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Let's Party Like It's 2015: Josh Sawyer Balance Discussion

Kem0sabe

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My point is, that rpg combat is mostly unbalanced, highly exploitable and not a factor for enjoying the game or not... Because 99% of rpgs have unbalanced combat.

I'n Roguey's signature you can find a quote by a great man that is a perfect response:

(regarding crpg rulesets) "Pretty much all games get it wrong."
"Honestly, I think it's really sad that RPGs essentially get a pass on having fundamentally junk core gameplay. And yes, I do consider combat to be a core gameplay element of most RPGs."

The fact that most RPG's have unbalanced junk gameplay isn't a secret, but that doesn't mean it is okay or that we should accept that. At least there is one developer who stands in our corner and is trying to do things right. All the other RPG developers are just in it for "fun", or money (or both).

What was the last crpg you played that was truly balanced and challenging?

POE on the higher difficulties is both balanced and challenging. Very, very, very few people have managed to grab the ultimate achievement for it.

Po_E.png



Not that hard, with my expansion playthrough last month. Its basically the throw the kitchen sink at the player approach to difficulty, instead of actually having game mechanics plus player abilities being determining factors in establishing difficulty.
 
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Popiel

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Managed to do it on my first try on PotD. Thanks Eder for being nigh unkillable, Kana for having an endless supply of healing magic and my Cipher for having an endless supply of unblockable Raw damage. :smug:
I did it on my first run on PotD as well, yet it took me many tries. I should have taken a Cipher, truth be told.
 

Lambach

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I did it on my first run on PotD as well, yet it took me many tries. I should have taken a Cipher, truth be told.

I panicked a little when 3 of my party members took a dirt nap 30-40 seconds after the start of the battle, but luckily they unleashed enough destructive power to kill everything other than the Dragons in that time span. After that, it was just spank-and-tank with Eder chugging potions, Kana healing him and shooting at the dragons and my Cipher using Disintegrate as often as possible with sneakily stabbing the dragons in the asshole with Blade of Endless Depths every so often to restore Focus.

All in all, not that great of an encounter. Llengrath herself was weak as fuck.
 

Popiel

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I know that it takes literally minutes to do with a right team, yet I went with what I feel was an unoptimized one (and I'm even more sure of that now). Encounter in itself was purely very hard, not engaging in any other way.
 
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I think someone also did it with a Wizard, but yeah... that achievement is like the CRPG equivalent of climbing Mt. Everest without the help of Sherpas. Only the bravest and most hardcore would even attempt such a thing.
As a wizard? Sounds impossible. The Ultimate is just insanely hard, I think there are literally a handful of people with it. Moreso, I don't believe any of these folks did it genuinely, that is that they didn't save-scum.

It's on the tube.

Edit: Wow. Every thread on the Codex really does eventually turn into a thread about PoE/Josh Sawyer.
 
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Roguey

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You know Nu Borement has failed when it's been a week after release and the thread is already getting derailed with Pillars chat.

I don't believe any of these folks did it genuinely, that is that they didn't save-scum.

The trick to completing iron man runs is to have a concurrent non-iron man run save where you make the same decisions and go through the battles over and over again until you can complete them reliably.
 

Popiel

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The trick to completing iron man runs is to have a concurrent non-iron man run save where you make the same decisions and go through the battles over and over again until you can complete them reliably.
And then you screw up by sheer bad luck in ironmode. It surely is a trick to doing it, but not completely reliable one.
 
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vivec

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Managed to do it on my first try on PotD. Thanks Eder for being nigh unkillable, Kana for having an endless supply of healing magic and my Cipher for having an endless supply of unblockable Raw damage. :smug:
I did it on my first run on PotD as well, yet it took me many tries. I should have taken a Cipher, truth be told.
Cipher is effing broken. The most powerful character class there is. Especially with whispers of treason. That's a clean game changer. Just target the boss and sit back, relax as he slaughters his own minions for you and thy him.
 

Lacrymas

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Cipher is effing broken. The most powerful character class there is. Especially with whispers of treason. That's a clean game changer. Just target the boss and sit back, relax as he slaughters his own minions for you and thy him.

It's funny how the classes added later from stretch goals are both broken as fuck. Cipher and Chanter that is.
 
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Lurker King

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What you're saying is funny, because that's EXACTLY what the "mainstream" thinks of CRPGs, and everything associated with them - including this very site, and everyone on it. So the words you are using to insult him should really be considered a compliment, because he's just like everyone else here.

Retard. What Sawyer did with PoE is dumbing down a plagiarize D&D system in order to neutralize any incentives to master the combat system, and catering to the lowest common denominator in order to prevent any form of frustration. Anyone who is not living in the fucking moon will notice that Obsidian is a popamole studio releasing popamole isometric games.

I won't put balance before fun in a video game.

What Sawyer means by “balance” is dumbing down systems and handholding. What must people here interpret as “balance” after Sawyer, is lack of imagination and mediocrity. What "balance" really means is adjustments to ensure that the game is challenging enough, which is essential to good gaming.

In Josh's design any build may be viable, but that doesn't mean every build is optimal.

If any build is viable, character building is meaningless.
 
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Lacrymas

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If any build is viable, character building is meaningless.

