Baldur's Gate Let's DISCUSS Infinity Engine combat and Baldur's Gate with random noobs

[Excidium II]

But it's no surprise that BG2 would improve upon BG1.

And then Obsidian didn't learn anything from it. What a shame

 

[Average Manatee]

I feel like I have control in RTwP in the sense that a special needs teacher has control in his classroom

Like Edwin is done with his activity, I have to be on the lookout to give him another sheet to draw or he'll eat the crayons/sit there catatonic, all while I also keep watch on the other kids

That says more about you than the game. It just means you are such a slow and pathetic RTS gamer, even a RTS with a pause is too hard for you.

The problem is probably that the game has adjustable speed.

If you play at 30 FPS, combat is fairly comfortable but out of combat walking around is too slow.

If you play at 60 FPS, out of combat traveling feels proper but you have to spam the space bar like a rabbit on crack during a fight with a 6 person group. Though it still was fine for trash mobs where you cast day-long buffs and hacked through a whole area in about a minute real time.

One good thing that PoE did was to let you use both.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

I'll try bg 2 soon. I hear it's an RPG. I'll make my last post to say I never said Darklands wasnt repetitive I said that those three games engaged me as a player. These are all opinions, Jesus. I guess this topic is a dead horse circa 2015 2005 though. It does bother me that criticizing BG for dullness gets me labeled popamole. Enjoy your echo chamber faggots.

Fixed.

Don't take it so personally, but, bear in mind, you're having a go at a game that became outdated when BG2 was released, and a lot of people around here have been discussing it for years - if you come back, use the search function before posting a thread, read up on the old threads. This place is a treasure trove of discussion. Everyone will be grateful for it.

 

[Goblino]

I didn't make this a thread. A few jabs at BG in a SitS thread turned into a huge off topic shit fling. The irony is that I was mentioning that peoples opinions on PoE have no reason to undermine their critique of SitS.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Now it makes sense.

 

[Excidium II]

I don't even remember how this began but people were bringing PoE up because the guy criticizing SitS is a PoE lover which is a very interesting thing

Post related:

Complains about trash mobs.
Complains about lack of balance, where some spells are superpowerful while others are useless.
Complains you waste too much time on nothing.
Says that if you don't have money to make a long game don't fill it with trash mobs.
Says he likes old games but isn't nostalgic and likes good design.
Complains about kiting.
Complains about shitty, exploitable Ai.
Complains about stat balance.

 

[laclongquan]

I didn't make this a thread. A few jabs at BG in a SitS thread turned into a huge off topic shit fling. The irony is that I was mentioning that peoples opinions on PoE have no reason to undermine their critique of SitS.

Hey hey hey, you are touching a traditional pastime for oldtimers, in that we post a few jabs at old favourites to start the flame.

Your problem is NOT that you want to jab at old favourites, but that you can NOT stand the heat.

Liking bad games is NOT the problem. WHINING when failing to defend your game is a problem.

If I feel bored and that the world wont care, I would start a comparison thread saying F2 (or Crono Cross) is the greatest game ever and F1 (or Cronos Trigger) is just the stepping stone. It drive people's blood pressure to the roof. Example only, because that gambit has been done a few times already.

 

[roshan]

Spoiler

I remember half of those maps being filled with nothing but one or two gibberling/knoll mobs or a pointless scripted encounter (you find Drizzt killing a trash mob! Try to kill him for his swords if you want!).

It seemed like an amazing amount of effort (art-wise) for almost no gameplay.

oh boy, here we go again

GarfunkeL

Thanks for the tag.

I should just make a big post that I can copy/paste everytime some retard who played BG when they were 9 years old repeats this bullshit.

Talk to Neville. You can ask that his men come out of hiding and his troupe will attack, or demand all his gold in which case he steals 55gp and leaves.

Talk to the Ogre. He is not interested in fighting. If you want assistance you can tackle Laurel's quest first but do not talk to her once you have helped her. If she sees the Ogre (once he turns hostile) she will attack him. However if she kills him then you will not gain the experience. Talk to him again and he will attack. Kill him.

Talk to Laurel. If your Reputation is less than 8 she will attack you. Otherwise she asks for your help to kill some Gibberlings. Agree. Kill the Gibberlings that arrive. Once they are all dead talk to her again.

Jared will approach you. He is running scared of a bear over the bridge west of his location. Kill the bear. Return and talk to Jared.

Use the exact location x 166 y 177 to find a wand hidden in a hole in a tree.

Enter the cabin AR5406. Kill the War Dogs. Raid the two barrels.

Talk to Prism the sculptor. You can either tell him you will defend him when the bounty hunter Greywolf arrives, or kill him yourself, or let Greywolf kill him. If you choose to face Greywolf you will have to kill him, then talk to Prism who will die shortly after. Collect his emeralds. Return to Oublek in Nashkel.

