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From Software King's Field (From Software)

Riskbreaker

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There ain't no need to exercise your Codexian Edge (TM) on Souls games mate, since Demon's Souls and the first Dark Souls are both legit good games. Different beasts from KF, but nonetheless good.
I do love KF tho, and TAC is my favorite one too. I love Shadow Tower even more, first one is easily my favorite From game. It actually accents this
very few games have ever managed to make the player as completely lost and alone in an unreal world as the king's field world with even the NPCs you meet being but the barest representations of recognizable humanity; instead they serve as cryptic avatars that conduit both the gameplay mechanics as well as the smallest and most esoteric of explanations.
particular aspect of KF games. Wonderfully weird and cryptic game, both in the gameplay and in the story department. Ridiculously exhausting to play thru too, what with the environments being even more oppressive and hostile than those from KF games, almost constant darkness and claustrophobia, and the complex and partially non-linear design of its dungeons.
 
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Hobo Elf

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The slow movement isn't part of the games design philosophy per se. From made a devil's bargain to have a big, seamless world without loading screens and the slow movement was the price they paid for it. If they could they would've gone with faster movement in a seamless world, but the technical limitations didn't allow it. On the flip side they made Eternal Ring which is also a FPP dungeon crawler. It has faster and smoother movement and better combat, but the game world is segmented behind loading screens.

Anyway, yeah, I find it hard to call Souls games a spiritual successor to King's Field, unless the spirit of the game was a dark fantasy setting with swords and monsters. The core of King's Field is dungeon crawling whereas the Souls games are straight up action games. Fundamentally very different games.
 

Beggar

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True that. I love Dark Souls for that tiny grain when I enter Ash of Lake and feel something that drains and touches you, something 99% of video games can't do. But to be honest, while playing Kings Field 4 I feel it all the time. And the more you play, the more you understand from where that tiny grain was taken. I thought Dark Souls is a top notch atmospheric masterwork, but from the whole experience/feeling perspective it's not even close compared to Kings Field 4... I was stunned at how huge those areas are. The last time I was drawing map on paper was with Alien 3 on SEGA 15 years ago. If I could imagine the same situation in some other game, it could be frustrating, but here... you are all alone without any clue how to get back, that dreamy melancholic soundtrack with slow movements just takes you somewhere far away and you just inhale every second of this masterpiece into your soul. Never thought I will find something like that
 
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tl;dr

'souls games = zelda
king's field = planescape: torment

You fucking amateur... I like your description of the series, which I didn't quote for the sake of brevity, but at the same time I gotta be honest with you now: there's not much more that can be said for the series. That's all: you're lost, the world is unreal, NPCs are cryptic. (Though I beg to disagree on your comparison between the soundtracks in King's Field and Souls).

Just to give you an idea how much Souls series improves the formula and where the series actually is with Dark Souls 2 in terms of motifs, art, and design, I recommend reading:

1) http://daveoftheundead.blogspot.com/

2) https://killscreen.com/articles/beginners-guide-kierkegaard-dark-souls-2/

King's Field is great and all, but it turns out so shallow in comparison with Dark Souls 2 that I don't even know where to start.

Fuck, when I registered I already knew that this place is full of nostalgia retards, but now I actually regret registering in the first place.
 
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aweigh

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also in king's field 4 if you step foward twice as soon as you spawn in the beginning you automatically die from an invisible trap-floor. no warning, no explanation, just a direct message from the developers that YOU ARE ALONE IN A DANGEROUS WORLD.
 

felipepepe

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King's Field IV is a really great game, but I hate the combat. Not only you turn EXTREMELY SLOWLY, but the whole "attack, backpedal until bar is full & attack again" dance gets boring really fast.

Would love a remake of KF II or IV with a more meaty combat. Doesn't need to be Dark Souls, something like Dark Messiah of Might & Magic would work great.
 
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aweigh

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dude DMoMM is full on action combat. I dare say even more action-y than 'Souls games themselves which have a slower, more methodical pace.

i just find it funny you used DMoMM as an example of a happy-medium between KF4 and 'Souls series, no offense intended. i mean you can simultaenously throw ice to the ground and make a frozen puddle in DMoMM while kicking a guard who's rushing you right into a wall full of spikes then activating super-speed and picking up a barrel to chuck at a third guard while circle-strafing and firing fireballs.

man, that game was fucking fun.
 

felipepepe

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I don't mean a literal port with all the kicking, decapitation and stuffies. I get the importance of a slower pace, but KF's combat is just shallow and dull. It's worse than even the Elder Scrolls games.
 

Machocruz

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DMoMM is first person swashbuckling, and it's great. First person Severance combat would be a good fit for KF. Complex but not much in the way of flourish.
And there is decapitation and dismemberment in STA. It think it would not be out of place in KF.
 
