Baldur's Gate Let's DISCUSS Infinity Engine combat and Baldur's Gate with random noobs

[ZagorTeNej]

I feel like some people are talking about "how does BG hold up today" and others are talking about "how was BG when it came out".

With the difference being what exactly? RPG genre didn't evolve in any satisfying way and games like BG (2D isometric, party-based with a mix of adventuring and dungeons crawling) simply stopped being made all-together until the recent Kickstarter fad.

Anyway, it holds up as well as it ever did for me, similar to other games from the 90s. I still vastly prefer them in terms of design approach/philosophy, UI, itemization, creativity, gameplay etc. to modern attempts of re-imagining the genre.

 

[octavius]

I feel like some people are talking about "how does BG hold up today" and others are talking about "how was BG when it came out".

With the difference being what exactly?

There's a vast difference between playing original BG1 and BG1 with almost 20 years' worth of mods.
But of of course if "how does BG hold up today" means how unmodded BG holds up, then the answer is: very badly, mainly because of the very small resolution.

 

[Lord Azlan]

I played a bit of BG when it came out as mates were raving about it. A gave it a good go but just can't remember it being fun as I do other games of the era such as SS2, Daggerfall, Half Life or Monkey Island.

Now, these are quite old memories. About the game in general, the bits where companions start talking to each other or run off in a huff - pissed me off. I LOL with the occassional voice over in the M&Ms but did not appreciate that in BG. The combat, use spacebar to pause, give instructions, unpause - hmmm

If BG and DAO were turnbased combat - would they be better games? Is it possible to solo these games?

I like blobbers but then also really enjoyed the combat in Blackguards. I like the combat in Grimrock. I enjoyed and completed Mass Effect 1 and 2.

Every now and again I look at those enhanced versions of BG and just wish I could play and enjoy them - but something is holding me back.

I disliked the combat in KOTR and Dragon Age - and gave them both a real good go.

I really enjoyed WL2 and looking forward to the enhaced version. So - what is my problem?

Can someone make the case for the combat in BG and IWD as I really want to play them but my doubts prevent me.

Isn't the combat in Mass Effect of the same type as in BG or KOTR or DAO - now why do I enjoy the first but loathed the others.

I need answers please!

 

[jagged-jimmy]

BG I is boring (vanilla, must admit). I don't see how that opinion is invalid. No walls of text or join date can change it.
BG II was very fun though.

It was boring to you. Not to millions of players that played it and loved it.

And that is what i mean! It's perfectly fine if you and millions of people liked it. What i don't like is that finding it boring is somehow a sin and causes wall of text and fetch quests examples with screenshots to be posted. I just stated my opinion about it, does not mean i find it impossible that some people loved it.

 

[Goblino]

If you roll 87 and make a berzeker, then your party will play like diablo right out of the keep. Mages can be kinda cool if you can overlook that theres almost no difference between a single one of them, except edwin.

 

[ArchAngel]

BG I is boring (vanilla, must admit). I don't see how that opinion is invalid. No walls of text or join date can change it.
BG II was very fun though.

It was boring to you. Not to millions of players that played it and loved it.

And that is what i mean! It's perfectly fine if you and millions of people liked it. What i don't like is that finding it boring is somehow a sin and causes wall of text and fetch quests examples with screenshots to be posted. I just stated my opinion about it, does not mean i find it impossible that some people loved it.

You might be on a wrong forum than. People don't share experiences here but tell others what they must think.

 

[Telengard]

I played a bit of BG when it came out as mates were raving about it. A gave it a good go but just can't remember it being fun as I do other games of the era such as SS2, Daggerfall, Half Life or Monkey Island.

Now, these are quite old memories. About the game in general, the bits where companions start talking to each other or run off in a huff - pissed me off. I LOL with the occassional voice over in the M&Ms but did not appreciate that in BG. The combat, use spacebar to pause, give instructions, unpause - hmmm

If BG and DAO were turnbased combat - would they be better games? Is it possible to solo these games?

I like blobbers but then also really enjoyed the combat in Blackguards. I like the combat in Grimrock. I enjoyed and completed Mass Effect 1 and 2.

Every now and again I look at those enhanced versions of BG and just wish I could play and enjoy them - but something is holding me back.

I disliked the combat in KOTR and Dragon Age - and gave them both a real good go.

I really enjoyed WL2 and looking forward to the enhaced version. So - what is my problem?

