Legend of Grimrock 2

[Pope Amole II]

The biggest problem of some areas being too puzzle-heavy is that it makes the repeat runs of the game much more boring. I mean, if you like puzzles then yeah, you can totally enjoy them in the first run (I, personally, utterly and absolutely loathe puzzles and can only accept them only if they are thoroughly greased with the in-world lore - I loved all the text quests in Space Rangers 2, btw, finished almost all of them and there were tons of puzzles there), but in the second run they simply become a chore (and especially annoying chore if they're based not only on the smarts, but also on the reaction time). And that chore is totally hindering my fun that comes from mastering the game - like, the medusas were super-annoying previously, but now I'm just not being greedy and killing each one with a timely frost bomb. Or the magma golems - in the first run, I had to kite them with my missile specialist which took a lot of time and they killed a ton of those tasty, tasty mummies in the process. In the second run, I just sneaked to the teleport under the invisibility spell, cleared the area then lured them there, one by one. And I killed them both pretty fast with backstabs & invisibility & occasional rush to the teleport to reset the battle. This game would be awesome to replay if not for the need to redo all that stupid shit once again.

 

[Daemongar]

There is definitely a place for the Grimrock's of the world, just that ... there are puzzles that MUST be solved in order to proceed. There were no alternatives, or flexibility, or any choice. You either solved certain puzzles or went home. .

And this is bad because...?

Moderation in all things. There was a lot of good in LoG2, but *all* challenge boiling down to having too look at every f*ing wall gets a little monotonous. I can handle tough combat and can get through those. Having 90% of the game-time coming down to looking at every wall in every dungeon? There is only one level in the game from memory that didn't force you to blankly stare at every wall and look for the hidden button (other than the outdoors.) There really was little difference between what was needed to proceed and optional secret areas.

Completed LoG1, and don't think there were as many secrets, or that I had to look at every facet of every wall to win. Maybe I'm just not remembering as well, but DM2 had hidden switches for *hidden/optional stuff*, not just to get out and move on. Every f'ing thing is a hidden button or something. You know, if there was a fire in that castle everyone would die?! Aw shit, the flames are out of control, quick, lets drop a paper down this hole then drop down, drop another item, then climb these ladders, and drop four items then time our run to the next gate then climb down, hit the switch, climb back up, get on the glowing path...

There were good puzzles:
* The lights in the Pyramid
* The floor of spikes in the Cemetery Crypt
* Lots of teleporter/pressure plate puzzles (a good example was one on the first floor in the Pyramid - getting through the gate took some experimentation, but if you worked harder there was a secret you could see below you, so you could proceed but optionally go after extra content.)

There were bad puzzles:
* Every puzzle that required finding a hidden button to proceed.
* The puzzle with the teleporters on the second(?) floor of the castle. Even knowing how to do the puzzle was obnoxious. Tedious.
* Puzzles involving things that SHOULD be on automap. They really should have marked things like notes, heads, and teleporters on automap. Spent too much time looking for the "Silent head" and the Left Eye and the Right Eye, keyholes, buttons, switches, etc. Good puzzles, but needlessly prolonged by spartan maps.

Combat:
The only thing I can say was consistent were the fights. They weren't too bad and provided a great amount of challenge. However, having to do 200+ hps of damage to those rat guys, or any other creature? Those rats should have been the low hps, hard to hit type, not the high hps, normal to hit. Seemed like on balance, my to-hit was more based on my accuracy than the enemy AC (things like rat swarms excluded.)

There were also some other things that mad me scratch my head:
* Liked being able to dig, and accidentally dug up some Tome which appeared to be the end of a series to riddles. Felt kinda bad. If I were to replay this game, I would go directly to where everything is buried first, then proceed through the dungeons.
* There should have been some water breathing potion craftable. Maybe a 5th level Alchemy or something if they want to make it difficult, or 5th level water spell. I don't care, but seemed like they wanted to prolong certain areas.
* All that inventory and stuff I held onto in case it was needed. This is why games have stores. They should at least allow you to sell items, buy some misc items (Would a store that sells healing potions kill the programmers? What if I don't want a damn alchemist?)

Eh, I could go on, but you get my point. Good game, but it could use some tweaks.

 

[Jaedar]

I thought the battle against the magma golems was cool. Managing the undead hordes to keep your escape clear as you run around the lumbering beasts during the attack animation and then gtfo before they smack you.

I wish the game had more set piece battles like that, and less 'trash' encounters.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

There were also some other things that mad me scratch my head:
* There should have been some water breathing potion craftable. Maybe a 5th level Alchemy or something if they want to make it difficult, or 5th level water spell. I don't care, but seemed like they wanted to prolong certain areas.

