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Lawless Legends - retro RPG for the Apple II/C64

Infinitron

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http://ultimacodex.com/2013/08/new-ultima-fan-project-lawless-legends/
Lawless Legends
WtF Dragon August 26, 2013 Inspired Works

Produced by: badvision
Website: Lawless Legends @ Facebook

Lawless Legends is something of an oddity. Although it is intended as a fantasy RPG, it is set in California circa 1856, in the aftermath of the gold rush. The region in which the game is set, which is centered on Fort Miller, is slowly being overrun with bandits and worse, and rumours of unnatural creatures hiding just beyond the nearby mountain ridges are adding to troubles.

Lawless Legends takes considerable inspiration from the Ultima series, both in terms of its use of a mixture of top-down tiled graphics and first-person 3D rendered viewpoints, and in its choice of launch platform: the game is being coded (at present) for Apple IIs and Commodore 64s (although PC ports and more could potentially happen later on). Some of the images on the game’s Facebook page suggest that the project has been in one stage of development or another sinec the 1980s, although its tools have become significantly more modernized in recent years, which has aided progress on it considerably.
 
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MicoSelva

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the game is being coded (at present) for Apple IIs and Commodore 64s (although PC ports and more could potentially happen later on)
Is there a point to porting it, if both Apple II and C64 can easily be emulated?

I'm curious if this is released at some point. Looks really interesting, and definitely unique.
 

mondblut

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People who persist in coding for a 30 years old platform discarded and forgotten a generation ago genuinely puzzle me. They give a wholly new dimension to autism and futility.
 

Infinitron

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Renamed thread because I'm pretty sure this is a new game that's intentionally retro
 

artakserkso

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People who persist in coding for a 30 years old platform discarded and forgotten a generation ago genuinely puzzle me. They give a wholly new dimension to autism and futility.
Yep. Nothing beats replaying cRPGs discarded and forgotten a generation ago or autism and futility in drawing googlable maps on graph paper and filling tables with detailed numeric information on random encounters.

*takes a deep, refreshing breath of office air*
 

mondblut

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People who persist in coding for a 30 years old platform discarded and forgotten a generation ago genuinely puzzle me. They give a wholly new dimension to autism and futility.
Yep. Nothing beats replaying cRPGs discarded and forgotten a generation ago or autism and futility in drawing googlable maps on graph paper and filling tables with detailed numeric information on random encounters.

*takes a deep, refreshing breath of office air*

Playing a game is not unlike masturbation. Making one, on the other hand, presumes somebody else would eventually play it.

And making one for a platform which can only be found in museums and junkyards is like looking for a 80 years old male homosexual partner for sex in a high school for girls. What a waste of time. The only thing more ridiculous is to ask these schoolgirls to get a greyhaired wig, a wheelchair, and emulate the object of your lust.
 

mindx2

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People who persist in coding for a 30 years old platform discarded and forgotten a generation ago genuinely puzzle me. They give a wholly new dimension to autism and futility.
Yep. Nothing beats replaying cRPGs discarded and forgotten a generation ago or autism and futility in drawing googlable maps on graph paper and filling tables with detailed numeric information on random encounters.

*takes a deep, refreshing breath of office air*

Playing a game is not unlike masturbation. Making one, on the other hand, presumes somebody else would eventually play it.

And making one for a platform which can only be found in museums and junkyards is like looking for a 80 years old male homosexual partner for sex in a high school for girls. What a waste of time. The only thing more ridiculous is to ask these schoolgirls to get a greyhaired wig, a wheelchair, and emulate the object of your lust.

Don't tell that to @Luzur!! :eek:
 

hitfan

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People who persist in coding for a 30 years old platform discarded and forgotten a generation ago genuinely puzzle me. They give a wholly new dimension to autism and futility.
Yep. Nothing beats replaying cRPGs discarded and forgotten a generation ago or autism and futility in drawing googlable maps on graph paper and filling tables with detailed numeric information on random encounters.

*takes a deep, refreshing breath of office air*

Playing a game is not unlike masturbation. Making one, on the other hand, presumes somebody else would eventually play it.

And making one for a platform which can only be found in museums and junkyards is like looking for a 80 years old male homosexual partner for sex in a high school for girls. What a waste of time. The only thing more ridiculous is to ask these schoolgirls to get a greyhaired wig, a wheelchair, and emulate the object of your lust.

Ha!

I'll defend retrocomputing in terms of it being a hobby. Why do people like to work on vintage cars or watch silent films? The HP Lovecraft fan club even made a faux silent film adaptation of "Call of Cthulhu" under the narrative rule that they and the audience pretends it was made way back in 1926. Not possible of course, since Lovecraft suffered anonymity and only saw publication in pulp magazines during his lifetime.

