. Fuck this thread. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Speaking of Elona; dat tutorial. It doesn't account for different classes, so I'm derping around trying to kill blobs with my staff, doing no damage, instead of casting my spells. I've become like one of the play testers that didn't go upstairs in Dishonored because a guard said they couldn't.

The guy giving you the tutorial is also a dick. He makes you waste a valuable identify scroll and eat the corpse of a beggar, and waste a scroll of remove curse too.

The best part is, the tutorial is wildly inadequate for how complex and random the game is. Let me know when you start getting mutated or become pregnant with alienspawn.

 

[APGunner]

Why does games need random item progression that makes no sense all the time?

Games need linear progression of items to make the player feel like his character has really grown in power, also it varies the way your character looks throughout the game. Even if the game is 100% level scaled and fights don't get any harder/easier, gear progression will keep a lot players...playing.

I am more in favour for "the right tool for the right job"-mindset. Want to fight a fire-demon? Make sure you come equipped with ice-enchanted weapons and enchantments that protect against fire. Don't have access to a mage? Tough luck, shitface. Do you think a regular wannabee Conan can beat a creature of magical fire? Lazy game design is all it is when all that is required to get to the next stage is find marginally better equipment, because of some retarded "every class should be able to tackle every problem"-mindset.

Do you really think that hard counters are good game design?
Is the game "fun" when you can't complete it because you have sub-optimal party composition?
Also, not sure about wannabe Conans, but Conan himself has dealt with a lot of magical stuff because he was speshul and had plot armor, do you consider it lazy writing?

And on the TES materials, imo they don't really fit the world more so than they just made random shit up to create weapons that look cool, and totally impractical. Arguing over game design when it comes to TES is pretty pointless though.

They fit the lore perfectly. In Morrowind you had ebony mines and glass mines, cities near those mines that specialised on crafting/trading items from these materials. Who cares if fear looks impractical in a fantasty world.

I will however say that they had a superb opportunity to make enchanting matter a lot more than it does. Morrowind was on the right track with enchanting, but then someone took a spoon to the brain of every person with a say at Bethesda.

Agreed.

 

[Nutmeg]

Games need linear progression of items to make the player feel like his character has really grown in power, also it varies the way your character looks throughout the game. Even if the game is 100% level scaled and fights don't get any harder/easier, gear progression will keep a lot players...playing.

Which is a Bad Thing. It debases games to something not unlike pornography or slot machines.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Do you really think that hard counters are good game design?
Is the game "fun" when you can't complete it because you have sub-optimal party composition?

Yes and yes.

Let me ask you something too:
Do you think that everything hits everything is good game design?
Is the game fun when you can do everything no matter how stupidly you build your characters?

 

[APGunner]

Let me ask you something too:
Do you think that everything hits everything is good game design?

Let's take werewolves and silver weapons for example. If I hit a werewolf with a huge iron axe, then it should take 0 damage? Ok, maybe I'm a dumbass and didn't do research on this enemy type, but I still should do SOME damage to it. I'm not completely against counters, just against stuff that mitigates 100% of damage from certain sources. Damage mitigation up to 90%, or having a certain damage threshold when the attack is so strong that it can't be just shrugged off by the enemy like it's nothing (breaking werewolf's limbs by a giant iron warhammer), is fine by my "standards".

Is the game fun when you can do everything no matter how stupidly you build your characters?

Why even give players the ability to have sub-optimal builds? Is a hypothetical rpg system that restricts players from building their characters stupidly, OR allows them to choose only from viable options, bad? And yeah, I find games to be fun when I can choose the options that look cool/fun to me, without caring about viability of chosen option.

 

[Nutmeg]

APGunner,

Have you ever played, say, Civilization? What happens if you make a sub-optimal civilization "build"? You lose. That's an important part of adversarial games, winners and losers or at least some form of ranking or scoring.

 

[APGunner]

APGunner,
Have you ever played, say, Civilization? What happens if you make a sub-optimal civilization "build"? You lose. That's an important part of adversarial games, winners and losers or at least some form of ranking or scoring.

Yeah, in strategy games stuff like build order/counterbuild is very important and part of the fun. In my previous post I meant exclusively single-player RPGs.

 

[Gerrard]

If your design offers the player options to choose which are always bad, then it's not any different from those choices not being there, and your design is shit. See for example at least half of the perks in Fallouts.

Also, Japanese people don't have forums

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've read today, congratulations. I don't think anyone should care what you think or say about anything related to Japan, because it's painfully obvious you don't know anything about it.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Games need linear progression of items to make the player feel like his character has really grown in power, also it varies the way your character looks throughout the game. Even if the game is 100% level scaled and fights don't get any harder/easier, gear progression will keep a lot players...playing.

Which is a Bad Thing. It debases games to something not unlike pornography or slot machines.

Or music or dancing?

