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Ken Levine on player driven narratives at GDC 2014

Shaewaroz

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Does Ken actually bring up any new ideas? What do you think about his concept of multiple end states as means for storytelling (a la Civilization) in narrative driven games (for instance RPGs)? Is it possible to create a fully player driven game narrative (in RPGs) without a main story arc? Is his concept too ambitious?

Discuss.
 

Lyric Suite

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Game design is not about "ideas", it is about results. Ken Levine can talk all he wants but his games are a clear indication he doesn't have the balls to do anything even remotely interesting or creative.
 

WhiteGuts

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The "Stars" and "Passion" stuff doesn't really seem new. But the use he makes of it seems kind of interesting. We'll see.
 

Infinitron

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I suspect he wants to make something like what Paradox are already making with Runemaster
 

Metro

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For a guy who marketed Bioshock as having choice and consequence I imagine his idea of player driven narrative is pretty laughable.
 

Wirdschowerdn

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Who gives a shit what this Kike is talking about?

The same foolish people who still hope to learn something new from Sensei Levine-san. Kinda like the Jim Rogers followers who think they can still get valuable investment advice from this old clueless fucker. But at least Ken Levine still appears to be trying.

He sold his soul long ago.

Nah, he just got old and doesn't give a fuck about trends and shit anymore.
 

WhiteGuts

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Also, Ken Levine looks like a fucking retard. I want to punch him to death when I see him, I dunno why.

Had to be said.
 

Lyric Suite

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I like how all his alleged influences happen to be Jews. Surely, that can't be a coincidence. Would explain why he seems to be so butthurt about 'merrikan history. Damn Juice, always carrying a chimp on their shoulders.
 

Melan

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He was given more opportunities to create "player-driven narratives" than most other lead designers in the industry who aren't Richard Garriott, Warren Spector or Peter Molyneux, but his realised projects have had less and less emergent gameplay and player input with each new game he shipped. You can trace the straight line from SS2 to Bioshock: Infinite. What he is really selling is snake oil decline tightly scripted rollercoaster narratives with a thin veneer of intellectualism. When he had an actual choice, he always went for the options which took away player agency in favour of catering to people who prefer easy, passive entertainment where they are amazed without being challenged, or being forced into making meaningful decisions. He sold out player-driven narratives for easy money.

Which is a legitimate way to make a living. This is a business, and he is successful at it. Michael Bay does it in the movies, and so forth. But Bay never tried to appear as an 'auteur' or a 'smart filmmaker' the way Levine is trying to build his own pedestal. He is trying to have it both ways, and that's not honest.
 

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Crossposting from Irrational shutdown thread:

Levine on his new game's narrative structure:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ans-for-a-new-approach-to-narrative-structure

Levine described the nuts and bolts of the system he hopes will facilitate that as a broadly faction-based system, where groups of NPCs are motivated by various and often conflicting 'passions'. Those passions, when met or confounded, will affect an NPC's attitude towards players, granting advantages or causing difficulties for the player. Whilst those factors may be broadly aligned within groups, individuals within that group may have conflicting motivations. A village of orcs, for example, may have a broadly held animosity against a nearby elven settlement, but an individual orc could carry a secret torch for an individual elf. Slaughtering elves wholesale will broadly raise your profile with orcs generally, but lower that individual's opinion of you.

The complexity of that interdependent narrative web offers a significant variation of perspectives within a story. By appeasing different passions and affecting your relationships, a player experiences different journeys.

So far, so Fallout, you may think - or Elder Scrolls, or Fable or STALKER. What makes Levine's plans more interesting is his idea of shuffling those passions around each time, meaning characters change each time you play, forcing players to renegotiate that network of social interactions differently in each playthrough. NPC stars could have a list of 10 or 20 potential passions, a few of which can be randomly assigned at the beginning of each playthrough. Those passions will be related to the point of not being mutually exclusive, but could vary wildly in each iteration.

These passions relate to quests, which affect the passion 'sliders' of everyone who is invested in them, either positively or negatively. In Levine's system, goodwill is a limited resource, making appeasing passions a zero-sum game. You can't please everybody all of the time.

Levine went on to to ponder the ability to add content 'in' to a game, rather than 'on' to it. DLC for BioShock was an add-on, he says, because it's in addition to the original content. Adding new technologies or social systems to Civilization would be adding 'in', because it affects the path of the play through by creating new branches and paths. In the system Levine describes, this could take the form of new characters, passions for existing characters, entire new factions or races, or the imposition of external forces which unite otherwise warring factions, overriding passions or giving focus to certain motivations like survival.

By the time Levine had wrapped up, what his audience was left with sounded a lot like a loose plan for semi-procedurally generated narrative systems which could provide a basis for a game operated as a service. Whilst he didn't explain that explicitly, the outline here would clearly fit that mould: an iterative, easily updated game which would be massively monetisable, with obvious potential for user-generated content, scenario generation or modding. As he was very clear to point out, Levine wasn't revealing any specific game plans or making definite announcements, but this marks a considerable shift in process for a man who is famed for his authorial intent and grand narratives.

smsm9GO.jpg
 

Shaewaroz

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He was given more opportunities to create "player-driven narratives" than most other lead designers in the industry who aren't Richard Garriott, Warren Spector or Peter Molyneux, but his realised projects have had less and less emergent gameplay and player input with each new game he shipped.