Galtok is on the run from some Kobolds. Kill them.

Talk to Fahrington. He has lost a scroll to a thieving Tasloi. If your NPC Reaction is 1-7 he will not tell you his troubles but you can still return the scroll to him. Head east and kill an Ettercap (higher up the food chain) who now has the scroll. Return to Fahrington with the scroll.

Denak will hail you then these mages will attack on sight (unless Edwin from Nashkel is in your party).

Enter the cave AR4501. Kill the Wyverns. Search the corpse. Collect a Wyvern Head and take it to Kelddath at the Song of the Morning in Temple.

Hamadryad is not marked on the map, she's a fun encounter as well.

Pallonia will approach you and talk of forces at work.

Killing the Sirines is part of Cordyr's sidequest (from Baldur's Gate) but can be completed before you meet him. Sil will hail you then she and her Sirines will attack. Kill them. If you were sent by Cordyr return to him at the Baldur's Gate Docks.

Enter the cave AR3601. Kill the Flesh Golems. Raid the pool for treasures.

You will need a male in the party to talk to this Chaotic Neutral Human Thief. She wants to recover some treasure from a cave to the NW of this map. You can recruit her or dismiss her. If you do not want her then strip her of her possessions and dismiss her.

Talk to Arkshule who will read your palm. If you pressure her to reveal more when she pauses she will attack - dialogue options 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1. Kill her.

Talk to Ardrouine. Her son is trapped by some Worgs near the Lighthouse. Agree to help and go and kill the Worgs. Return to Ardrouine.

Talk to this Lawful Good Human Paladin. You can recruit him or dismiss him. If he leaves the party because of unhappiness he will attack any evil aligned members he sees. There is also a random chance he will attack evil party members while he is in the group.

Talk to Sonner. He will complain about a witch affecting their fishing. Evil people can agree to dispose of the witch for 20gp. Head north to Wyrm's Crossing and speak to Tenya. After her sidequest, talk to Sonner again and say the priestess had much to say. Evil people can ask him to sweeten the deal and he will add 100gp, in which case you should talk to him again after Tenya is dead. Good people will demand the fishermen (Sonner, Jebadoh and Telmen) hand over Tenya's bowl. Then kill them for being cruel to her. Return the bowl to Tenya.

Talk to Brun. He has lost his son. Enter the pit AR1401 to the west of his farm. Kill lots of Ankhegs. Collect his son's body from an alcove x 2460 y 140. Return with the body. Talk to Brun. You can offer him 100gp as an act of charity. Beware if you have any Ruby Rings as they will automatically be included in your gift to him unless you drop them on the floor before you talk to him.

Talk to Gerde. She wants you to cull some Ankhegs. Kill as many as you find. Return and talk to her again.

If only it wasn't mandatory to explore them. Although I don't get why people can't see the design logic behind wilderness areas.
BG was about porting a traditional DnD campaign to PC, the game uses and laughs at most pnp games tropes and clichés with one of 'em being adventuring in the wilderness at low level until a deadly fumble results in a bear ripping your character apart. Wilderness areas in BG are about catching that feel (and imo is a better way to do it than simple random encounters), needless to say wilderness areas didn't have any reason to be present in the sequel as well, since a veteran party of adventurers need suitable challenge.

Still consider these wilderness areas to make perfect sense considering what BG wanted to achieve.

Yes. this exactly. Too many games pack their tiny maps full of "content" so that the ADHD generation doesn't have to pause to think or reflect. If there isn't AWSUM happening every 2 minutes, their attention span will burn out.

The problem is that the maps are far too large and open. Unless you are staring at a guide with names on it, 90% of the time is spent going back and forth in rows and columns like you're mowing the lawn searching for something that isn't a gibberling pack. A wide flat plain with trees dotted around is the absolute least interesting and most tedious to explore.

In comparison, here's some BG2 maps:

Note how there is major landmark to begin with and the rest of the geography is broken up by rivers, which guide your exploration. Instead of needing to memorize "NPC I need to report to is at x 2300 y 3600 standing next to a tree that looks like every other tree on the map" you know that they are on in the house on the west side of the river from the main town.

Probably the closest to a BG1 area you can find, but even still it's more compact with less wasteful ground to cover and the trees provide semi-paths to walk through.

Inside, but still. Holy shit, there's actually something to explore that's, you know, interesting to explore. Who fucking remembers tree #827 when they pass it?

in comparison, here is what exploring a BG1 area looks like:

Note how the wide open spaces and complete lack of landmarks to move through and locate NPCs by makes the whole thing a bunch of meaningless walking around and killing stuff looking for something to do.

Not wanting to spend the majority of your time walking around aimlessly in circles killing trash mobs isn't ADHD, it's called not being retarded.