Retrogaming is largely nostalgic, but there's also the aesthetic aspect. I think that a well-designed Activision game for the Atari 2600 is a thing of beauty. I grew up with Commodore computers, but I've installed emulators for NES, ColecoVision Apple II to play those systems' best games as well.

And as for making new games for old platforms... Making a new game for an old 8-bit platform certainly has a limited audience, but it's something that the creator has a passion for and at least it's not as soul crushing as working 16 hour days in a cubicle for EA to realize somebody else's vision (no offense to any people here who happen to work for EA for 16 hours a day).

There's even a publication dedicated to retrogaming: http://www.retrogamer.net/
 

Stabwound

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Of course retrogaming is a hobby, but creating a game that can only run on ancient platforms that very few have access too is ridiculous. I'm sure there is a niche of people that still play with and use actual C64s and Apple IIs, but that niche is probably ridiculously small; far smaller than people like myself who are replaying these old games today on modern machines.

Retrogaming can me fun, but I don't see the appeal in creating something with such limited and old technology that will interest such a minute audience. Your comparison to the recently-made silent film is not comparable, because in comparison to this game, it would be like creating it just the same, except having it natively run on modern OSes. There is nothing wrong with retro style graphics or gameplay (like someone was suggesting was the argument here) but the fact that he's designing it for such ancient and unused technology. A more akin comparison would be a Black Sabbath clone band releasing their debut album on 8-track format only. People might still like Black Sabbath (Ultima) and might still listen (play) them today, but not many people have fucking 8-track players or are willing to acquire one just to listen to a new album in an old style they enjoy.

I won't knock this project because it's clearly a labor of love, and more power to him for that, but he can't expect much of an audience going about it this way. Even more bizarre is that he also has an editor he's developing alongside the game that is written in Java. :retarded: Why not just make the whole game in Java in this case? It makes it seem even weirder.
 

tuluse

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The HP Lovecraft fan club even made a faux silent film adaptation of "Call of Cthulhu" under the narrative rule that they and the audience pretends it was made way back in 1926. Not possible of course, since Lovecraft suffered anonymity and only saw publication in pulp magazines during his lifetime.
Did they also only distribute the movie on 8mm film? Are people only allowed to watch in non-air-conditioned theaters?
 

mondblut

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i both collect and use it (not very often mind you).

and mondy is just jealous.

If you collected some lim.66 kvlt black metal vinyls and tapes that never made it into filesharing, that would be grounds for some jealousy. But when it comes to a bunch of assets and code instructions, I am perfectly pragmatic. So long as it runs, I couldn't care less where it runs from. The only reason I still have hard copies of software at all is that I am anal about having backups of everything :obviously:
 

Alex

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Coding a game in an older platform/language/whatever can give you a real sense of the constraints faced by those who developed the game in the system earlier. Of course, the underlying platform isn't really important. You could, for instance, program Ultima 4 in flash, but still have it play very much like the original (with the possible exception of a few system things, such as the diskette noise. Although you could put this in too, if you really wanted).

However, in the process of making a game, trying to copy the formula of an older one in a modern system won't let you know certain details. What in the game is intentional design. What is the result of simply limitations the system had? Were those unwieldy menus result of the people of the time simply not knowing better, or were there coding reasons. Also, having the game be coded like this can help making the graphics more authentic to the era.

So, what I am trying to say is, sure, you could just go and try to make the best Ultima like game you can. Coding it in a PC would affect the game little, and open it for more people. But if you are really enamored with how the game played in some system, with the spirit of those early RPGs in the Commodore, it makes sense to go back to those. Maybe just for one game or two, but still. Anyway, we can always use an emulator.
 

Luzur

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i both collect and use it (not very often mind you).

and mondy is just jealous.

If you collected some lim.66 kvlt black metal vinyls and tapes that never made it into filesharing, that would be grounds for some jealousy. But when it comes to a bunch of assets and code instructions, I am perfectly pragmatic. So long as it runs, I couldn't care less where it runs from. The only reason I still have hard copies of software at all is that I am anal about having backups of everything :obviously:

well, i got alot of LP's, Whitesnake, Accept, Yngwie etc, if that counts?
 

mondblut

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trying to copy the formula of an older one in a modern system won't let you know certain details. What in the game is intentional design. What is the result of simply limitations the system had? Were those unwieldy menus result of the people of the time simply not knowing better, or were there coding reasons. Also, having the game be coded like this can help making the graphics more authentic to the era.