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aweigh

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...but the thing is that the King's Field games were never meant to be action games. they're actual RPG's, with an accompanying combat system that while reliant on a bit of twitch from the player is mostly resolved through the character's weapons, level, and attributes and gear; it is not meant to be resolved by skillful player twitching.

the 'Souls games ARE meant to be resolved through twitch skills though, and more power to them. it's like comparing apples to oranges. To be fair to the complaints about the slowness it is true that From Software would 100% certainly have made the games "faster" if they hadn't been limited by the hardware and their open world vision. That said i can assure you that they would not have made it action-y.

they made six freaking KF/ST games. they had plenty of time of to twitch-up the combat resolution system if they wanted to by the time they released KF4. the "slowness" complaint due to hardware limitations and open world design is legitimate but only to a certain point; the fact they that they kept the same methodical RPG-ish approach to combat, more akin to Morrowind or Ultima: Underworld combat and never did introduce twitch-elements into their pre-'Souls games tells you all you need to know about the KF/ST team's design philosophy.
 
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zwanzig_zwoelf

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As far as I remember, I've heard that King's Field series were originally designed as 'real-time Wizardry' games. If you think about it, Doom is also a real-time dungeon crawler, and it's pretty interesting to see how two different teams 'streamlined' the dungeon crawler genre. Also, if you need a good example of King's Field/Shadow Tower game with faster combat, go play Eternal Ring. Same team, same gameplay (yet twice as fast doesn't necessarily translate to 'twice as fun').
 
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aweigh

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thanks, i'll check it out. and yes, the original idea behind KF was inspired by Wizardry. Pretty much every single japanese RPG concept/execution is some way inspired by Wizardry. They wanted to harness the power of the PS1 to make what you aptly term as a "real-time Wizardry" which is why the focus was never on fast combat. At all.

i'm too lazy to go find the corresponding youtube link right now but if you youtube a let's play of KF 1 you'll find the b1f design of the dungeon (no open world in KF 1) to be VERY "Wizardry-ish", complete with enemies mostly waiting for the player behind doors instead of simply roaming about like in later KF's.
 

Athelas

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the music in the king's field games is also the best work From's composers ever made. they are just dripping with mood and immerse the player in the environment in a way that the bombastic 'Souls soundtracks will never be able to achieve.
'Bombastic' is a curious choice of words for a 'musical' score that consists mostly of hearing your own footsteps.
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Obligatory mention, but there was a King's Field editor made in the 2000's that was translated a while back and had a bit of a cult (singular) following on like, 3 websites. I gathered a few fan games that was hosted there, and put 'em in one download link along with the level editor and a pack-in remake(?) of King's Field 1 using the engine. On native PC, btw. I'm missing a few because the websites that used to host them went down, but I'll try and find a link to that when I can.

I tested all of 'em on a Windows 7 computer, but I never played it all through to judge the quality. So ymmv.

Some of the fan-games even up the walking speed, so, there's that.
 

Riskbreaker

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I played some 10-15 hours of Moratheia, and I actually liked it. I recall even posting some screenies in the local Screenshot thread. KF3-like structure, strangely Morrowind-like visuals (with some pretty detailed environments and craploads of new resources), crafting system, and generally craploads of content. I actually stopped my playthrough due to author announcing new, overhauled version (which he keeps delaying, current release date is April 2016).

Only other SoM title I have some experience with is Diadem of Maunstraut, which I -tried- to play few years ago. Insanely difficult one, very first area contains loads of enemies with ridiculously high respawn rate, and it introduces enemies that can one-shot ya within first 5-10 minutes (and you are basically expected to grind in the small opening area until you can deal with em, since they are densely placed in only area thru which you can proceed). Might go back to it one day but... yeah.

And there is decapitation and dismemberment in STA. It think it would not be out of place in KF.
STA did a pretty good job in making the combat feel more "actiony" and satisfying, while staying slow-paced and even having those same actiony elements work for thoughtful and tactical nature of the combat. For example, one needs to think about locational damage and decapitations both because it is in one's interest to eliminate enemies with as few hits as possible (since weapons deteriorate as fast as they do in the first ST game), and because with some enemy types one can disable their particularly dangerous attacks by cutting off particular limb. Game kinda underused that later, both with the ample supply of resources and with enemy types with whom there really isn't much need for focusing on attacking specific parts of their bodies, but all-in-all it was a nice attempt at making KF/ST combat feel more action-y without compromising its nature.
 
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Unwanted
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tl;dr

'souls games = zelda
king's field = planescape: torment

You fucking amateur... I like your description of the series, which I didn't quote for the sake of brevity, but at the same time I gotta be honest with you now: there's not much more that can be said for the series. That's all: you're lost, the world is unreal, NPCs are cryptic. (Though I beg to disagree on your comparison between the soundtracks in King's Field and Souls).

Just to give you an idea how much Souls series improves the formula and where the series actually is with Dark Souls 2 in terms of motifs, art, and design, I recommend reading:

1) http://daveoftheundead.blogspot.com/

2) https://killscreen.com/articles/beginners-guide-kierkegaard-dark-souls-2/

King's Field is great and all, but it turns out so shallow in comparison with Dark Souls 2 that I don't even know where to start.