So you want to be guided through an area. Next you will ask for a quest compass.

 

[Goblino]

I can take some heat, I just got caught up in the wrong discussion. Dropping BG is fresh on my mind.

You know what fuck it. Crimson shroud did what BG set out for better and it was a linear turn based game with static character models. Baldurs gate is shit because they barely touched on a d&d game. Why use a system like d&d has in a game with so little player agency. In the end, I just don't like baldurs fucking gate. I'm sorry y'all can't see why it's boring as hell after I laid it out.

 

[Excidium II]

So you want to be guided through an area. Next you will ask for a quest compass.

Seems to me he wants maps with some basic thought in their design

 

[roshan]

So you want to be guided through an area. Next you will ask for a quest compass.

Seems to me he wants maps with some basic thought in their design

Bullshit. That BG1 map is filled with features including a river dividing it into two, a lake, rock formations and a row of cliffs. What he wants is to be "guided" through an area in linear format. Last I checked corridor design was frowned upon in the Codex. That may have changed in 2015.

 

[Excidium II]

Seems to me you missed the point completely

 

[Turok]

For some people over-analyze fun is fun...

Viva la codexian.

Stop wasting time on a forum, just grab a game and play it.

 

[MilesBeyond]

As a random noob I am drawn to this post like a moth to a flame.

First, IIRC when the Codex took a poll the general consensus was that PoE was better than BG1 but not BG2, so these posts being like "People criticize PoE for having trash mobs and empty areas but give BG1 a free pass! HYPOCRITES!" are objectively insane.

Second, IMHO the Infinity Engine games in general benefited immensely from the AD&D license. The reality is that it's a lot easier to make a good RPG when the mechanics, setting, and lore have already been laid out for you. This is why I've sometimes found it a bit unfair the way people compare games like DA:O and PoE to BG2. Yes, I definitely think that BG2 was far better than either of those, but that's partially because they didn't have to spend much development time on rules and locations. Though considering how Bioware and Obsidian both marketed their games as spiritual successors to BG it's not all that unfair a comparison.

Third, RTwP has always been a bit of a tricky thing for me. I only really enjoy the IE's implementation of it, and even then, I feel like it would be better if it were turn-based. That being said, it's still light-years ahead of combat in any Beth game, and BG2 and IWD1 in particular had encounters designed well enough that the occasional clunkiness in the system could be forgiven.

Fourth, I am completely in love with the interface. You click somewhere and people go there. I know in the 90s this wasn't a big deal but considering how literally everything Bioware has released since has been an absolute nightmare to control I can't help but bring it up anyway. I mean moving soldiers around in Civ V is less tedious and annoying than trying to tactically position your party in NWN 2 or DA:O.

Ultimately, though, I think that there's nothing particularly magical or special about the IE itself. I just think the Infinity Engine happened to be developed at a time when the RPG renaissance was reaching its nadir and there was a lot of fresh new talent able to take it and put it to good use.

 

[Volourn]

"Second, IMHO the Infinity Engine games in general benefited immensely from the AD&D license. The reality is that it's a lot easier to make a good RPG when the mechanics, setting, and lore have already been laid out for you."
So much easier that explains all the shitty unsuccessful D&D games out there. LMAO

\Once the GB games hit their wall and started being irrelevant, DnD video games were over. It got so bad that Interplay got so desperate that friggin' feargue had to bug the BIO Docs to take their RTS game/engine and turn it into DnD because Interplay (and others) had utterly failed at making a good DnD game.

L0L DTU L0L

 

[Average Manatee]

So you want to be guided through an area. Next you will ask for a quest compass.

Seems to me he wants maps with some basic thought in their design

Bullshit. That BG1 map is filled with features including a river dividing it into two, a lake, rock formations and a row of cliffs.

Yes, and if those features took up more than 10% of the map leaving the other 90% empty useless space, it might be a good map.

What he wants is to be "guided" through an area in linear format. Last I checked corridor design was frowned upon in the Codex. That may have changed in 2015.

Please tell us how the BG2 maps are linear.

And there's nothing wrong with open areas. The problem is open areas + mindless running around looking for shit.


But here, I made the ultimate hardcore RPG map just for you. Almost infinite non-linearity and hours of fun mowing the grass. Tell me how you like it:

 

[Excidium II]

"Second, IMHO the Infinity Engine games in general benefited immensely from the AD&D license. The reality is that it's a lot easier to make a good RPG when the mechanics, setting, and lore have already been laid out for you."
So much easier that explains all the shitty unsuccessful D&D games out there. LMAO

\Once the GB games hit their wall and started being irrelevant, DnD video games were over. It got so bad that Interplay got so desperate that friggin' feargue had to bug the BIO Docs to take their RTS game/engine and turn it into DnD because Interplay (and others) had utterly failed at making a good DnD game.

