Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Just completed Dragon Age: Origins

Discussion in 'BioWare Corporation' started by PorkyThePaladin, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. Lostpleb Educated

    Lostpleb
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    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a level of abstraction that has to be respected'. The short sword is a direct descendant of the dagger, so it could be that the story of Dragon Age is happening right in the middle of that transition when the blades were still being elongated. Or, it could simply be that the devs meant for daggers and short swords to be part of the same fighting style, much like certain weapon proficiencies were arbitrarily grouped together in the Infinity Engine games.

    Having your swing blocked by a wall is one of the most embarrassing fails that can happen for sure. :P

    As for the viability of using a long sword with a shield, that was actually a lot less practical than many of the RPGs that we play would have us believe. Most of the documentation that we have about medieval combat points us to three commonly used long sword styles;

    -Half-sword, which was one hand on the hilt and one hand gripping the blade (or even two hands gripping the blade so that the pommel could be used to kill!)
    -Two-handed, which was what most long swords were designed for, since the main difference between a short and a long sword was the length of the hilt.
    -Fencing, which left one hand free for grappling techniques.

    Moreover, one-handed long swords were only really superior to short swords when it came to performing a slicing or cutting attack. Those were no longer effective once the plate armor was introduced to the fray, so thrusting became the only way to inflict any kind of lasting damage on your opponent during combat. Against a creature with thick skin or decent armor, the short sword would still be the better option for as long as your other arm is used to hold up a shield, since you will want to rely on quick lightweight thrusts that don't leave you too open for a counter-attack. Your companions are depending on you to hold the line.
     
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  2. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    Short swords are actually much closer to long swords than to daggers. It's just in video games where daggers are usually oversized so they look like small swords. In reality, daggers are something else entirely, used for different purposes. And if you start talking about transitions between things, that just gets silly. The devs of DA:O didnt mean anything, they were just too lazy to do research, and too focused on AWESOME vs realism.

    Umm, you might want to go back to your medieval lessons. Two-handed was barely used at all (there were specialized anti-pike troops with greatswords, the only other time was when your shield broke or you were out on the town as a civilian). Fencing was for duels. Half-swording was a technique, not a style.
     
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  3. Make America Great Again imweasel Arcane

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    Dragon Age: Origins is good but not perfect. Stop being a fag. [​IMG]

     
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  4. Make America Great Again ERYFKRAD Arcane Patron

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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
     
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  5. Absinthe Erudite

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    This great thread has inspired me to play DAO again as a cunning rogue who backstabs people with a giant maul. It works great because the maul adds 125% of str (cunning with lethality) to its hits, while adding more cunning bonuses from assassin and bard specializations (along with the 1 armor penetration per 7 cunning you get). The first few levels are a bit rough though, since you are only investing into the bare minimum of strength and just maxing cunning.
     
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  6. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    See, this is exactly why DA:O is retarded. Sure, some people can enjoy it, but think about what you are saying, MANNN, you are playing a cunning, backstabbing rogue with a giant maul. Cunning, backstabbing, giant maul. Somewhere along the way, the systems design went full retard.
     
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  7. Delterius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I don't see why people's backs should be impervious to two handed weapons.
     
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  8. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    Because if they don't see/feel someone sneaking around them holding a refrigerator, their back, much like their head, is probably made out of iron?
     
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  9. Delterius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Delterius
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    Did you also know you can backstab with the Staff of the Ram?
     
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  10. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    To quote Braveheart, I see your mother has been telling you stories about me. :lol:
     
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  11. Andhaira Arcane

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    I've found DA:O better than PoE, including the combat. It's sad, considering PoE has more spells and is isometric and more partymembers, but the combat system is awful, while DA:O's combat is more bearable. You actually have more control over what's going on.

    DA:O also has far better lore and gameworld info; the codex is fun to read rather than the chorse of slogging through PoE's crap.

    Overall IMO DA:O is a better rpg than PoE; it was also superior to any NWN game by ioware or Obsidian. I really have no idea what made Bioware go with a full on real time combat system after DA:O and turning the series to shit.
     