Can someone make the case for the combat in BG and IWD as I really want to play them but my doubts prevent me.

Isn't the combat in Mass Effect of the same type as in BG or KOTR or DAO - now why do I enjoy the first but loathed the others.

I need answers please!

I will categorize my answer.

COMBAT TYPES OF COMMONLY KNOWN RPGS

Turn-Based Tactical
Gold Box
Jagged Alliance 2
Wasteland 2

FPS With RPG Elements
Mass Erection
System Shock 2

Action Adventure (or the Awesome Button)
Dragging Age
KOTOR

Office Manager Simulator*
Baldur's Gate

I hope that properly illuminates for you what you enjoy.

* Translation: Have you supplied everyone with what they need? Have you efficiently prepared for as many eventuallities as possible? Have you acquired all local quests and planned how to best maximize your rewards? Have you listened to everyone's story, made all your companions coworkers feel as awesome as they can? You have, good. Now sit back and file your nails while the AI does all the work, though occasionally interrupting to ensure everyone stays properly on task.

 

[octavius]

Office Manager Simulator*
Baldur's Gate

I hope that properly illuminates for you what you enjoy.

* Translation: Have you supplied everyone with what they need? Have you efficiently prepared for as many eventuallities as possible? Have you acquired all local quests and planned how to best maximize your rewards? Have you listened to everyone's story, made all your companions coworkers feel as awesome as they can? You have, good. Now sit back and file your nails while the AI does all the work, though occasionally interrupting to ensure everyone stays properly on task.

 

[Ludo Lense]

Office Manager Simulator*
Baldur's Gate

I hope that properly illuminates for you what you enjoy.

* Translation: Have you supplied everyone with what they need? Have you efficiently prepared for as many eventuallities as possible? Have you acquired all local quests and planned how to best maximize your rewards? Have you listened to everyone's story, made all your companions coworkers feel as awesome as they can? You have, good. Now sit back and file your nails while the AI does all the work, though occasionally interrupting to ensure everyone stays properly on task.

PoE:

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I played through BG many times and yet I never let the AI do any work in combat. As a matter of fact I always turn it off altogether. I guess that makes me an autistic micromanager, but I really don' t give a fuck, since at the end of the day I enjoyed the game, so I win.

Anyway, The "sit back and watch the game play itself" option worked only too well in NWN, I wonder if it's really that bad with BG but I don't feel like trying.

 

[Immortal]

in comparison, here is what exploring a BG1 area looks like:

-snipola-

Note how the wide open spaces and complete lack of landmarks to move through and locate NPCs by makes the whole thing a bunch of meaningless walking around and killing stuff looking for something to do.

Not wanting to spend the majority of your time walking around aimlessly in circles killing trash mobs isn't ADHD, it's called not being retarded.

First - You aren't wrong.. technically.

~However~ I would argue the area you slammed in paint is a bit cherry picky (even as wilderness areas go that one is pretty lackluster which is -saying- something).

I would however argue that this was part of the Charm of BG 1. It wasn't always about being on an epic adventure. Think about it, all of these wilderness areas were avoidable (most didn't even have quests that took you there)

The amount of items, treasure, nooks and crannies and companions you would miss avoiding the wilderness areas was huge so you would often explore out door areas completely out of curiosity - unsure where your next combat encounter was coming from.
Areas were sparse enough to require you to look around. You would hear birds chirping, twigs and bushes cracking, your wandering around then BAM, a pack of x or companion y or a group of red wizard or basilisks or whatever.

There was a ton to find but as you said it was a little daunting to explore them fully. Zig Zag Zig Zag - Sure if you go back and look at the game under a scrutinizing eye - the faults and lack of depth isn't hard to notice especially in those areas.

I think this was part of the charm / feels / immersion.

It felt good.

Compare that to PoE - Which takes the same exact level design (Flat Outdoor areas) and STUFFS them with trash encounters. Your every step uncovers a pack of ogres or dragons or whatever, no room to breathe, no anticipation of what you might find.. Just shit after shit to kill for no reason.

I'm not trying to strawman - I know your no huge fan of PoE either but that is level design done completely wrong. PoE is how bad it could of been. BG 1 wilderness areas will always be remembered as those kind of content light areas with goofy npc's but it's still enjoyable if you look at it from the perspective of an adventuring party exploring the forgotten realms country side.

