yeah... I just can't stress enough how primitive, boring, and lifeless Persona 4's dungeons and combat mechanics are.
There's absolutely no incentive to actually explore outside of a few levels in which you need keys and other trinkets to progress. The dungeons, while randomly generated are nothing special complex or unique - they're just rooms connected to corridors which are usually connected to more rooms; there's nothing interesting apart from the occasional chest (with relatively boring random loot) and the occasional shadow to fight and level up against.
The best method for dealing with Persona 4's dungeons is just to make a beeline straight for the stairs, which just goes against how I naturally explore dungeons.
Outside of a few (literally, only a few) handmade levels, there are no puzzles, no traps, no gimmicks, no tricks, no surprises, just no-thrills corridors and rooms with some loot.
As for the few handmade levels which do occasionally feature some sort of puzzle, they are almost insultingly trivial and the gimmicks (eg, in one level you get teleported back to the start if you fight a shadow) are relatively inconsequential. Nearly all of them are dispelled when you clear the level or beat the Boss - The one exception are the floor traps in one level which rotate both you and the camera.
And combat mechanics...
Outside of boss fights there isn't much depth to them at all. It essentially boils down to a very mundane and robotic process...
- probe for weakness
- exploit
- use all-out-attack
- if there are survivors go to 2
There, every single 'random' encounter in the game, summarised in 4 easy steps - add 2 more for healing when injured and taking a respite when low on SP.
Worst possible case scenario, your probes reflect back onto you... and you take no damage due to having a NUL for that affinity.
The bosses have a lot of HP and generally no weaknesses, so they benefit from not being subject to such cheese, and as such require some actual skill and planning to take down, even though most of them up to now haven't been particularly difficult (the Contrarian King aside - I blame lack of Tarakunda/Rakukaja).
Then there's SMT:Nocturne, released several years before Persona 4. And it's better in pretty much every regard as far as mechanics go. The only thing I think P4 has above Nocturne is the ability to spend a turn to "guard."
So I really have to ask, what the hell happened!?
Here is Nocturne and it has absolutely fantastic dungeon crawling and combat and then here is Persona 4 in which these aspects evaluate to serviceable at best.
Heck, Nocturne even has faster load times (which is kind of countered by a much higher encounter rate) and plays music in a manner I find much more favourable to Persona 4's method - it probably helps there is more than one theme for regular combat too and no victory fanfare. You'll actually notice that the music from the previous encounter will continue playing if you get another encounter shortly afterwards, which is actually a very nice touch.
I've heard the first 10 seconds of Persona 4's combat theme (~I hold out, I stand out, I reach out to the truth and now I'm still in pursuit, as the whole world drives away~) more times than I care to count and I'm absolutely sick of it, it probably would've helped if I didn't have to hear the first 10 seconds every time, there were more of them, and if it didn't clash so horribly with the dungeon's theme.
Dungeon Crawling wise - actual mechanics.
Nocturne's areas are split up into many smaller areas, in contrast to P4 which is effectively a large open level. The nicest thing I have to say about P4's dungeons is that they are visually appealing; Nocturne's is too
Nocturne's levels are large, mazelike, relatively complex with many hidden areas, traps and surprises and actual puzzles that will frustrate you for hours.
![[IMG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23891252/gsdx_20120821183927.jpg)
I probably spent about 2 hours to try and piece this one together and I'm not ashamed to admit that.
Some of the dungeons in fact even make abundant use of the vertical, The Labyrinth of Amala is a good example of this, it features a great many hidden areas, some of which require you to succumb to traps to get to. There is also a large 150 floor obelisk, you'll visit about 60 of its levels, and they're all relatively small, it's rather confusing to navigate via the minimap once you're explored a sizeable chunk of it.
The level design is really good too, the areas are visually appealing, unique, and actually drive you to explore them and find all its secrets. There are demons you can talk to, unique and powerful treasures to find, traps to mark off on your map.
One floor of the Labyrinth of Amala is far more unique and complex than all of Persona 4's dungeons combined!
![[IMG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23891252/gsdx_20120823182105.jpg)
You just don't get level design like this anymore, maze like layout, one way walls and doors (not shown), exits with no means of return. And there is a real risk you may actually die before you find a way out.
Combat wise, Nocturne uses a "press turn" system, which is much, much better than Persona's system, in part because it discourages stupidity and encourages strategy and planning - you're going to die very early if you can't manage that.
I''ll describe it briefly....
You are given a full turn for every active member in your party - usually up to 4 at the start of your team's turn. You use one for every attack, spell or ability you use. You may pass to turn one of these turns into a half-press turn.
If you successfully exploit an enemy's weakness or land a critical hit, a full-press is turned into a half-press, assuming you have any left. Attacks and skills will use a half-press if available instead of using a full-press.
Also, missing, or using attacks that are infective (read: void, repel, absorb) will cost you press turns. Suffering a repel will effectively cost you all your press turns, the others will cause an action to cost two turns. They do add up though, eg a miss and an absorb from a multi-target attack will cost I think 3 press turns.
This system is much saner and more tactical than P4's, for starters it gives your healers and support guys a chance to act a second time every round. Getting that second mediarama, or that Sukukaja may just be what saves you from annihilation in the next round.
Unlike Persona 4, which uses "1more" whenever you get a critical strike or exploit a weak point, which effectively allows you to strike repeatedly until you've knocked everyone down in preparation for an all out attack, which effectively reduces random encounters to the point of banality.
Sides, you have far more influence over your character's development and that of your party than you do in Persona 4. In P4, your influence basically boils down to which skills everyone keeps and whether or not they unlock their true Personae (based on whether or not you max out their respective Social Links).
In Nocturne, you get to pick your stat allocations and skill progression, and this matter since they will massively affect how you'll approach the game after you've cleared the Shinjuku Medical Faclity.
Then there are your allies; demons, gods, fiends, and mystical beasts. You literally get to dominate their available skills (and they occasionally even change and mutate randomly) and who they are tailored to combat.
Your allies also level up much slower than you, and not to mention have a very limited selection of skills (akin to the protagonist's Personae), this basically encourages you to make constant use of the fusion facilities to better your companions. Created a naga? weak to fire? fuse it with something that has void-fire and viola, it's now immune to fire attacks! This is in stark contrast to P4 in which the fusion system is kind of just there to facilitate Margaret's Social Link.
Hell, I'd be willing to bet that in 10 hours of Nocturne, I've used fusions far more than I have in 140 odd hours of Persona 4 (that's what the game clock says, save states have probably fucked with it).
![[IMG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23891252/gsdx_20120821151222.jpg)
The presence of "Sexy Gaze" never fails to crack me up.
Also worth mentioning is this whole other dynamic that takes place during combat. Demons will randomly ask you questions, or for items, they'll typically reward you with money or ask to join your party (typically as fusion fodder).
You can talk to them too, recruit them, trade with them, even beat the crap out of them. Some of them will even offer to pay you in some way to let them live.
I'm well aware that this doesn't fit in at all with Persona 4, but this is something that actually adds massively to Nocturne.
![[IMG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23891252/gsdx_20120818122541.jpg)
AI wise, they're both too fucking stupid to live, even on the "hard" difficulty. They've done so many dumb things I could only respond to with laughter.
Enemy Naga targets my Naga with zio - why would you do that! You both absorb electricity!
A Boss keep using force attacks against one of my guys that repels force and he takes a lot of damage as a result.
Random critters heal only themselves with media(rama) when they will be eradicated in the next turn regardless.
There is even this majestic boss fight against Mara the magnificent (spoilers ahoy).
And this ends this rant, turned comparison, turned semi-review, turned wall of text.