While we all do love the antique games; their shit graphics, unwieldy menus and limitations are most certainly not the reason why. Coding a best Ultima-like on PC would allow to bring in at least 1990 graphics and functional interface, for a change.

What's important to realize is that the point of these excercises is not to make a good game by far, that's for certain. Only to ape something someone else did 30 years ago. I don't get it, even as a hobby. Even making a replica of a 1886 bicycle in your garage makes more sense; sure, no one will ever ride it even for lulz, but some museum might want to exhibit it. A genuine carbon copy of a 1983 game for a 1983 platform made in 2013 wouldn't achieve even that. There are no museums specializing in human futility.
 

Alex

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trying to copy the formula of an older one in a modern system won't let you know certain details. What in the game is intentional design. What is the result of simply limitations the system had? Were those unwieldy menus result of the people of the time simply not knowing better, or were there coding reasons. Also, having the game be coded like this can help making the graphics more authentic to the era.

While we all do love the antique games; their shit graphics, unwieldy menus and limitations are most certainly not the reason why. Coding a best Ultima-like on PC would allow to bring in at least 1990 graphics and functional interface, for a change.

What's important to realize is that the point of these excercises is not to make a good game by far, that's for certain. Only to ape something someone else did 30 years ago. I don't get it, even as a hobby. Even making a replica of a 1886 bicycle in your garage makes more sense; sure, no one will ever ride it even for lulz, but some museum might want to exhibit it. A genuine carbon copy of a 1983 game for a 1983 platform made in 2013 wouldn't achieve even that. There are no museums specializing in human futility.

Hey, I would rather have Ultima I like graphics any day instead of modern 3D.
 

Alex

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Well, I was actually thinking of the overworld thing. The wireframe dungeons did get a little confusing sometimes, although I still would have them over 3 room dungeons that look more like a corridor of nowadays.
 

mondblut

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I still would have them over 3 room dungeons that look more like a corridor of nowadays.

And what exactly does shit design targeted at ADHD twitch kiddies have to do with "modern 3D" per se? Why won't you bring DLCs and pay2win as a proof of Akalabeth's stickmen powah while you're there?
 

Alex

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I still would have them over 3 room dungeons that look more like a corridor of nowadays.

And what exactly does shit design targeted at ADHD twitch kiddies have to do with "modern 3D" per se? Why won't you bring DLCs and pay2win as a proof of Akalabeth's stickmen powah while you're there?

Well, detailed graphics and animations certainly have skyrocketed the price of making this kind of game, wouldn't you agree? Of course it is not the only factor (marketing stands out as another money sink of modern days). What I meant to say with my last comment is that I think ignoring everything we learned in the last 30 years in gaming is still preferable, at least to RPGs, to what we have today. Which is not to say that we can't learn anything from modern designs.

Edit: And, the point of bringing up prices in first place is that with expensive development, you have to satisfy a lot more people in order to make a profit. Which means that your game must be more "generic".
 

mondblut

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Well, detailed graphics and animations certainly have skyrocketed the price of making this kind of game, wouldn't you agree? ...Edit: And, the point of bringing up prices in first place is that with expensive development, you have to satisfy a lot more people in order to make a profit. Which means that your game must be more "generic".

That much is obvious. But claiming from it that stickmen which look like they were drawn by a 4 years old addicted to crack since gestation are in any way superior to modern 3d graphics is ridiculous.

It's not like Ultima 6 like graphics are prohibitively expensive next to Ultima I shit. All they require is a little bit of competence in the artistic department. Heck, even Spiderweb has managed that already by Exile 3.
 

FeelTheRads

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ut when it comes to a bunch of assets and code instructions, I am perfectly pragmatic. So long as it runs, I couldn't care less where it runs from.

But music is just a bunch of notes. Who cares where they play from?
 

Alchemist

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I can't speak for the developer but I think the point of a project like this (and stuff like Realms of Quest) is both the programmatic challenge and a passion for those old platforms. If programming is your calling, more than just a job, but a true passion for the art and science of coding, I can totally see the appeal of seeing how it was done historically on old machines. Seeing how to work with extremely limited memory space, limited graphics, and assembly language. There is something to be learned in the process. It's not always just about the end result. He could probably throw the game together with GameMaker in a fraction of the time - but that's completely missing the point.

I have a lot of respect for projects like this. They keep this knowledge alive, which is increasingly lost as technology marches on.

And if you're complaining that the game can't be played without an emulator perhaps it wasn't made for you.
 

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