There is...well, technically. Drink an energy potion to be able to be longer underwater. A Water school spell that increased the time underwater would also have been nice.

 

[thesheeep]

Loads of puzzles and combat dancing. This might be the anti-RPG for me

 

[Daemongar]

I thought the battle against the magma golems was cool. Managing the undead hordes to keep your escape clear as you run around the lumbering beasts during the attack animation and then gtfo before they smack you.

I wish the game had more set piece battles like that, and less 'trash' encounters.

I loved this as I didn't expect it. All I could see were unlimited hordes of xps enemies. There were several high points in the game, and this was one of them. I think I died a couple of times before I realized I was doing the fight with the Magma Golems all wrong. Being a pathetic greedy player, I also had to reload so that the golems didn't accidentally kill any mummies. It's a sad life...

 

[adddeed]

* All that inventory and stuff I held onto in case it was needed. This is why games have stores. They should at least allow you to sell items, buy some misc items (Would a store that sells healing potions kill the programmers? What if I don't want a damn alchemist?)

Again, if you want merchants, play ALL the other RPGs out there that have them. The whole point of Grimrock is that it's just the player vs the dungeon. If you're hoarding items, thats your pboblem. If you need more health potions, make them. If you dont want an alchemist, dont have one. Rest instead.

 

[Daemongar]

Also for the people complaining about too many puzzles: it might be just me, but I have always viewed RT dungeon crawlers as puzzle games first, with the combat being a sorta additional minigame, often a puzzle in disguise. The LoG2 combat:puzzles ratio is IMHO perfect.

This is all opinion, but I disagree. The original DM, the father of dungeon crawlers, was more of a dungeon simulator with combat and traps. You also had to stay fed, had to have enough water, and work on your weapon/spell skills to stay alive. The conflict was party vs. environment. You needed torches, food, water, mapping skills, and a safe place to rest. There were traps, monsters, and all that but the amount of food was limited so you had to move to avoid starvation. There was an impetus that drove one forward, even when low on health.

Contrast this with LoG2: the real conflict is party vs. trap. This makes sense given the setup, but it was too much. Too out of balance.

 

[evdk]

Also for the people complaining about too many puzzles: it might be just me, but I have always viewed RT dungeon crawlers as puzzle games first, with the combat being a sorta additional minigame, often a puzzle in disguise. The LoG2 combat:puzzles ratio is IMHO perfect.

This is all opinion, but I disagree. The original DM, the father of dungeon crawlers, was more of a dungeon simulator with combat and traps. You also had to stay fed, had to have enough water, and work on your weapon/spell skills to stay alive. The conflict was party vs. environment. You needed torches, food, water, mapping skills, and a safe place to rest. There were traps, monsters, and all that but the amount of food was limited so you had to move to avoid starvation. There was an impetus that drove one forward, even when low on health.

Contrast this with LoG2: the real conflict is party vs. trap. This makes sense given the setup, but it was too much. Too out of balance.

You make the original DM sound more complex than it actually is (CSB on the other hand...) - food/water is never an issue in vanilla DM thanks to plentiful fountains / respawning monsters coupled with the master staircase allowing you to back track easily, safe resting spots are usually easy to find and you get enough skill advancement from simply progressing in the game to comfortably finish it. I do not really see much difference between LoG and DM in all this, except that LoG has more "monsters spawn in your blind spot as a result of you opening doors" situations than DM. But as you have said, opinions.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Ok, comments on the Cemetery puzzle to open the gates. Am I the only one who thought it was too vague?

Especially compared to the rest of the puzzles in the game where the answer is nearby, this relies on information found elsewhere... Which by the time I got back I'd completely forgotten what I'd actually found there. And basically relied on "this must be it... I think" because everything else I'd used at some point. Then trying to work out directions...

 

[Gord]

Ok, comments on the Cemetery puzzle to open the gates. Am I the only one who thought it was too vague?

Especially compared to the rest of the puzzles in the game where the answer is nearby, this relies on information found elsewhere... Which by the time I got back I'd completely forgotten what I'd actually found there. And basically relied on "this must be it... I think" because everything else I'd used at some point. Then trying to work out directions...

Wasn't that just what you wanted yesterday or so? I mean, a puzzle that is not solved by using just clues and stuff in the same room or nearby?

 

[Mortmal]

Ok, comments on the Cemetery puzzle to open the gates. Am I the only one who thought it was too vague?