 

[roshan]

I find it very strange and hypocritical that people AKA morons hold BG accountable for their own autism and obsessive compulsive disorders. You don't want to uncover every black patch, roaming around in zigzag patterns, lighting up one box shaped map after the other? THEN FUCKING DON'T. To confuse your own spergyness as core gameplay of BG1 is ridiculous.

When I played BG1 for the first few times, I mostly stuck to the paths, at that time, I had no idea about DND rules or character creation, was just learning the ropes, and wandering off path with a crappy character was quite dangerous (I was only 13 years old, and the only RPGs I had played before were ironically the radically different Diablo and Fallout 2). I mostly followed the roads and the path markers to the Friendly Arm Inn, and then down south all the way to Nashkel via Beregost. And that in itself was the experience. You encounter bandits ambushing the roads, people asking for help, messengers en route from one town to another, flaming fist guards maintaining security. But the knowledge that I could strike off in ANY direction - and wander off into another map, one that would possibly not even be connected to the main roads - and explore it - it was absolutely magical. Not entirely different than the way Fallout 2's open world left me both lost and in awe. When I did wander around, striking off into the wilds, off the beaten trail, it really did felt like it, and was very much a rewarding experience, encountering unique companions and exotic beasts. Usually I never ended up clearing maps either, just kept wandering off to the west, just to see where I might end up. There was real beauty in the BG1 experience, you just had to avoid going completely OCD to appreciate it. And if you do enjoy map clearing - I must admit, that is how I play games today (and the toughened up, modern experience with SCS somewhat requires it) - then by all means go ahead and have fun. But if you don't enjoy it, force yourself to do so unnecessarily, then bitch about it online, then that is simply ridiculous.

Furthermore, most enemies in the core critical path and even in much of the major side content can be dispatched even without XP grinding a ton of levels. The kobolds in the mines, or the gnolls in the stronghold, or Bassilus' undead, all very much doable at low levels, although more luck may be required.

 

[GarfunkeL]

If you roll 87 and make a berzeker, then your party will play like diablo right out of the keep. Mages can be kinda cool if you can overlook that theres almost no difference between a single one of them, except edwin.

I already told you to stop talking when you're only embarrassing yourself. Oh wait, you added all those weasel words in there, I guess that makes it fine.

The problem is that the maps are far too large and open. Unless you are staring at a guide with names on it, 90% of the time is spent going back and forth in rows and columns like you're mowing the lawn searching for something that isn't a gibberling pack... Not wanting to spend the majority of your time walking around aimlessly in circles killing trash mobs isn't ADHD, it's called not being retarded.

No, you're exaggerating to a comical extent and just proving that you want an on the rails, cinematic experience with hand holding:

Maybe this picture from another genre will help you understand. BG1 is on the left and has some actual exploration. Now I'm not saying that BG2 is on the right, itäs not, as there's still some exploration left aside and some of the maps even have a few, minimal, empty spots, but bye and large Bioware designed BG2 maps so that

A) you cannot get lost
B) you cannot miss anything
C) you constantly encounter something

Are you seriously claiming that RPGs get better if you remove exploration? Because it seems to me that you are. Which is why I called it the "ADHD" experience. You used Underdark as one example and it's a great map where you literally stumble into an encounter every other step - every corner and room of the map has an eouncter of some kind, not counting the random ons. You know what I was expecting to encounter in the Underdark? The actual Underdark: miles and miles of corridors with few but dangerous monsters - something like the mines from BG1 but on steroids.

 

[Immortal]

Now I'm not saying that BG2 is on the right, itäs not, as there's still some exploration left aside and some of the maps even have a few, minimal, empty spots, but bye and large Bioware designed BG2 maps so that

Yea totally agree with this. For sure BG 2 maps are more content full and the artwork got better and there are some places you can diverge or look around (Athkatla). For the most part though, every open area or wilderness area has some kind of purpose. A quest that brought you there, a city or village that has quests or whatever.

The right picture might not describe BG2.. but it sure as fuck describes NWN / ME / Dragon Age / Jade Empire / Kotor.. You can see where the decline in this regard started. Of course spergies who need 100% playthrough of their game appreciate the Checkpoint A B C style game and see exploration without a compass as "Degenerate Gameplay" instead of exploration.

 

[Athelas]

I already told you to stop talking when you're only embarrassing yourself. Oh wait, you added all those weasel words in there, I guess that makes it fine.


