Legend of Grimrock 2 Party Compositions

[Scroo]

My first party was

Minotaur Barb
Minotaur Barb
Human Earth / Water Wizard
Insectoid Air / Fire Wizard

After 3 hours I created a new party which now is

Minotaur Barb
Minotaur Knight
Human Alchemist
Insectoid Air / Fire Wizard

So far the second party seems better

 

[Whisper]

On party composition:

1) Rogue with evasion 43 is hit almost each time, sometimes hit gets evade but its not worth it. Also to stack evasion you need to use shield (+10 evasion or more), which lowers dps (no dual wield for you).
2) Ice-Earth mage is close to useless. A lot of fights where you cant kite - like when mobs spawn behind you and ahead of you. Unless you kill one blocking the way out - you die. Only good skill is Icebolt. Chance to freeze around 30% with 5 water skill. Freeze does not work on bosses.
3) Barbarian with 50 protection is shreded to pieces in like 10 seconds if one zombie is attacking him. Probably not worth it to add Armor, since you only lose 25% prot (and "penalty" from armor is -evasion, not like barb would evade anything).
4) Charged skills are very good, probably Fighter bonus is better then Barbarian STR bonus?
5) Potions do help a lot, especialy potions like Speed potion.


What you think about this setup?

2 frontlines
and 1 Fire-Air mage

or 2 frontlines
and 2 Fire-air mages?

 

[Whisper]

I think i will make alchemist with 1 (2) points in firearms and rest in missile weapons.

But who for frontline? I am not sure if its possible to make good enough tank to take hits. So maybe go full dps but with whom?


Barb + alchemist for frontline and 2 mages behind?

Or barb + rogue archer and 1 mage and 1 alchemist archer?

 

[Pope Amole II]

On party composition:

1) Rogue with evasion 43 is hit almost each time, sometimes hit gets evade but its not worth it. Also to stack evasion you need to use shield (+10 evasion or more), which lowers dps (no dual wield for you).
2) Ice-Earth mage is close to useless. A lot of fights where you cant kite - like when mobs spawn behind you and ahead of you. Unless you kill one blocking the way out - you die. Only good skill is Icebolt. Chance to freeze around 30% with 5 water skill. Freeze does not work on bosses.
3) Barbarian with 50 protection is shreded to pieces in like 10 seconds if one zombie is attacking him. Probably not worth it to add Armor, since you only lose 25% prot (and "penalty" from armor is -evasion, not like barb would evade anything).
4) Charged skills are very good, probably Fighter bonus is better then Barbarian STR bonus?
5) Potions do help a lot, especialy potions like Speed potion.

1. Evasion 43 looks kinda low, not to mention that it's pointless to try making a tank out of non-tanky character. If you wanna rely on dodge as a protection measure, you need to go either knight (I now the passive doesn't work, but extra protection still helps) or fighter (fighter gives the access to the backbiter lifelink that really helps tanking) and you need to max out dodge skill pretty soon. And the character probably needs to be ratling with the mutate & +5 evasion trait. Not sure if that'll work that well, but 43 is too low of evasion anyways.

2. It's good against elementals and, well, ice spikes are pretty nice in those overcrowded fights - not a lot of damage individually, but it's spread all around.

3. Barbarian isn't really the tanky class - he's more of a damage dealer. Insectoid battlemage can gain that 50 protection at level 2, y'know.

4. Absolutely. Actually, barbarian bonus is pretty mediocre - +1 strength is just 0.5 damage, that's 7.5 damage at the level 15 - thank you, but I'll take convenient super-attacks any day over that. The only thing is, with the willpower being bugged, even fighter is pretty starved for energy.

It's about 1-3 herbs, usually the health and mana ones, but others sometimes appear.

Actually, it depends solely on which herbs your alchemist already has in his inventory. SO if you need specific herb, just move all other herbs to his teammates' inventories and watch your most needed ones multiply. Selective breeding does wonders for the rarer herbs.

 

[LeJosh]

Front Row:

Minotaur Fighter - Heavy Weapons and Armor, has 21str, hits like a truck and withstands 6-8 attacks.
Insectoid Battlemage - Casts Fire spells, gains 10 prot. from racial also 10 from holding a wand. Incredibly sturdy.

Back Row:

Ratling Alchemist - Firearms and Alc. brewing potions and shooting, decent, shots take 6s though and pellets are limited.
Human Wizard - Casting Wind and Air spells plus utility. Has the most energy and devastates grouped enemies.