Especially compared to the rest of the puzzles in the game where the answer is nearby, this relies on information found elsewhere... Which by the time I got back I'd completely forgotten what I'd actually found there. And basically relied on "this must be it... I think" because everything else I'd used at some point. Then trying to work out directions...

No you are not the only one, i had to read a spoiler to solve it, i was thinking it was more some code to break siwtching a letter for another for exmeple . Earlier you find a panel in the woods with same language . I expected to have to find books to translate the missing words . I was looking too far, it was a simple direction puzzle .

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Ok, comments on the Cemetery puzzle to open the gates. Am I the only one who thought it was too vague?

The problem for me with this puzzle was not what I was supposed to do, but HOW I was supposed to do it. It took me a while to realize that I had to reset the block after every direction, then I realized that some of the direction directions were inconclusive because the earth is round, then figured I'd do it like a Finn and assume "In case of doubt, go with North".

I've also been enjoying the discussion about the "Relic" achivement on the Steam forums, where a user has called out the devs for making bullshit puzzles a lá FEZ (scan QR code to get silly picture) and making a user account with zero posts to suddenly post the solution in an attempt to show that the devs are clever.

He has a point, you know. The puzzle is kinda crap, and there's no reward besides the achievement. Everyone else is just being standard-fare Steamtard.

 

[adddeed]

Especially compared to the rest of the puzzles in the game where the answer is nearby, this relies on information found elsewhere... Which by the time I got back I'd completely forgotten what I'd actually found there. .

Pro-tip. You can put down notes on the map. Even choose from four different markers. Use it.

 

[Canus]

Ok, comments on the Cemetery puzzle to open the gates. Am I the only one who thought it was too vague?

The problem for me with this puzzle was not what I was supposed to do, but HOW I was supposed to do it. It took me a while to realize that I had to reset the block after every direction, then I realized that some of the direction directions were inconclusive because the earth is round, then figured I'd do it like a Finn and assume "In case of doubt, go with North".

I've also been enjoying the discussion about the "Relic" achivement on the Steam forums, where a user has called out the devs for making bullshit puzzles a lá FEZ (scan QR code to get silly picture) and making a user account with zero posts to suddenly post the solution in an attempt to show that the devs are clever.

He has a point, you know. The puzzle is kinda crap, and there's no reward besides the achievement. Everyone else is just being standard-fare Steamtard.

I actually quite liked that puzzle. It's super obscure, and I don't think I would have ever even thought of the fact that the LOG1 map could be used as a cryptographic key, but I like the fact that they went that far with it.

 

[Jaedar]

Ok, comments on the Cemetery puzzle to open the gates. Am I the only one who thought it was too vague?

Especially compared to the rest of the puzzles in the game where the answer is nearby, this relies on information found elsewhere... Which by the time I got back I'd completely forgotten what I'd actually found there. And basically relied on "this must be it... I think" because everything else I'd used at some point. Then trying to work out directions...

No, I thought it was much too vague, even if you have the notes its still not obvious there's a connection.

As for the relic puzzle: I looked it up, and honestly, it seemed fine to me given that it's just an obscure reference to LoG1. Maybe tying it to actaully finishing the game to get the needed hint was a bit bad though.

 

[valcik]

Seconded, even with the leads it took me more than a hour of desperate attempts just to realize that there are more than three steps in this friggin puzzle. Outrageous deal breaker!

 

[cvv]

Ok, comments on the Cemetery puzzle to open the gates. Am I the only one who thought it was too vague?

No you are not the only one, i had to read a spoiler to solve it, i was thinking it was more some code to break siwtching a letter for another for exmeple . Earlier you find a panel in the woods with same language . I expected to have to find books to translate the missing words. I was looking too far, it was a simple direction puzzle .

The problem for me with this puzzle was not what I was supposed to do, but HOW I was supposed to do it. It took me a while to realize that I had to reset the block after every direction

Well, I knew immediately what to do...I just missed one small detail -

Spoiler

didn't occured to me you have to go north twice.

***

Also, I've read up on the relic achievement and fuck that puzzle.

 

[valcik]

DM2 and its merchants are the maximum I am willing to accept NPC-wise in these games.

Properly designed NPC would be really nice. Let's say, there should be secret prison with hidden entrance protected by difficult rebus, full of undead monsters, with empty bottle placed in one of the prison cells. Grateful djinn with barter interface should appear after rubbing the item furiously, before he leaves this wicked plane for good. Yay!

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Wasn't that just what you wanted yesterday or so? I mean, a puzzle that is not solved by using just clues and stuff in the same room or nearby?