No, you're exaggerating to a comical extent and just proving that you want an on the rails, cinematic experience with hand holding:

Maybe this picture from another genre will help you understand. BG1 is on the left and has some actual exploration. Now I'm not saying that BG2 is on the right, itäs not, as there's still some exploration left aside and some of the maps even have a few, minimal, empty spots, but bye and large Bioware designed BG2 maps so that

A) you cannot get lost
B) you cannot miss anything
C) you constantly encounter something

Isometric 2d maps have no exploration of a 3d environment though. The likelihood of getting lost or missing something on a BG1 map is about the same as getting lost or missing something on a BG2 map: not very high.

 

[Goblino]

If you roll 87 and make a berzeker, then your party will play like diablo right out of the keep. Mages can be kinda cool if you can overlook that theres almost no difference between a single one of them, except edwin.

I already told you to stop talking when you're only embarrassing yourself. Oh wait, you added all those weasel words in there, I guess that makes it fine.

The problem is that the maps are far too large and open. Unless you are staring at a guide with names on it, 90% of the time is spent going back and forth in rows and columns like you're mowing the lawn searching for something that isn't a gibberling pack... Not wanting to spend the majority of your time walking around aimlessly in circles killing trash mobs isn't ADHD, it's called not being retarded.

No, you're exaggerating to a comical extent and just proving that you want an on the rails, cinematic experience with hand holding:

Maybe this picture from another genre will help you understand. BG1 is on the left and has some actual exploration. Now I'm not saying that BG2 is on the right, itäs not, as there's still some exploration left aside and some of the maps even have a few, minimal, empty spots, but bye and large Bioware designed BG2 maps so that

A) you cannot get lost
B) you cannot miss anything
C) you constantly encounter something

Are you seriously claiming that RPGs get better if you remove exploration? Because it seems to me that you are. Which is why I called it the "ADHD" experience. You used Underdark as one example and it's a great map where you literally stumble into an encounter every other step - every corner and room of the map has an eouncter of some kind, not counting the random ons. You know what I was expecting to encounter in the Underdark? The actual Underdark: miles and miles of corridors with few but dangerous monsters - something like the mines from BG1 but on steroids.

Goddamn! Look at that strawman! You ,sir, have proven my opinions wrong. Please accept this dragon dildo as a token of my submission

 

[Average Manatee]

If you roll 87 and make a berzeker, then your party will play like diablo right out of the keep. Mages can be kinda cool if you can overlook that theres almost no difference between a single one of them, except edwin.

I already told you to stop talking when you're only embarrassing yourself. Oh wait, you added all those weasel words in there, I guess that makes it fine.

The problem is that the maps are far too large and open. Unless you are staring at a guide with names on it, 90% of the time is spent going back and forth in rows and columns like you're mowing the lawn searching for something that isn't a gibberling pack... Not wanting to spend the majority of your time walking around aimlessly in circles killing trash mobs isn't ADHD, it's called not being retarded.

No, you're exaggerating to a comical extent and just proving that you want an on the rails, cinematic experience with hand holding:

Maybe this picture from another genre will help you understand. BG1 is on the left and has some actual exploration. Now I'm not saying that BG2 is on the right, itäs not, as there's still some exploration left aside and some of the maps even have a few, minimal, empty spots, but bye and large Bioware designed BG2 maps so that

A) you cannot get lost
B) you cannot miss anything
C) you constantly encounter something

Are you seriously claiming that RPGs get better if you remove exploration? Because it seems to me that you are. Which is why I called it the "ADHD" experience. You used Underdark as one example and it's a great map where you literally stumble into an encounter every other step - every corner and room of the map has an eouncter of some kind, not counting the random ons. You know what I was expecting to encounter in the Underdark? The actual Underdark: miles and miles of corridors with few but dangerous monsters - something like the mines from BG1 but on steroids.

The left would be closer to BG2. If you wanted BG1, make an open box with no rooms. Great "exploration".

You can't get lost (still relatively small areas, only the very small sight radius and low resolution makes them feel big, and you have a map), can't miss anything (unless you intentionally skip parts and leave blank spots on your map), and constantly encounter stuff (randomly spawned trash mobs) in BG1 too. That doesn't make exploration in BG1 any less tedius though.

 

[Doktor Best]

For me, BG2 really hit the sweet spot in regards of exploration. It was tighter stuffed with things to go on but it still wasnt railroaded like later bioware games.

