KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Excidium II]

I don't know what Excidium's problem with KCD's combat is, but the arguments are weak. In any kind of professional/martial fighting, technique >>>>>> anything else. Only when the technique is roughly equal between the opponents do factors like speed, endurance, strength, size, etc come into play. For a good example of that, see the early days of Mixed Martial Arts, when Royce Gracie (a very mediocre relatively unathletic, small sized dude) dominated muscle bound behemoths with only superior technique. Now that everyone learns Brasilian Jui-Jitse in MMA, things like strength and conditioning matter, because the technique is much more even across the sport.

Irrelevant to the point in question which is actual combat, to the death with no controlled enviroment and regulations.

Obviously it's not 100% accurate, as they use dull swords for safety and stuff like that, but it's as close as you can get to historical fighting short of killing each other.

Now there's a crucial problem. They aren't trying to kill to survive.

 

[Cadmus]

I don't know what Excidium's problem with KCD's combat is, but the arguments are weak. In any kind of professional/martial fighting, technique >>>>>> anything else. Only when the technique is roughly equal between the opponents do factors like speed, endurance, strength, size, etc come into play. For a good example of that, see the early days of Mixed Martial Arts, when Royce Gracie (a very mediocre relatively unathletic, small sized dude) dominated muscle bound behemoths with only superior technique. Now that everyone learns Brasilian Jui-Jitsu in MMA, things like strength and conditioning matter, because the technique is much more even across the sport.

Also, HEMA is pretty accurate stuff. Obviously it's not 100% accurate, as they use dull swords for safety and stuff like that, but it's as close as you can get to historical fighting short of killing each other. I watched a lot of their videos online, and if anything, those guys very often point out the myths and inaccuracies from ancient manuscripts and inexperienced practioners, because once you are out there practicing those moves and techniques in real life, it very quickly becomes obvious what works and what's bullshit. So if these guys like KCD's combat, I'd say it's probably really close to the real thing, within video game limitations.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried it myself yet, so for all I know, maybe I will hate it too once I try it. But from the videos, looks pretty neat, with everyone changing stances and guards, using different attacks and counter-attacks. That's way more complex than the typical button mashing crap in RPGs, so I don't see that as a bad thing in any way.

I've watched some other historical fencing, I think I clicked through some youtube videos to find it. It was some czech group and they were doing some German style fencing and what struck me the most was how fucking fast it was and how they used the swords in a logical way to both deflect the blow and stab the guy and the fights usually lasted 1-2 hits without shields. So the fights in KC look really slow to me compared to the video.

 

[Excidium II]

So the fights in KC look really slow to me compared to the video.

I remember seeing a video about the combat that it's slowed down so (cuntsole) players have time to react.

 

[Cadmus]

This group it was, I think they have some neat videos:

 

[Paul_cz]

So apparently KCD combat is bad because Warhorse didnt invent time travel and didnt ask actual medieval soldiers how fighting works.

ok.

 

[Excidium II]

So apparently KCD combat is bad because Warhorse didnt invent time travel and didnt ask actual medieval soldiers how fighting works.

ok.

I don't remember anybody calling it bad. It just doesn't put enough effort into being realistic if it doesn't consider how those medieval martial arts it tries to emulate so hard would actually work in a life or death situation.

It also looks stupid because the animations are goofy as fuck and the feedback is insufficient, but it's still wip.

 

[abnaxus]

Are there morningstars, maces and flails?

 

[Merlkir]

The combat in KCD is different to these HEMA videos for two reasons:

1) Every opponent killable in two hits in an RPG is bad. (I mean, Exanima does it, but they're weird over there) There has to be a scale and dependence on stats.
2) Humans can't react that fast with the keyboard or controller inbetween their reflexes and the movement of their avatar. It has to be slowed down.

If you watch the videos properly, unarmoured enemies do actually die in 3-5 hits, the problem is that armour makes your sword nearly ineffective, at least when you hack into it. So players bash into helmets and slash at breastplates and find the combat too slow, because this is not killing the enemies.

 

[Prime Junta]

Excidium II you're a fucking idiot.

 

[TOUGH GUY]

But what about the katanas?

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'm so torn about it. I agree it doesn't look too appealing and for me personally is not that fun to play.

Thing is the game was pitched and funded as an authentic medieval RPG with authentic swordfighting. And HEMA fans like it. Dunno, I guess it's like a medieval equivalent of Arma - a game for a specific audience and it's important that audience likes it, not the mass market.