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  12. Make America Great Again racofer Thread Incliner

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    Best track from DA:O remains this one:

     
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  13. Falksi Educated

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  14. TheHeroOfTime Erudite

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    I know it's hard to imagine otherwise when in the pop culture "backstabbing" always get ilustrated in a ninja, stealthy way with knifes, daggers and stuff like that. But actually you can "backstab" someone by crushing a fucking piano on his head from behind. Is all about getting your objective by surprise, or in a more common way, distracted. And considering a real fight situation in the context of a random DAO battle, when someone is fighting alone against a group is very easy to get surprised by behind just because how hard it is manage a fight against a group. Because, you know, there's no an isometrical camera in real life. Neither we have eyes on the back of our heads.

    At least me.
     
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  15. anvi Learned

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    I am not sure if calling it good is right, I think that is pushing it. But I don't think it was terrible either though, I liked some things, but I had problems with it. At the time I gave it some leeway because I figured they spent all their budget on creating that engine, which was good. I hoped that with DA2 they would use the same engine and spend all their budget on a better game, but instead they went the opposite direction.

    The good bits about DAO are that the graphics looked decent, it no longer was held back by having to be made with a "toolset". Instead it just looked more like a real RPG world instead of a bunch of copy paste tiles and objects. Also the story, characters, and acting was all decent, and usually I hate that stuff. And again, I liked the engine, playing with that 3rd person perspective is fine, and scrolling out to get a high up view of the battlefield was great. Also everything felt slick and worked well, the interface, telling the characters to hold while I scouted ahead, etc.. Technology wise, I think the game was great.

    The problems I have are just with the gameplay. The classes weren't deep enough and there weren't nearly enough spells. In NWN you get to choose from about 20-30 spells each time you level up, DAO doesn't even have that many in the entire game. Spending hours using fireball and arcane blast or whatever, is shit. I respect making your own system, why pay for rights to D&D when you can just make your own that is just as good, and they went half way there, but it just needs far more stuff. I had my main character specced to be a nuker which meant that he only really had cone of cold, and a few other boring spells. Then I had my Morrigan specced as a control mage with enfeeblement type spells, auras, etc. Imo both of those sets of spells should have been on just one of my mage characters. Both sets of spells on my mage and I would have been happy.

    Then comes the healer, I had Wynn as a healer, I think that was the only option... But I didn't like the way healing worked. It was just too dumbed down. I didn't like the auto-healing aura. It should all have been done manually, and the various heals should have been given far earlier. This isn't an MMO where you have to string the players along and make them grind so they keep paying monthly fees, this is a single player RPG, so I should have got a group heal, big heal, regen, and various other stuff far earlier on. Instead I only got a good selection of heals and buffs by about half way through the game. The biggest problem is that I didn't get much else after that... The healer was just boring compared to D&D healers. It needed more heals, and it should have had shapeshifting, cc, and some of the debuffing all combined into one class, and then I would have been happy. Also being able to rez characters mid battle trivialized the whole thing.

    The same pattern is true of all the other classes, they were just too bare bones. They were like a 90s MMO and they should have been like one of the good MMOs where warriors have a hotbar full of stuff to use that is all very tactical. Generally the classes just didn't have enough spells and abilities and that is my main problem with the game.

    Besides the classes though, I hated how regen was so fast outside of combat. It makes mana meaningless, you just nuke the hell out of stuff in every fight, then 3 seconds after the fight ends, everyone is full again. It is no fun when a game goes to the opposite extreme with 1 spell per fight etc. but there is a middle ground where balancing resources is important, and it annoys me that games can't see how obvious that is. The only game I've ever seen do a good job of this is Everquest. After playing that, all RPGs seem like a let down at this. The same goes for loot.

    Besides the classes and combat, my only other gripe is that most of the the quests were boring, the city could have been more interesting, and overall the game was too short. I felt like I was building up to something epic, I did the deep roads etc, killed some dragon for some crafted armor, started finally feeling like I gaining some power, and then we rushed off for a battle, and it ended up being the final battle of the game... I thought there was going to be at least a good 10 hours left after that point, but it just ended.

    I enjoyed some of the bosses, the brood mother etc, I liked how combat worked, real time, fast enough to be exciting yet slow enough to let me make tactical decisions. I never used the character orders thing, I set them all to puppet mode and just controlled them manually and I liked that. It was almost a great game, but those good bits were ruined by the desperate need for better classes and spells, some better quests, more length and depth to the storyline, and some tedious moments like the fade etc.. For me it is 4 ish out of 10, maybe 5. I sometimes wondered if my standards were too high, but then DoS came along and imo it embarrasses the Dragon Age series.
     