Enjoyable things for their own sake aren't a Bad Thing. The only real problem with treadmill games is that if they're not concealed well enough, you can realize that the 'progress' is illusionary and you won't enjoy it any more. Well, that and the fact that it's not everyone's cup of tea. Some people get tired of progression, and would rather see others failing to do what they can do (multiplayer/challenge based games) or simply want to see something novel. There's nothing inherently more noble about wanting to see an original idea or image or defeating enemies.

 

[Karellen]

I am more in favour for "the right tool for the right job"-mindset. Want to fight a fire-demon? Make sure you come equipped with ice-enchanted weapons and enchantments that protect against fire. Don't have access to a mage? Tough luck, shitface. Do you think a regular wannabee Conan can beat a creature of magical fire? Lazy game design is all it is when all that is required to get to the next stage is find marginally better equipment, because of some retarded "every class should be able to tackle every problem"-mindset.

Do you really think that hard counters are good game design?
Is the game "fun" when you can't complete it because you have sub-optimal party composition?
Also, not sure about wannabe Conans, but Conan himself has dealt with a lot of magical stuff because he was speshul and had plot armor, do you consider it lazy writing?

There's nothing wrong with hard counters, provided that the game as a whole is structured in a way that it's appropriate. This is very much the case exploration-based games. The basic premise of such games is twofold - first, that you will frequently run into problems in the game that you can't deal with at the time, and two, that the stuff that you need to deal with such problems exist somewhere in the gameworld. Hard, or semi-hard counters are appropriate in exploration-based RPGs because they support this design: it renders the problems somewhat transparent, which makes it possible to figure out a way to overcome it by finding the right tools instead of just grinding, which in turn makes exploration more rewarding because it allows you to strategically look for solutions to specific problems, and because the things you find can lead to a qualitative increase in what you are actually able to do in the gameworld instead of just marginally increasing your DPS.

"But that makes my party build choices less important!" Well, sure it does. But party building, when it's done at the beginning of the game, is a pretty awkward form of gameplay, especially in an exploration-based game. I mean, from a gamist point of view, you're trying to come up with a solution to a problem that hasn't yet been introduced to you using a rule set you aren't yet familiar with, how could that possibly be meaningful gameplay? This is probably the main reason why most character building systems in JRPGs disemphasise the beginning of the game, and instead, as is the case with the Job system in Final Fantasy, gradually increase your options as the game goes on. It becomes part of the toolset you have in your disposal to deal with the problems the game provides, instead of some arbitrary decision that the game has to accommodate.

Of course, if the game isn't actually based on exploration, then hard counters probably aren't appropriate, because there isn't much point in having them except to augment exploration as a high-level design element. But then, if not exploration, what would an RPG be based on?

 

[thexsa]

I am more in favour for "the right tool for the right job"-mindset. Want to fight a fire-demon? Make sure you come equipped with ice-enchanted weapons and enchantments that protect against fire. Don't have access to a mage? Tough luck, shitface. Do you think a regular wannabee Conan can beat a creature of magical fire? Lazy game design is all it is when all that is required to get to the next stage is find marginally better equipment, because of some retarded "every class should be able to tackle every problem"-mindset.

Do you really think that hard counters are good game design?
Is the game "fun" when you can't complete it because you have sub-optimal party composition?
Also, not sure about wannabe Conans, but Conan himself has dealt with a lot of magical stuff because he was speshul and had plot armor, do you consider it lazy writing?

Hard counters is definitely good game design, just don't confuse hard counter with having only ONE counter.
Just some simple examples anyone with a brain could think of would include:
You can kill the fire demon by bombarding it with different forms of Ice/Water magic because hardcounter.
You can kill it by enchanting weaponry to be of ice-type.
You can banish it by finding out how it was summoned and reversing the spell/getting the help of someone else who knows how to banish it.
You can just say fuckit, sneak past it and steal its shit, laugh when it goes on a rampage on any nearby village and then go loot the dumbfuck villagers who thought you would solve their problem for you.

You should however not be able to kill it with a useless partycomp of 6 dwarven assfuckers with 2 handed axes and no magical protection because the game designers doesn't want brainless shitfags to get butthurt.

Good game design also, preferably in a lore-friendly way, tells you several times during the early stages of the game that having a balanced party is very advisable.

 

[APGunner]

Hard counters is definitely good game design, just don't confuse hard counter with having only ONE counter.
Just some simple examples anyone with a brain could think of would include:
You can kill the fire demon by bombarding it with different forms of Ice/Water magic because hardcounter.
You can kill it by enchanting weaponry to be of ice-type.
You can banish it by finding out how it was summoned and reversing the spell/getting the help of someone else who knows how to banish it.
You can just say fuckit, sneak past it and steal its shit, laugh when it goes on a rampage on any nearby village and then go loot the dumbfuck villagers who thought you would solve their problem for you.

Yeah, all these things are good. Another example:
Attack the fire demon with a fire spell. Let's assume that the heat of the spell is too much to handle even for a fire demon. Make the spell do less damage than ice/water spells, sure, but don't make it completely useless.

You should however not be able to kill it with a useless partycomp of 6 dwarven assfuckers with 2 handed axes and no magical protection because the game designers doesn't want brainless shitfags to get butthurt.