And yes BG2 would be very much comparable to the left picture. Just look at a map of the starting dungeon.

 

[agris]

For me, BG2 really hit the sweet spot in regards of exploration. It was tighter stuffed with things to go on but it still wasnt railroaded like later bioware games.

And yes BG2 would be very much comparable to the left picture. Just look at a map of the starting dungeon.

You're kidding, right? The only thing keeping it from being a linear corridor is that several rooms have passages into the same central room. That's it.

edit: of course, I'm assuming you wouldn't get lost in the pendant-like rooms hanging off of the twisting main corridor since they only have one entrance.

 

[Excidium II]

If you roll 87 and make a berzeker, then your party will play like diablo right out of the keep. Mages can be kinda cool if you can overlook that theres almost no difference between a single one of them, except edwin.

I already told you to stop talking when you're only embarrassing yourself. Oh wait, you added all those weasel words in there, I guess that makes it fine.

The problem is that the maps are far too large and open. Unless you are staring at a guide with names on it, 90% of the time is spent going back and forth in rows and columns like you're mowing the lawn searching for something that isn't a gibberling pack... Not wanting to spend the majority of your time walking around aimlessly in circles killing trash mobs isn't ADHD, it's called not being retarded.

No, you're exaggerating to a comical extent and just proving that you want an on the rails, cinematic experience with hand holding:

Maybe this picture from another genre will help you understand. BG1 is on the left and has some actual exploration. Now I'm not saying that BG2 is on the right, itäs not, as there's still some exploration left aside and some of the maps even have a few, minimal, empty spots, but bye and large Bioware designed BG2 maps so that

A) you cannot get lost
B) you cannot miss anything
C) you constantly encounter something

Are you seriously claiming that RPGs get better if you remove exploration? Because it seems to me that you are. Which is why I called it the "ADHD" experience. You used Underdark as one example and it's a great map where you literally stumble into an encounter every other step - every corner and room of the map has an eouncter of some kind, not counting the random ons. You know what I was expecting to encounter in the Underdark? The actual Underdark: miles and miles of corridors with few but dangerous monsters - something like the mines from BG1 but on steroids.

Dumbest post of the week

 

[pippin]

Maybe this picture from another genre will help you understand. BG1 is on the left and has some actual exploration. Now I'm not saying that BG2 is on the right, itäs not, as there's still some exploration left aside and some of the maps even have a few, minimal, empty spots, but bye and large Bioware designed BG2 maps so that

A) you cannot get lost
B) you cannot miss anything
C) you constantly encounter something

You could make a case about this being the earliest instance of the Awesome Button, even though it had a real practical use instead of being there just to show flashy animations.
I think the only real difference between BG1 and 2 in terms of exploration was the possibility to skip the plot. But most of BG1 was open fields, and the dungeons were a real pain in the ass to navigate sometimes, like Firewine, not because it's a maze but due to the awfully bad pathfinding. BG2 "suffers" because the plot unlocks locations you can't visit again. I don't think this is a real problem because BG2's encounters feel more relevant to me.
Anyway, I don't think I would talk about BG in general if I wanted to make a point about exploration in RPGs, though.

 

[Excidium II]

Anyway, I don't think I would talk about BG in general if I wanted to make a point about exploration in RPGs, though.

Nah, fuck you. BG1 exploration is amazing

 

[Goblino]

I don't think I would talk about BG in general if I wanted to make a point about exploration in RPGs, though.

This pretty much sums up that topic. The exploration wasn't great, but it was one of the areas I kinda enjoyed. The maps sucked on an individual basis, but finding places with stuff was the sweet part. BG's biggest flaws are the combat system, and the obnoxious voice acting. You can really feel that the actors crossed th line from being funny to just hamming it up cause they didnt care about the product. Like I said before, if the entire look and sound of BG was different, I'd overlook the shite combat system. I'd probably by an IE game that was full on grimdark cyberpunk. Not shadowrun, but something classy and with a stealth system thats useful from the beginning of the game.

 

[Athelas]

the obnoxious voice acting. You can really feel that the actors crossed th line from being funny to just hamming it up cause they didnt care about the product.

I'm pretty sure they were directed to sound like that. Bioware and Black Isle shared a lot of voice actors and they sound significantly better in games made by the latter.

 

[Goblino]

Regardless, the voices are jarring and sound unprofessional. I'm not so much worried about whose fault it is, but it's a huge flaw in the game.