Playing on hard with this group is feasible, I need to optimise it a little more but so far it's good.

 

[Greatness]

New patch is supposedly coming on steam in a couple hours. Will probably fix the attribute/knight bugs.

Devs say: "Old save games will work, although some of the fixes might not apply to them."

So I guess the HP/Energy gains won't be retroactive.

I did some messing around with the farmer class and human XP bonus combined with the 25% amulet. It's really kinda ridiculous how much XP you get. You can just starve everyone else in your party all game and pig out on your farmer. With the XP bonus stacking it'll have a ton of levels. Probably enough to max out all the magic skills and then some. Possibly even a better caster than wizard/battlemage, especially once health/energy start scaling with levels.

 

[Whisper]

On party composition:

1) Rogue with evasion 43 is hit almost each time, sometimes hit gets evade but its not worth it. Also to stack evasion you need to use shield (+10 evasion or more), which lowers dps (no dual wield for you).
2) Ice-Earth mage is close to useless. A lot of fights where you cant kite - like when mobs spawn behind you and ahead of you. Unless you kill one blocking the way out - you die. Only good skill is Icebolt. Chance to freeze around 30% with 5 water skill. Freeze does not work on bosses.
3) Barbarian with 50 protection is shreded to pieces in like 10 seconds if one zombie is attacking him. Probably not worth it to add Armor, since you only lose 25% prot (and "penalty" from armor is -evasion, not like barb would evade anything).
4) Charged skills are very good, probably Fighter bonus is better then Barbarian STR bonus?
5) Potions do help a lot, especialy potions like Speed potion.

1. Evasion 43 looks kinda low, not to mention that it's pointless to try making a tank out of non-tanky character. If you wanna rely on dodge as a protection measure, you need to go either knight (I now the passive doesn't work, but extra protection still helps) or fighter (fighter gives the access to the backbiter lifelink that really helps tanking) and you need to max out dodge skill pretty soon. And the character probably needs to be ratling with the mutate & +5 evasion trait. Not sure if that'll work that well, but 43 is too low of evasion anyways.

2. It's good against elementals and, well, ice spikes are pretty nice in those overcrowded fights - not a lot of damage individually, but it's spread all around.

3. Barbarian isn't really the tanky class - he's more of a damage dealer. Insectoid battlemage can gain that 50 protection at level 2, y'know.

4. Absolutely. Actually, barbarian bonus is pretty mediocre - +1 strength is just 0.5 damage, that's 7.5 damage at the level 15 - thank you, but I'll take convenient super-attacks any day over that. The only thing is, with the willpower being bugged, even fighter is pretty starved for energy.

It's about 1-3 herbs, usually the health and mana ones, but others sometimes appear.

Actually, it depends solely on which herbs your alchemist already has in his inventory. SO if you need specific herb, just move all other herbs to his teammates' inventories and watch your most needed ones multiply. Selective breeding does wonders for the rarer herbs.

1. Evasion 43 is ratling with full rogue set and +10 shield. Also +5 eva from start. Also full evasion skill line. What is "high" evasion?
2. You are lining enemies to do extra 20 dmg to each of them?
2. Insectiod battlemage gets 50 prot - with prot spell (+25) and 2 feats? (+10 and +5?)

About "tanks" i am not sure if extra prot will help. Mage with 10 pro and 100 hp die in 3-4 seconds, barb with 280 hp and 60 prot die in around 10.

 

[Pope Amole II]

1. Evasion 43 is ratling with full rogue set and +10 shield. Also +5 eva from start. Also full evasion skill line. What is "high" evasion?
Also to make 2 full "tank" characters means lose dps, dmg from 2 chars in the backrow is not enough.
2. You are lining enemies to do extra 20 dmg to each of them?
2. Insectiod battlemage gets 50 prot - with prot spell (+25) and 2 feats on armor? (+10 and +5?)

1. Hmm, that's weird, my Ratling knight from the rerolled party had 32 without that +5 trait (+2 dex instead) and full evasion skill line and with not that great of equipment. So he should've had at least 50. And high should probably start somewhere from 60.
2. When there's a crowd of enemies (like in herder's den), they pretty much line themselves. And, well, I'm not saying that water+earth is mega-dps, but there's still reasons to have it (dispel & poison&water shields).
3. That and his passive activated. Probably my best tanking build, because not only he's a great damage absorber, he's also quite adept at casting batlle magic. 2 frontline battlemages + 2 backrow damage dealers is probably the best build possible.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Probably enough to max out all the magic skills and then some. Possibly even a better caster than wizard/battlemage, especially once health/energy start scaling with levels.