While I've always defended Josh's obsession with balance, I've done it from the point of view of roleplaying (logical roleplaying anyway). If I wanted to play a paladin tank then I should be able to. Or a shapeshifting druid. Or whatever. I'm on two minds about ...unorthodox builds like tank wizards. They didn't achieve this though, at least when I finished it for the first and last time. I tried to make a melee priest, who uses heavy armor, but the recovery times were too long and spellcasting was simply way more powerful. Making literally any build viable from a mathematical standpoint does indeed make character building meaningless though.
 

Prime Junta

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Making literally any build viable from a mathematical standpoint does indeed make character building meaningless.

Only if build variety doesn't result in variety in gameplay. Which is kind of the point of build variety as far as I'm concerned.
 

Lacrymas

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Only if build variety doesn't result in variety in gameplay. Which is kind of the point of build variety as far as I'm concerned.

I question the point of having stats if anything you do is automatically viable. Just differentiate the classes with flavor, giving them access to feats to do what you want (dps paladin, tank paladin, archer paladin etc.) and be done with it.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The idea that the only point of character building in an RPG is the challenge of finding out how to create a character who can finish the game is analogous to the idea that the only point to life is eating, sleeping and surviving to the next day.
 
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Lurker King

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If any build is viable, character building is meaningless.

While I've always defended Josh's obsession with balance, I've done it from the point of view of roleplaying (logical roleplaying anyway). If I wanted to play a paladin tank then I should be able to.

"If I wanted to drive with my foot and blindfolded, I should be able to do so, because that’s my choice".

That is irrelevant to the point, and the point is this: stats and skills represent your abilities and limitations in a role-playing game. They are the way of a system telling you “Hey, you can do this, but if you choose this build, you are fucked, because the laws of this world are such and such”. So, while you should be able to role-play as muscled wizard, it is idiotic to pretend that this can be a viable build. The logical consequence of this bad design choice is that you need to bend the character system to maintain this whim. How do you do it? You invent a gamey stat that can represent both the player's physical and spiritual strength, which doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s the price you have to pay in order to make any build viable. You make a character building that is bland and doesn’t impose any meaningful restrictions. In PoE you can disarm traps as a thief, throw spells like a wizard, use an armor like a warrior, jump like an athlete, etc. It’s popamole game design where you can role-play as anything, because the game world is designed around your ego and whims. The character building is mostly cosmetic.
 

Lacrymas

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"If I wanted to drive with my foot and blindfolded, I should be able to do so, because that’s my choice".

That is irrelevant to the point, and the point is this: stats and skills represent your abilities and limitations in a role-playing game. They are the way of a system telling you “Hey, you can do this, but if you choose this build, you are fucked, because the laws of this world are such and such”. So, while you should be able to role-play as muscled wizard, it is idiotic to pretend that this can be a viable build. The logical consequence of this bad design choice is that you need to bend the character system to maintain this whim. How do you do it? You invent a gamey stat that can represent both the player's physical and spiritual strength, which doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s the price you have to pay in order to make any build viable. You make a character building that is bland and doesn’t impose any meaningful restrictions. In PoE you can disarm traps as a thief, throw spells like a wizard, use an armor like a warrior, jump like an athlete, etc. It’s popamole game design where you can role-play as anything, because the game world is designed around your ego and whims. The character building is mostly cosmetic.

That is what I meant by "logical roleplaying". A priest shouldn't be able to disarm traps and such. Otherwise the classes themselves are pointless. But paladin tanks or shapeshifting druids should be viable (in BG1 shapeshifting druids aren't viable for example). The possibilities should be informed by the lore around the class. But, like I said, they didn't manage to make all builds viable in PoE anyway. They could *do* everything, but not be good at it.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
they didn't manage to make all builds viable in PoE anyway. They could *do* everything, but not be good at it

But that's more or less what "viable" means -- being able to do anything. Viable != excelling at.
 
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Lurker King

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That is what I meant by "logical roleplaying". A priest shouldn't be able to disarm traps and such. Otherwise character building itself is pointless.

Fixed.

But, like I said, they didn't manage to make all builds viable in PoE anyway. They could *do* everything, but not be good at it.

You mean that they didn't manage to make all builds optimal.
 

Chris Avelltwo

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You know Nu Borement has failed when it's been a week after release and the thread is already getting derailed with Pillars chat.

So much for "fun" being better than balance, eh? Colin McComb and his team threw balance out the window in favor of "fun" and look where it got them - a game, that is hardly even a game at all.

Not only that, but remember POE had a -60% off sale suspiciously timed with the release of Torment, and didn't POE actually outsell it for that week as a result? No matter how you look at it, that was pretty embarrassing for Torment. It is also a vindication for POE that it still sells so well. Everyone here seems to love to talk shit about Josh Sawyer because they think that's the cool thing to do, but deep down they know he was right - they just don't want to admit it - not even to themselves.

The bottom line: Pillars is clearly the superior game. It has 89% positive rating on steam compared to Torment's 69%. Also, Pillars successfully crowdfunded a sequel with nearly $5 million that surpassed the amount raised by the first one. Will Torment be able to do that? I don't think so. Only truly great CRPGs get sequels, and we all know who makes those.

:balance:
 
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vivec

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Popiel

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Moreso, it's quite superior to Numashitera. Not the biggest of feats, but hey, credit where credit is due.
 

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