Yes. Which is why I was surprised they actually had one after all that time. It's the "odd one out" out of some hundred or so puzzles to date. I suppose what annoyed me the most is the "frozen tundra" and "hot desert". I kept looking at the map thinking "Oh, I must not have found those places yet, is it that gate down South I still have to open? And hot desert must be North because Pyramid... Or maybe it's not and it's somewhere else and I need to get into the Pyramid first to find out where the desert is..."

Instead, it's a stand-alone reference that seems to have nothing to do with the game world, even though that's what it seems it's like. I think the combination of those two factors made it stand out. It seemed like it was referencing things it wasn't. It just seemed vague, and made me wonder what this Xafu pilgrim had to do with getting in the cemetery, as opposed to the Pyramid I'm still yet to crack.

Pro-tip. You can put down notes on the map. Even choose from four different markers. Use it.

I do. Quite comprehensively.

 

[adddeed]

Well then you shouldn't be forgetting stuff then should you?

 

[DemonKing]

I'm maybe 3/5ths of the way through and I'll admit that the balance between puzzles, combat and exploration does seem heavily tilted toward the puzzle side of things. The combat that is there is vastly improved over the original. I'm also not sold on the value of adding the food-management system to the game - quite often I was reloading after spending some time figuring out puzzles and redoing them just because my food supplies were low.

In many ways it's kind of a stripped back version of the EOB titles. Adding recruitable NPCs (perhaps with unique classes/races) and some basic dialog options and NPC interactions would go a long way to adding flavor to the game. I loved little things in EOB like being able to resurrect bones you discovered on your journeys and while this game has a few hidden surprises (like feeding cheese to rats, for example) more of that kind of hidden stuff would be welcome.

- The load button and the save menu options are right next to each other and it's easy to load when you want to save. This has happened to me too many times.

Ummm...you can remap all the keys so this shouldn't be a problem...

 

[Daemongar]

- The load button and the save menu options are right next to each other and it's easy to load when you want to save. This has happened to me too many times.

Ummm...you can remap all the keys so this shouldn't be a problem...

I mean the actual menu with Resume, Load, Save, etc. Don't know why I have more problems with this game than others, but it was pretty easy to click Load instead of Save. Just a minor pet peeve, nothing too substantial.

 

[cvv]

I'm maybe 3/5ths of the way through and I'll admit that the balance between puzzles, combat and exploration does seem heavily tilted toward the puzzle side of things. The combat that is there is vastly improved over the original. I'm also not sold on the value of adding the food-management system to the game - quite often I was reloading after spending some time figuring out puzzles and redoing them just because my food supplies were low.

In many ways it's kind of a stripped back version of the EOB titles. Adding recruitable NPCs (perhaps with unique classes/races) and some basic dialog options and NPC interactions would go a long way to adding flavor to the game. I loved little things in EOB like being able to resurrect bones you discovered on your journeys and while this game has a few hidden surprises (like feeding cheese to rats, for example) more of that kind of hidden stuff would be welcome.

I definitely brofist all of this. Unless I'm missing something the food management system in my mind serves absolutely no purpose, except incentivizing you to constantly reload after spending longer time solving a puzzle.

And yes, with the evolution from a simplistic dungeon crawler to a more epic format I was expecting some basic NPC interaction as well. For example whatever is wrong with how Lands of Lore 1 or Wizardry 6 handled things in that respect? It wasn't a full blown questing experience but it did give some flavour to the dungeon crawling.

As for the puzzles I don't mind the heavy focus on them I just wish some of the clues were less vague and fewer of them relied on the ol' trial-and-error solution (worst example - the spike pit with five buttons; now, are you supposed to press all of them or just some? And do you have to press them in any particular order? If yes, what order? Trying this while dying all the time and running out of food is annoying and unfun).

Apart from that I enjoyed this game immensely, easily one of my favourites this year.

Btw I never got to the "true" ending. I ended up with only 3 spare gems and I couldn't be bothered to crawl through the whole game again to check where I missed the last one. And even then I'd probably never figured out where to stand and what to do to get to the fifth shrine. And even if I miraculously figured out that, knowing my stupid dumbass, it'd probably never occured to me to visit that particular area again to get to the final lair. :D

 

[evdk]

As for the puzzles I don't mind the heavy focus on them I just wish some of the clues were less vague and fewer of them relied on the ol' trial-and-error solution (worst example - the spike pit with five buttons; now, are you supposed to press all of them or just some? And do you have to press them in any particular order? If yes, what order? Trying this while dying all the time and running out of food is annoying and unfun).

You mean in the pit in the sewers, with the note "Follow the leader" lying right next to it?