There's one question here, though - is there a level cap?

 

[Whisper]

1. Ah, was mistake: Ratling has 53 (!) evasion and gets a lost, almost each time.
2. Good idea, probably both can do two meteor storms and then switch to melee. and what your choice for 2 dps in the back? Alchemist and mage? Alchemist and rogue?

 

[Greatness]

There's one question here, though - is there a level cap?

No hard level cap, but eventually the XP requirements eventualy get very high.So yeah, maybe not max all magic skills. A single farmer character might still be worth it though because they will be quite overleveled. Perhaps it could get good use out of the ratling's mutation trait.

 

[Pope Amole II]

1. Ah, was mistake: Ratling has 53 (!) evasion and gets a lost, almost each time.
2. Good idea, probably both can do two meteor storms and then switch to melee. and what your choice for 2 dps in the back? Alchemist and mage? Alchemist and rogue?

1. KK, that means that evasion plan is shit when it comes to tanking. Even with the knight & fixed shield bonus it still will be bad simply because that build can do nothing but tank whereas battlemage tanks and fights.
2. Alch is always an option, of course. Rogues I don't like in this kind of setup simply because I feel you need to base your tactics around their backstab ability (and probably have two of them for it to pay off). And it just seems counterintuitive - what's the point of having rock-solid frontline if we're still going to flank our foes like there's no tomorrow? If they fix the willpower, fighters will become an excellent option - swift-charged specials look really strong. And, well, there's always the barbarian. So it's either alch+fighter or alch+barb or barb+fighter. Or switch one of those for an extra wizard, that'll also work, of course (especially on hard).

 

[Whisper]

1. Ah, was mistake: Ratling has 53 (!) evasion and gets a lost, almost each time.
2. Good idea, probably both can do two meteor storms and then switch to melee. and what your choice for 2 dps in the back? Alchemist and mage? Alchemist and rogue?

1. KK, that means that evasion plan is shit when it comes to tanking. Even with the knight & fixed shield bonus it still will be bad simply because that build can do nothing but tank whereas battlemage tanks and fights.
2. Alch is always an option, of course. Rogues I don't like in this kind of setup simply because I feel you need to base your tactics around their backstab ability (and probably have two of them for it to pay off). And it just seems counterintuitive - what's the point of having rock-solid frontline if we're still going to flank our foes like there's no tomorrow? If they fix the willpower, fighters will become an excellent option - swift-charged specials look really strong. And, well, there's always the barbarian. So it's either alch+fighter or alch+barb or barb+fighter. Or switch one of those for an extra wizard, that'll also work, of course (especially on hard).

1. Maybe if go full armor+evasion (need to have high both) you can tank some things, but problem you lose dps (since you need 2 such tanks, otherwise 2nd "not-tank" in front low will be getting killed each time). And with 2 full-tanks you get less dmg, but battles go longer so maybe you get even more damage as result of longer battles?

2. Gl with backstabbing. Not seeing how to do it unless on frozen target (this means u also lose time positioning). Freeze also unreliable.

2a. Rogues special trait is that when dual-wielding they lose only 25% of dmg, not 40%. Hmm also +1% crit with missiles per lvl.

3. They wont "fix" willpower. Its intended.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3665705&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=9

 

[Pope Amole II]

1. Maybe if go full armor+evasion (need to have high both) you can tank some things, but problem you lose dps (since you need 2 such tanks, otherwise 2nd "not-tank" in front low will be getting killed each time). And with 2 full-tanks you get less dmg, but battles go longer so maybe you get even more damage as result of longer battles?

2. Gl with backstabbing. Not seeing how to do it unless on frozen target (this means u also lose time positioning). Freeze also unreliable.

2a. Rogues special trait is that when dual-wielding they lose only 25% of dmg, not 40%. Hmm also +1% crit with missiles per lvl.

3. They wont "fix" willpower. Its intended.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3665705&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=9

1. Yeah, probably needs to be a dexterity based knight. I mean, the way the shield bonuses work, the knight is supposed to be dexterity based anyways, but with the shield bug fixed - more so. And I guess you don't even try to deal damage with him - just go full armor&dodge&athletics. He's probably still not as good as the battlemage but, well, some people don't like to play two of the same classes.