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  16. Falksi Educated

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    Anvi, I think it all depends how much gamers are used to playing Baldurs Gate style RPGs. Think some of your criticisms are fair, but also think you're standards are very high too.
    I'd not played a Baldurs Gate style RPG fir around 10 years when I played through Origins, and it was the perfect reintroduction to such games.
    You're point about classes & spells was the opposite for me. I found it a perfect balance of simplicity and depth, allowing me to ease myself into the game, whilst still finding enough depth underneath.
    For me what should of happened is that, as Origins had snagged some casuals, DA:2 should have added said depth you mention and found a nice middle ground between Baldurs Gate & Origins.
     
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  17. boot Learned

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    I never understood the deep roads is shit meme, for me it was the best part. Felt like a real gay warden venturing into the heart of the enemy. On nightmare you can lose some of the fights, and the death animations are still cool.

    This game gets a solid 5/10. For your gay elf sex! I would rather not play it again some of that dialogue is hard to stomach.

    Anyway, as another bro said earlier: my condolences porky. Have some bro love.



    Don't fight it. It's good for what it is.

    P.s I like how after they have gay elf sex they walk away from the campfire in lockstep, with a great sense of gravity. Pushing shit has never been this dramatic.
     
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  18. Starwars Arcane

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    I really liked the mood they had going for the Deep Roads (they had a great "going into the bowels of the earth thing going there) but it became a real slog to play through unfortunately. Orzammar was pretty nice.
     
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  19. kris Arcane

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    It was because you more or less walked a tunnel in which you had the same fight over and over again. You really got that Deja vu feeling.
     
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  20. Falksi Educated

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    The deep roads were definitely a trek, but I too quite enjoyed that. I thought the combat & enemies in that area were excellent - very strategically placed at times.
    Understand the Deja vu feeling though. A few of the areas should have been developed with a bit more variety and distinguishable aspects.
     
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  21. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    Meh, DA:O was nothing like Baldur's Gate, especially the first one (the second BG began many of the trends that eventually led to DA:O and its ilk). BG1 had real exploration and felt like a real world, with large adjacent maps that came together to abstractly model an open world. Compare this with the corridor maps of DA:O, where you are basically moving on rails.

    BG1 had a much better plot, and the NPCs in it, while mostly having simple and/or silly dialogue, said it quickly. DA:O with its terrible plot and similarly simple/silly dialogue inflated the latter with self-importance and grandeur that was never there, and made you listen to it for hours until you wanted to join Darkspawn just to shut all the NPCs up.

    BG1 had a much better combat/leveling system for the most part (the only exception being that non-caster characters had more actions available in DA:O). It had better itemization. More beautiful and charming graphics and sounds, UI.

    The only thing that DA:O had over BG1 was probably C&C but even that was so black and white, it killed all the fun.
     
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  22. Falksi Educated

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    Still though, after 10 or so years of being fairly out the loop with games, I'd expected - and seen - games evolve a lot (3-D being the main overall step). Playing Origins definitely gave me a lot of the old school satisfaction, whilst embracing the more modern era too.
    The argument about whether there was ever any need for any transition at all is a whole different ball game. But I'd honestly say, and this is just me personally, the best overall high fantasy experience which I had from Bioware was Origins.
    Still loads of love for BG1&2, but Origins was just the more enjoyable & replayable package for me.
     
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  23. purpleblob Learned

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    Yep, that's just you. I played both BGs and DA:O, I still play BG2 nowdays and enjoy it while I can't get past Ostagar in DA:O. I agree with the good balance between old school and modern RPG but doesn't mean that make DA:O better game. Also, what is wrong with BG style? I love it. DA2 is a trash I wish I never touched... DA:O is the only decent one out of whole series imo.
     
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  24. Haplo Learned

    Haplo
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    Why don't you play PoE instead for the right mix of old style and modern solutions with improved mechanics?
    Handily beats DAO and for me it tops BG also.
     
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  25. the_shadow Augur

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    It's almost as bad as a mage in Baldur's Gate not being able to wear a helmet. Doing arcane magic must make your head swell up or something.
     
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