Fuck, when I registered I already knew that this place is full of nostalgia retards, but now I actually regret registering in the first place.

I'm still in a "This message is awaiting moderator approval" limbo, and this particular post has been in a moderator's freezer since yesterday, so I thought I will quote myself, so that more people will have a chance to see it.

If it was a bad idea, I know that I can go fuck myself, no worries.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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Souls series are great. As an entry point to popamole crowd who are willing to redeem themselves and play the God Tier games. :smug:

Also, aweigh, are you willing to give me a hand? Let's make a list of FP dungeon crawlers.

My current suggestions:
  • King's Field [PSX]
  • King's Field 2 (King's Field US) [PSX]
  • King's Field 3: Pilot Disk [PSX]
  • King's Field 3 (King's Field 2 US) [PSX]
  • King's Field 4 (King's Field: The Ancient City) [PS2]
  • Sword of Moonlight [PC]
  • Shadow Tower [PSX]
  • Shadow Tower Abyss [PS2]
  • Hungry Ghosts [PS2]
  • Baroque [PSX]
  • Eternal Ring [PS2]
  • TES: Battlespire [PC]
Third person games with similar approaches to gameplay:
  • Severance: Blade of Darkness [PC]
  • Baroque [PS2]
  • Evergrace [PS2]
  • Demon's Souls [PS3]
  • Dark Souls [X360/PS3/PC]
  • Dark Souls 2 [X360/PS3/PC]
  • Dark Souls 3 [XONE/PS4/PC]
Indeed, Evergrace is basically a midpoint between King's Field and Souls series. Combat is also similar to KF, despite the third person perspective.
 
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aweigh

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a list you say? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

fuck yeah! i love lists. first-person genuine dungeon crawlers... well, let's start things by process of elimination: does a game such as Morrowind count for this list? It is first person and it most definitely has dungeon crawling. Of course I would never include it, but I ask because well, who the fuck knows what genre is what fucking shit game anyway.

question 2: ok, so our prime examples for the context of this list are the KF games i assume. they are exactly what you're referring to down to the bone. we run into trouble with blobbers, though, because most (lol most, should be _all_) are in first-person perspective. Should we include only non-Party based first-person crawlers?

final question: the third "problem" is then the consideration of real-time blobbers. some are even non-party based. however there is a WORLD of difference in design, mechanics, etc, between something like say legend of grimrock and King's Field. In fact of those two i'd say Morrowind hews closer to KF than Grimrock, and Grimrock is actually a categorical 'crawler. Heh.

as for some off the top of my head would be a recent one, The Quest. real time, non-party based, it has dungeons and it has a few villages, it's somewhat like ultima underworld actually. hey, does U: Underworld count?

EDIT: another one i just remembered is legend of hylide for sega saturn. it is however infamously terrible game. check that clip out :D

 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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does a game such as Morrowind count for this list?
Fuck Morrowind.
so our prime examples for the context of this list are the KF games i assume. they are exactly what you're referring to down to the bone. we run into trouble with blobbers, though, because most (lol most, should be _all_) are in first-person perspective. Should we include only non-Party based first-person crawlers?
We can break them down into several lists.
Primary: first person perspective, free movement.
Secondary: third person perspective, free movement.
Unsorted: stuff that doesn't belong in both lists (e.g. King's Field Additional and other stuff).
the third "problem" is then the consideration of real-time blobbers. some are even non-party based. however there is a WORLD of difference in design, mechanics, etc, between something like say legend of grimrock and King's Field. In fact of those two i'd say Morrowind hews closer to KF than Grimrock, and Grimrock is actually a categorical 'crawler. Heh.
Grimrock would belong in the 'unsorted' list, but we should be careful to avoid filling it with all kinds of RT blobbers/dungeon crawlers.
The Quest. real time, non-party based, it has dungeons and it has a few villages, it's somewhat like ultima underworld actually. hey, does U: Underworld count?
Yes! Ultima Underworld also counts.
The Quest is turn-based though.
EDIT: another one i just remembered is legend of hylide for sega saturn. it is however infamously terrible game. check that clip out :D
Yeah, I played this game and even had some fun. :lol:
 
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aweigh

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how about making one thread compiling two styles: a) real-time Dungeon crawlers (obviously both western AND japanese because fuck grpg) and here for example goes grimrock, EotB, lands of lore, ultima underworld, etc; b) first-person (or over-the-shoulder but obviously meant to be a representation of a first-person-view) real-time crawlers like Hylide and King's Field and Shadow Tower and orcs and elves, etc. What do you think?

oh, i recently found this cool-looking RT first-person crawler...

- Verlis 2. It is a real-time dungeon crawler with dedicated buttons for blocking and attacking; when not in combat you utilize WASD + mouse-look to inspect hand-painted scenes.


obviously i assume there must be a verlis 1, hehe. game's art looks good for a super low budget indie.
 
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aweigh

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Souls is good. Blade of Darkness is the sensei who trained it:

 

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