2. Frost bombs are good at that, no? And I guess that also depends on the twitchiness of your fingers. Nah, I agree that that's hard to perform, but if you can do that, it's gonna be really good.

3. Well, that's a bogus.

 

[Immortal]

Yea I was hesitant to do a rogue until I found the accuracy perk at level 2 that lets you attack from the backrow.. really useful for a rogue IMO

(Dat Dota Reference)

It seems that any kind of worthy damage dealer (a rogue or a str-based fighter or even barbarian) can't do any kind of tanking so second row seems like a natural place for them. On the other hand, battlemages are surprisingly tanky (if not the tankiest one in the game) so they're much better at the front. Or so it seems.

(I'm more proud of The Stupids reference there, actually)

I am playing on hard with crystal usage set to 1 time only and my Minotaur Barbarian is holding up front line but I did dump dex on him which I am worried might fuck me later with too many misses.. My other front liner is insectoid battle mage with the exact same perks you chose..

Extremely tanking but burns through willpower pretty fast because of all the points in vitality / strength..

I am debating if I should reroll but so far I am doing well enough.. It's hard because I have nothing to compare my progress to.. this is my first party.

1. Maybe if go full armor+evasion (need to have high both) you can tank some things, but problem you lose dps (since you need 2 such tanks, otherwise 2nd "not-tank" in front low will be getting killed each time). And with 2 full-tanks you get less dmg, but battles go longer so maybe you get even more damage as result of longer battles?

2. Gl with backstabbing. Not seeing how to do it unless on frozen target (this means u also lose time positioning). Freeze also unreliable.

2a. Rogues special trait is that when dual-wielding they lose only 25% of dmg, not 40%. Hmm also +1% crit with missiles per lvl.

3. They wont "fix" willpower. Its intended.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3665705&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=9

1. Yeah, probably needs to be a dexterity based knight. I mean, the way the shield bonuses work, the knight is supposed to be dexterity based anyways, but with the shield bug fixed - more so. And I guess you don't even try to deal damage with him - just go full armor&dodge&athletics. He's probably still not as good as the battlemage but, well, some people don't like to play two of the same classes.

2. Frost bombs are good at that, no? And I guess that also depends on the twitchiness of your fingers. Nah, I agree that that's hard to perform, but if you can do that, it's gonna be really good.

3. Well, that's a bogus.

Invis also works for backstabbing.. need a few points in air for one of your battle mages.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Extremely tanking but burns through willpower pretty fast because of all the points in vitality / strength.

Ermm, why strength? Battlemages are cool tankers, but I think it's rather pointless to try make them work in melee - they already have tons of talents to spend on magical schools/concentration/either armor or athletics. I went with 5 willpower & vitality on mine and never felt sorry about them being unable to hit anything. I never actually bothered to give them any sort of melee weapons - it's not their job.

Invis also works for backstabbing.. need a few points in air for one of your battle mages.

Hey, that's pretty awesome. 2xrogues (or any kind of light weapon specialist, it's just that rogues do most damage) should be quite awesome under such setup.

 

[Immortal]

Extremely tanking but burns through willpower pretty fast because of all the points in vitality / strength.

Ermm, why strength? Battlemages are cool tankers, but I think it's rather pointless to try make them work in melee - they already have tons of talents to spend on magical schools/concentration/either armor or athletics. I went with 5 willpower & vitality on mine and never felt sorry about them being unable to hit anything. I never actually bothered to give them any sort of melee weapons - it's not their job.

Invis also works for backstabbing.. need a few points in air for one of your battle mages.

Hey, that's pretty awesome. 2xrogues (or any kind of light weapon specialist, it's just that rogues do most damage) should be quite awesome under such setup.

Why not strength? Doesn't it add to your damage multiplier for mellee attacks? Also why your beef on skull racial? If you have one minotaur that is a huge boost.. They still work if you keep them inside bags or chests.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing.. Just want to hear your opinions)

 

[Whisper]

Invis also works for backstabbing.. need a few points in air for one of your battle mages.

And lose range advantage?

Also most trouble is when u fight multiple foes.