I'll wait a while until you reach the same conclusions that I've made. I see you are on the way.

On a separate note, for melee combat not to feel clunky in a 3d environment, if playing with a mouse and keyboard, your only options are:
- a la Thief system
- its more complex cousin, M&B's system, which makes some simple use of mouse gestures
They are both pretty arcade-y though, and to satisfy the playerbase - guys who know what HEMA is but mostly have no experience in them - Warhorse studios have to go with a clunky system where you control too many moving parts in a human body for this to feel comfortable, unless played with a controller. Personally I don't plan to buy and learn to use a controller for the sake of playing this.

Something that only works when both parties are following the same set of rules and techniques in a controlled enviroment where nobody is trying to murder anyone. If it was a fighting game it'd make sense.

Excidium, go watch some Matt Easton videos on youtube, it's easier than having to write post after post of uninformed nonsense. Then you'll be an armchair HEMA expert like the rest of us here

 

[Excidium II]

Excidium II you're a fucking idiot.

Sounds like you one of those delusional fuckers.

 

[Darkzone]

For fucks sake people, watch some MMA, Muay Thai, Boxing or even Judo fights. Train this arts and after a while you will see that from the things that you train you will execute only very few in a tournament and even fewer in a real street fight. In the end the training is to achieve a good timing for attacks, good precision in strikes, to gain speed in execution and to have the condition and strength for a fight, and also to learn to read the enemies body language so that it becomes obvious what the enemy will try to do. I recommend to you all to watch the fights of Conor McGregor vs Chad Mendes or Jose Aldo. Complicated techniques and long combos are nonsense and you will never see good fighters like Kltschkos execute them, quite the opposite they are basically using mostly only jabs (some 80%-90%).
Most of the combos used in a fight are just 2 or 3 different hits and not more. Most Hema tournament fight videos show that nobody is executing an complicated technique, most of them are like semi contact karate, where opponents seek an opening and try to strike there. So yes even most Hema tournament fighters give a shit about Lichtenauer and Thalhofer in a tournament fight and they become more like Kendo, European Fencing and semi contact martial arts practitioners.
And now think that in a real sword fight one hit in 1/4th of a second is the difference between live and death.
This cannot be implemented realistic in video game, but video games can try to approximate as far as possible, before it becomes unplayable.
Here for starter a MMA fight:


So in KCD learn to read the enemy and learn what technique you can execute to strike him or to block his attack.

 

[evdk]

What about scythes, guys?

 

[Excidium II]

For fucks sake people, watch some MMA, Muay Thai, Boxing or even Judo fights. Train this arts and after a while you will see that from the things that you train you will execute only very few in a tournament and even fewer in a real street fight. In the end the training is to achieve a good timing for attacks, good precision in strikes, to gain speed in execution and to have the condition and strength for a fight, and also to learn to read the enemies body language so that it becomes obvious what the enemy will try to do. I recommend to you all to watch the fights of Conor McGregor vs Chad Mendes or Jose Aldo. Complicated techniques and long combos are nonsense and you will never see good fighters like Kltschkos execute them, quite the opposite they are basically using mostly only jabs (some 80%-90%).
Most of the combos used in a fight are just 2 or 3 different hits and not more. Most Hema tournament fight videos show that nobody is executing an complicated technique, most of them are like semi contact karate, where opponents seek an opening and try to strike there. So yes even most Hema tournament fighters give a shit about Lichtenauer and Thalhofer in a tournament fight and they become more like Kendo, European Fencing and semi contact martial arts practitioners.
And now think that in a real sword fight one hit in 1/4th of a second is the difference between live and death.
This cannot be implemented realistic in video game, but video games can try to approximate as far as possible, before it becomes unplayable.
Here for starter a MMA fight:


So in KCD learn to read the enemy and learn what technique you can execute to strike him or to block his attack.

Thanks for making sense. Though I think if the dev's objective really is approximating realism in a RPG system, they need to go beyond physics/historical accuracy and put effort to simulate how the fighter's conditioning, experience, stress, fear, circumstances, etc affect their fighting. In a fighting game that'd be important but in an RPG that wants to realistically portray death battles, that's even more crucial.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Thanks for making sense. Though I think if the dev's objective really is approximating realism in a RPG system, they need to go beyond physics/historical accuracy and put effort to simulate how the fighter's conditioning, experience, stress, fear, circumstances, etc affect their fighting.