L0L DTU L0L

exactly lolz

Adapting a pnp system like AD&D (faithfully) to the limited scope of a CRPG is a harder task than coming up with a bunch of mechanics specific for one videogame. And sure, the setting lays out the all the groundwork for you but you can just as well use it just for inspiration. It doesn't really take a lot of resources to come up with what's presented in most CRPGs.

 

[Goblino]

that fuckin sight radius tho

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Coming from a generation who paid dear money to play this in shitty bars :

I went ballistic lawnmowing the awesome BG areas while sitting confortably at home. Youngsters...

 

[Sensuki]

The problem is that the maps are far too large and open. Unless you are staring at a guide with names on it, 90% of the time is spent going back and forth in rows and columns like you're mowing the lawn searching for something that isn't a gibberling pack. A wide flat plain with trees dotted around is the absolute least interesting and most tedious to explore.

In comparison, here's some BG2 maps:

Note how there is major landmark to begin with and the rest of the geography is broken up by rivers, which guide your exploration. Instead of needing to memorize "NPC I need to report to is at x 2300 y 3600 standing next to a tree that looks like every other tree on the map" you know that they are on in the house on the west side of the river from the main town.

This is not a very good comparison, as Umar Hills is technically a village - more comparable to something like the area of Nashkell. Umar Hills is a good area, but it is devoid of any proper exploration. The area is condensed and every location is part of a quest. There is no walking off the beaten path to find a hidden treasure cache or anything like that (which was cool in BG1). There is no space between the elements for the areas to breathe. I think this is something which people who do and don't enjoy the BG1 areas often disagree on.

Nashkell had several locations that were not part of any quest - such as the Noble's estate, the Tavern, several houses and the farmland to the south. Some people see this as 'wasted space'. I do not. The fields and the other elements help create a proper atmosphere for the place and also helps create the feeling that you can literally explore the entirety of the sword coast.

Probably the closest to a BG1 area you can find, but even still it's more compact with less wasteful ground to cover and the trees provide semi-paths to walk through.

Contrary to what you said, this is nothing like a BG1 area and is rather indicative of the BG2 area design - compact, with nothing to explore other than quest-related elements. Upon entering for the first time this area only has Anath's cave which is related to the Umar Hills quest and a bunch of lone shadows dotted around the paths of the map. There are no containers in the exterior of the map and the area with the Mithril Cache is not there when you first enter it (and Lord Igen Tombelthen is also not there). Those elements are part of one of the Stronghold quests which mostly re-use existing areas, and only spawn when that quest is initiated.

Inside, but still. Holy shit, there's actually something to explore that's, you know, interesting to explore. Who fucking remembers tree #827 when they pass it?

The Underdark is a good area - the Captured Souls and Vithal were nice touches.

in comparison, here is what exploring a BG1 area looks like:

Note how the wide open spaces and complete lack of landmarks to move through and locate NPCs by makes the whole thing a bunch of meaningless walking around and killing stuff looking for something to do.

Not wanting to spend the majority of your time walking around aimlessly in circles killing trash mobs isn't ADHD, it's called not being retarded.

In a lot of the spaces where you wrote 'fucking nothing' there is often an encounter, and there is a group of Ogres, Ogre Berserkers and Hobgoblin Elites on the north bridge. BG1 areas are not perfect and I agree that a little bit more content density and more involving quests would go a long way into making the areas feel better. I like the general idea though.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

I'm slightly more a fan of realistic world design.

 

[Doktor Best]

So you want to be guided through an area. Next you will ask for a quest compass.

Seems to me he wants maps with some basic thought in their design

Bullshit. That BG1 map is filled with features including a river dividing it into two, a lake, rock formations and a row of cliffs. What he wants is to be "guided" through an area in linear format. Last I checked corridor design was frowned upon in the Codex. That may have changed in 2015.

Corridor design is not bad leveldesign in itself. Tt only becomes bad leveldesign if it is one straightforward corridor with some minor deadends on the side. Branching mazelike corridors that are interconnected with shortcuts and intersections and occasional clearings with broader areas are very much enjoyable. To me they are even superior to completely undirected spacious areas, as those offer almost no guidance or orientation and dont provide any leverage for designers to form interesting encounter setups.

 

[Volrath]

When exactly did Baldur's Gate become a good game? Did revisionist therapy go so far already?

 

[vivec]

Sensuki
Are you all of a sudden admitting that BG's were good due to their " world design" and not due to their gameplay?

 

[Animal]

I just did a playthrough of BG1.

I like walking in mostly empty woods, with the occasional wolves and a random npc. It feels right, like it would happen that way IRL (RL being a fantasy world).

BG has problems, but the "empty" areas are not one of those in my book...