 

[Greatness]

HWhy not strength? Doesn't it add to your damage multiplier for mellee attacks? Also why your beef on skull racial? If you have one minotaur that is a huge boost.. They still work if you keep them inside bags or chests.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing.. Just want to hear your opinions)

Strength isn't really needed on a Battle Mage. You won't actually be doing any melee - just casting. They don't have the spare skill points to invest in both melee and spells. Not to mention you're probably going to be weilding a staff+shield which means you don't benefit from strength anyways.

Headhunter is kind of meh because it takes a long time to reach its potential and even then it's just a couple damage points that don't matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Why not strength? Doesn't it add to your damage multiplier for mellee attacks? Also why your beef on skull racial? If you have one minotaur that is a huge boost.. They still work if you keep them inside bags or chests.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing.. Just want to hear your opinions)

It does, of course, but my battle mages are never doing physical attacks - not only switching between spells & non-spells is too much micro for my tastes, they just don't have enough skill points to develop any kind of offensive melee capabilities.

And my beef on skull racial is simply because it's too slow - 1 strength is just 0.5 damage. So even if you get 10 skulls (which is a lot) that's only 5 damage per attack (well, maybe more if it is multiplied by the weapon skills - need to check this out) - it's not bad, but I prefer the aggressive/weapon specialist combo. Aggressive adds just 3 damage (the equivalent of 6 skulls - how many hours in the game does it take to gather that much?), but it adds them straight from the get-go and I think that, over the distance, it's just more helpful.

 

[Whisper]

Agressive is 4.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Agressive is 4.

It's written as 4, but I've tested it and, unless I'm doing something wrong, it actually adds +2-4 points of damage and that's actually 3. On the bright side of things, it's probably the only thing that adds damage to the firearms.

 

[SuicideBunny]

I want to know this too.. I'm not sure if maybe just having an extra wizard instead would just be better.. Anyone playing on hard that has gotten far in the game.. would be curious in your thoughts on Alchemists or firearm characters in general.

firearms kinda suck ('cept for the hand cannon that uses its own ammo), but imo alchemists are worth it for the herb generation to make perma stat pots once you come across a few crystal flowers (just give all other herbs to somebody else). ratlings also get +1 random stat every fourth piece of cheese they eat (as far as i can tell), so they get +0.25 to each stat on level up and 0.125 to all stats per piece of cheese.

 

[Immortal]

HWhy not strength? Doesn't it add to your damage multiplier for mellee attacks? Also why your beef on skull racial? If you have one minotaur that is a huge boost.. They still work if you keep them inside bags or chests.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing.. Just want to hear your opinions)

Strength isn't really needed on a Battle Mage. You won't actually be doing any melee - just casting. They don't have the spare skill points to invest in both melee and spells. Not to mention you're probably going to be weilding a staff+shield which means you don't benefit from strength anyways.

Headhunter is kind of meh because it takes a long time to reach its potential and even then it's just a couple damage points that don't matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

Great feedback Pope..

Greatness:
What does staff benefit from stat wise? I was planning on going sword and boarding with weapon swapping to spells tab.. I am playing with only one heal per save crystal so I can't always depend on willpower being available unless I grab regen % and chug potions constantly..

Or am I over estimating spell costs? I was going based on my Grimrock 1 playthrough.. my wizard always ran out of mana when I couldn't heal at crystals more then once.

 

[Greatness]

What does staff benefit from stat wise? I was planning on going sword and boarding with weapon swapping to spells tab.. I am playing with only one heal per save crystal so I can't always depend on willpower being available unless I grab regen % and chug potions constantly..
Or am I over estimating spell costs? I was going based on my Grimrock 1 playthrough.. my wizard always ran out of mana when I couldn't heal at crystals more then once.

I mainly said you will be using a staff for the passive battle mage +10 protection. It doesn't really benefit from WIS other than a larger energy pool to use its special ability.

As far as spell costs, you can always rest when ever you need more energy. I really doubt you will run out of food, and even if you do "starving" doesn't really matter, it just means you have to use potions/crystals for healing until you find sustenance. If you have an alchemist you can also craft lots of mana potions.

The main problem with having a melee battle mage is that you have to spread your stats all around. STR for damage, DEX for accuracy, VIT for survivability, WIS for energy. If you just want to cast shield then start melee'ing I guess that's fine. Alternatively though you can instead opt to just use magic for damage you can totally skip out on STR/DEX since your spells auto hit and scale with your skill level. Swapping back and forth between weapons and spell runes is a bit micro intensive as well, especially for how fast paced the tile-dancing can be in this game.