If the game is not open-world and has mandatory boss fights where you are basically locked in a room 'till the fight is over, then ANY party composition must be able to kill the boss. Maybe devs will conveniently place a well with holy water around the location of the fire demon or something, but if the fight is mandatory, then it must be winnable.

Good game design also, preferably in a lore-friendly way, tells you several times during the early stages of the game that having a balanced party is very advisable.

Game should force you to pick a party that has good enough composition to beat the game. Restricting the amount of the same class characters can easily solve this problem.

 

[Rake]

I also think that it's not JRPG combat per se, but what usually comes with it - animu art, grind, shitloads of random filler fights and sometimes very limited tactical options.

The reasons i can't stand JRPGs.

 

[Nutmeg]

Damned Registrations,

No, not like music or dancing. Music and dancing doesn't "addict" you (although I have noticed with the short compositions made after the 19th century, listeners (with the means to do so) "skip" from the middle of one composition to the next, as if taking ever stronger "hits"; a truly disgusting state of affairs I refer to as the pornographification of music).

The value of games is that they are an arena for God given reason. A good game educes concentration, analysis, judgement, decision making, problem solving and creativity from its players. Is this a reasonable statement? Is there any other value in a game?

If it is a reasonable statement, and there isn't other value in a game, then there is no place in games for the base tricks discussed.

 

[Rake]

Planescape: Torment is still the best jRPG ever made.

PS:T is both the best WRPG and the best JRPG ever made.

 

[Lyric Suite]

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've read today, congratulations. I don't think anyone should care what you think or say about anything related to Japan, because it's painfully obvious you don't know anything about it.

Context might help:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-consolesdämmerung-is-upon-us.80070/page-192

 

[Gerrard]

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've read today, congratulations. I don't think anyone should care what you think or say about anything related to Japan, because it's painfully obvious you don't know anything about it.

Context might help:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/ps4-wins-the-console-war-against-xboxone-yet-it-is-a-hollow-victory-as-consolesdämmerung-is-upon-us.80070/page-192

Where did the forum thing come from though?

 

[Dorateen]

The best computer role-playing games have first-person perspective exploration. Wizardry, Might & Magic, and the Gold Box series. Hell, even throw in Realms of Arkania if you're a fan of the Dark Eye ruleset.

 

[Lyric Suite]

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've read today, congratulations. I don't think anyone should care what you think or say about anything related to Japan, because it's painfully obvious you don't know anything about it.

Context might help:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/ps4-wins-the-console-war-against-xboxone-yet-it-is-a-hollow-victory-as-consolesdämmerung-is-upon-us.80070/page-192

Where did the forum thing come from though?

Well, if Japanese people don't know what PCs are it stands to reason they don't know what the internet is either trolololo.

I mean, have you met anybody from Japan on the net? I rest my case.

 

[TheGreatOne]

4chan was started in 2003 in the bedroom of a then-15-year-old student from New York City named Christopher Poole, who posts as "moot".[8] Prior to starting 4chan, Poole had been a regular participant on the Something Awful forums.[9] He intended 4chan to be a place to discuss Japanese comics and anime, an American counterpart to the popular Japanese Futaba Channel ("2chan") imageboard

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the influence of 4chan on contemporary "online culture"

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Damn, I love how this is like the reverse equivalent of going to other forums and having people hate WRPGs because of the 2 or 3 games of Fallout 3 and Bioware games that they've played.

Keep bringing this mantra up like every other weeaboo arround here, even if your kind supports every Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest released on Steam and jerk off to Yuna. It's not like we're blind to what you like.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Damn, I love how this is like the reverse equivalent of going to other forums and having people hate WRPGs because of the 2 or 3 games of Fallout 3 and Bioware games that they've played.

Keep bringing this mantra up like every other weeaboo arround here, even if your kind supports every Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest released on Steam and jerk off to Yuna. It's not like we're blind to what you like.

?

Damned Registrations (RPG Codex Console Connoisseur): I can only assume a large number of people (at least 11 apparently) haven't even played console RPGs before the PSX era, or played less than 10 console RPGs ever. First of all, the combat was tedious as hell, since just like FF8, everything was vastly over animated and every combat had to include panning around the backdrop a while. Characters didn't even feel that different since although they had unique skills, almost all of these skills were utterly useless. They were also cartoony and goofy as hell, which killed the mood. Steiner and Quina in particular were huge eyesores (with awful dialogue). Equipment was brought back, but its effects were so minor it felt pointless, which in turn made exploration pointless since there was nothing worthwhile to find. The story was really nonsensical shit that didn't get much explanation and culminated in a boss you've never heard of appearing out of nowhere for no reason. The whole game feels like a tribute to people who liked FF1-6 by people who never played FF1-6.

 

[Keldryn]

Dunno what's worse though, kid protagonists everywhere or the retarded amount of SJW's in western AAA RPG's.

The second one is worse. Much worse. The first may be annoying, but can be overlooked.

 

[Ninjerk]

Everyone has been a kid after all