That's why I think trying to make a simulation of melee combat is an exercise in futility.

 

[Merlkir]

Yeah, I kind of half agree. Many HEMA techniques are not complicated or long. And you do see interesting techniques being used in tournaments, often it's what separates the really good fencers from the rest of the fit people who spar a lot.

Speaking of Matt Easton, watch his latest helmet-cam video where he fights someone obviously less experienced and listen to his reasoning for the things he does in that fight. Nothing complicated, but it sure is a complex performance built on training and a deep understanding of the systems involved.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Irrelevant to the point in question which is actual combat, to the death with no controlled enviroment and regulations.

Actually it was in response to your earlier point about technique, strength and endurance, so I would imagine it's somewhat relevant.

Now there's a crucial problem. They aren't trying to kill to survive.

And who is? Since obviously outside of some secret Kumite-like medieval fighting tournament in your village, no one is doing that these days, those guys are still by far the best point of reference that we have.

I've watched some other historical fencing, I think I clicked through some youtube videos to find it. It was some czech group and they were doing some German style fencing and what struck me the most was how fucking fast it was and how they used the swords in a logical way to both deflect the blow and stab the guy and the fights usually lasted 1-2 hits without shields. So the fights in KC look really slow to me compared to the video.

A couple of points about that and the video you linked later:

1) What those guys seem to be doing are very specific movements/counter-movements, so one guy will do a predetermined slash a certain way, and the othey guy, fully expecting it, will respond with the right counter-movement. This is different from an actual combat situation, where you don't know what the other guy is doing, so things will be more drawn out with each party trying different things, testing the opponent, etc. It's kind of like doing a certain movement in a martial arts school, you can do it very fast with deadly effect, but in a real tournament, it won't be that fast and deadly.

2) In real medieval combat, as depicted in KCD, everyone wore armor, so obviously blows that would be deadly in unarmored combat would be often deflected/blocked/absorbed, thus making combat last longer.

3) As the guys in KCD videos mentioned, you can't really do melee combat full speed in video games (I think I recall CLANG guys saying the same thing back in the day), because in real life, the movements are so fast, that the only way to see them coming is noticing the slightest cues in the body of your opponent and then using long years of training to respond. This will not work in video games as the graphical resolution, 3D modeling and movements, etc are not nearly that realistic, and the average gamer is not a HEMA veteran. So some concession to speed has to be made for it to work.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Thanks for making sense. Though I think if the dev's objective really is approximating realism in a RPG system, they need to go beyond physics/historical accuracy and put effort to simulate how the fighter's conditioning, experience, stress, fear, circumstances, etc affect their fighting. In a fighting game that'd be important but in an RPG that wants to realistically portray death battles, that's even more crucial.

I don't understand this sentiment at all. So current melee combat in RPGs (or any video games) is complete button mashing shit, but nobody should try to improve it until they can get every tiny detail completely correct? Really?

Also, on topic of KCD's combat, one thing I like to keep in mind as I read all the criticisms, is that a lot of people think the melee combat in Gothic 1/2 is shit, since most of them don't even understand how it really works. So obviously with a game like KCD and a much more complex system, there is a pretty good chance most people who criticize it try it with a button mashing mindset, get murdered, grow frustrated, and start bad-mouthing the system.

 

[Excidium II]

Thanks for making sense. Though I think if the dev's objective really is approximating realism in a RPG system, they need to go beyond physics/historical accuracy and put effort to simulate how the fighter's conditioning, experience, stress, fear, circumstances, etc affect their fighting. In a fighting game that'd be important but in an RPG that wants to realistically portray death battles, that's even more crucial.

I don't understand this sentiment at all. So current melee combat in RPGs (or any video games) is complete button mashing shit, but nobody should try to improve it until they can get every tiny detail completely correct? Really?

Who said they shouldn't try to make a better combat? They just shouldn't call it realistic if it isn't.

 

[Beastro]

Can't wait for Bethesda's porn modding community to migrate to this game and turn it into Kingdom Cum.

 

[Excidium II]

Would definitely install immersive rape mods.

 

[Wolfe]

A friend of mine got around to asking them a few questions: http://thegameslashers.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/an-interview-with-warhorse-studios.html

No downgrade "confirmed"

 

[abnaxus]

ready for the race war

 

[Excidium II]

ready for the race war

He better be ready by 2020, unless czechs build a wall.