Maybe the reason for the degeneration of his vision has been Irrational's rapid growth after Bioshock? I agree that Bioshock was not even near the game SS2 was but it's a hell lot better than Infinite. After all, he was willing to kick out 90% of his staff, presumably to "restore his game design vision". According to every game designer and programmer ever, making games is a mix of 90% teamwork and 10% individual creativity. It's very rare to see large developers come up with something truly unique and uncompromising, which of course makes games like Ocarina of Time and [insert-PC-title-with-100+devs-that's-still-half-way-decent] even more impressive.
 

Melan

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Maybe the reason for the degeneration of his vision has been Irrational's rapid growth after Bioshock? I agree that Bioshock was not even near the game SS2 was but it's a hell lot better than Infinite.
The first Bioshock was already severely dumbed down. I never expected it to be a game with System Shock 2's fiddly subsystems, and SS2 had deep flaws itself. It was okay to change things, even simplify them a bit. But think about Bioshock: how many of your own choices actually matter in the narrative, or even progression through the levels? I was initially very impressed by the setting - it was original and fascinating - but when you consider how many different strategies you can adapt in playing the game, or how the level design accommodates different choices, it is surprisingly barren in that department. Much of it is a funfair ride. A pretty funfair ride with some memorable stops (the DalĂ­-like mad genius, etc.), but as soon as you try to get off the tracks just a bit, you realise you are strapped in and going precisely where the designer wants you to.

Ironically, it all gets much, much more constraining and dumb after you "regain your free will" in the big plot twist, devolving into an even more straightjacketed corridor shooter. At one point, the game forces you into a setup where, to allow you to progress, you have to have a diving suit riveted to your body, and - no joke - deepthroat a rusty drill that transforms your voice box in order to become a "big daddy", which has previously been obviously established as a sad, hulking slave-thing you obviously do not want to become; which only allows you one thing, to enter through a door where you do a glorified escort mission that, predictably, works as well as escort missions do in FPS games; all this allows you to fight an end boss who looks like a bronze statue from the cover of bad Ayn Rand fan fiction, in a small arena that puts the stake through the heart of the promise that you can accomplish things differently in the game. Okay, you can shoot the boss with fire cartridges, lightning cartridges or freezing cartridges. Atlas wept.

I am still not sure if they intended this as very subtle satire on how much punishment computer gamers will accept to collect their plot tokens and complete a game, but, uh, I am betting they didn't even realise what they did. It is not like the game is even subtle about railroading - there is some of that even in the best games due to technical factors, but here, it is absolutely blatant.

By most accounts, Bioshock: Infinite is way worse in this department, although I have not personally played it. To quote a great Kwan statesman, "There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."
 

Lyric Suite

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Levine actually did state he was going for greater general appeal during the development of Bioshock. I think he said he wanted to make something like System Shock that could also appeal to a larger audience, with the underlying implication that a full blown System Shock would not have been lucrative enough to keep the company afloat (at the time i took it on good will that that was the case. How naive of me). Apparently, that "compromise" was successful enough to warrant further dumbing down to bring in even more Jew gold. All this gibberish he's speaking now is probably just so that he can still be touted as a "visionary" developer of "complex games" with "deep narratives" while churning out another rail roared (literally lol) snooze fest.
 
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WhiteGuts

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I think narrative and story developpment was the only part of game design that couldn't be randomly generated, and thus was pretty expensive. From what I get from Levine's stuff, he wants to make the whole process cheaper by making basically procedurally generated narratives. It's all about the jew gold.
 

Shaewaroz

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I think narrative and story developpment was the only part of game design that couldn't be randomly generated, and thus was pretty expensive. From what I get from Levine's stuff, he wants to make the whole process cheaper by making basically procedurally generated narratives. It's all about the jew gold.

Still all the story fragments that the player finally combines into his own story have to be written, and since there's a lot more ways for a player to combine these fragments and the game has to react to all those different combinations, a lot more writing has to be done. It's not like he intends to write a program that creates a narrative out of random story variables. I think that his new development philosophy will require more writing than more traditional (=linear) game narratives.
 

WhiteGuts

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I may have misunderstood the stuff, but I don't think he plans on having the mini narratives tying into a larger storyline. It's just, you know micro stories.
 

Lyric Suite

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Which is why it is never going to happen. Expect more of this instead:

130325174647-bioshock-infinite-elizabeth-story-top.jpg


Except with even less cleavage.
 

Tribal Sarah

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I loved Elizabeth. She's my most favourite Disney princess ever. The game was meh, but if he did one with her as the main character, I'd buy it.
 

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