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Location - Mountain Pass

Sovy Kurosei

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
1,535
Alright. ;)

Another reason why a guardtower made with planks would make better sense than one made with logs is that there are few trees in the surroundings to make good logs from. Trees on a mountain side are gnarly, sick looking things that aren't much use besides being firewood. So lumber would need to be imported from somewhere to build and maintain the guard towers. So why would you import big, heavy logs when you can import lighter and possibly treated lumber?

I don't think there would be much point to making a combat sturdy structure. It is a bad idea to bring siege equipment through a tight mountain pass. The biggest worry would be an attack by fire.

I'm not a Roman History major or have a degree in civil engineering so what do I don't know what people back then might have done but if I was writing about guard towers in a mountain pass and wether they should be made from logs or lumber then the reasons I gave above are pretty sound to me.
 

denizsi

Arcane
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9,927
Location
bosphorus
I find the the logic of triangular-ish outward columns on the walls questionable. I think there might be real life examples of that kind of architectural elements built "outward", but still, I can't imagine it as supporting the main wall for a such a strategic point as they are quite vulnerable to enemy attack on the outside. They do give a reinforced feeling to the structure from outside, but tactically, it might make attackers' job easier, letting them to hide/group and move forth and back between those outward columns, making it harder for the guys on the top to defence the wall and attack the others below.
 

Claw

Erudite
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3,777
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The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
denizsi said:
I find the the logic of triangular-ish outward columns on the walls questionable. (...) They do give a reinforced feeling to the structure from outside, but tactically, it might make attackers' job easier, letting them to hide/group and move forth and back between those outward columns, making it harder for the guys on the top to defence the wall and attack the others below.
Actually, I believe they do the opposite. The battlement is protruding, so without these separators, enemies could move along the wall where defenders would have a hard time targetting them.
 

denizsi

Arcane
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bosphorus
The problem with that is that the catwalk on top of the wall is also slightly outward and the walls are thick enough to make it a blind spot between the separators on ground level when you're up there due to that, so if enemy hides between them, you won't be able to see them just by looking down and in fact, you'll be taking a risk doing so and if the enemy. One nice solution to this might be another architectural defense element: defense holes on the floor level of the catwalk you can drop heavy cannon balls or pour down hot oil through, onto the enemies.

fed911c8ba.jpg


By the way, has anyone else caught the irregular placement of these separator columns? It's doesn't look right to me.

32844955ed.jpg
 

Claw

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denizsi said:
The problem with that is that the catwalk on top of the wall is also slightly outward
That's what I just said, except I didn't call it a catwalk.

and the walls are thick enough to make it a blind spot between the separators on ground level when you're up there due to that, so if enemy hides between them, you won't be able to see them just by looking down and in fact, you'll be taking a risk doing so and if the enemy.
That has nothing to do with the seperators. Even without them there'd be a blind spot unless there were protrusions from where defenders could cover the wall itself.

One nice solution to this might be another architectural defense element: defense holes on the floor level of the catwalk you can drop heavy cannon balls or pour down hot oil through, onto the enemies.
Yes it would. I don't think the wall has to be perfect, though. Medieval walls weren't perfect for a long time, having exactly that kind of blind spot.

By the way, has anyone else caught the irregular placement of these separator columns? It's doesn't look right to me.
No, I haven't. I gotta say the lack of a fourth seperator and the resulting empty stretch of wall on the right side concerns me more than the alignment with the parapet.
 

denizsi

Arcane
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bosphorus
That has nothing to do with the seperators. Even without them there'd be a blind spot unless there were protrusions from where defenders could cover the wall itself.

I meant that the problem in your previous argument, of separators making it easier to defend, is that the outward catwalk negates the advantage of defense the separators might provide, not that I found an inherent problem with separators other than what I said prior to your related suggestion.

Medieval walls weren't perfect for a long time, having exactly that kind of blind spot.

I wouldn't say that. It differs a lot in respect to geography and culture. In some places, tactical advantages of certain architectural elements were realized a lot sooner than others. There are fortress walls built in around the same periods where one sports straight walls with inward adjacent towers while another sports outward towers which gives a superior defense ability by making the enemy outside the wall subject to attack from behind, from these towers. There are even samples of superior tactical architecture dated to 3000 BC. than many early medieval structures.

I gotta say the lack of a fourth seperator and the resulting empty stretch of wall on the right side concerns me more than the alignment with the parapet.

I'm equally concerned on both.
 

Claw

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denizsi said:
I meant that the problem in your previous argument, of separators making it easier to defend, is that the outward catwalk negates the advantage of defense the separators might provide, not that I found an inherent problem with separators other than what I said prior to your related suggestion.
The protruding battlement negates the advantage of the seperators, the seperators mitigate the disadvantage of the protruding battlement. Same difference to me.

Of course, I don't really know the actual intention behind these things. I never claimed that they were designed specifically for that purpose, maybe they are also for support. My initial argument was a counterargument against your claim that these columns provide cover for attackers (because it's a blind spot already. That means you already have all the cover you need). So yeah, you could improve the wall. You could implement loopholes and machicolations to cover the blind spot. I don't care to debate this.

It differs a lot in respect to geography and culture. In some places, tactical advantages of certain architectural elements were realized a lot sooner than others.
In other words, there is no reason to assume that every fortification was perfect, which was my point in the first place. I didn't mean to suggest that everyone built exactly the same kind of fortification at the same time. That's just silly.

I'm equally concerned on both.
I'm sure VD appreciates someone paying attention. Keep up the good work.
 

callehe

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
459
Location
Gothic Castle
One question: which side does the walls defend? Shouldn't it defend the south side? (since the "civilized" town is on that side) On the world map though the vulnerable parts are on the north side which would indicate that the enemy is to the south, which is kind of weird.
 

denizsi

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
9,927
Location
bosphorus
In other words, there is no reason to assume that every fortification was perfect, which was my point in the first place. I didn't mean to suggest that everyone built exactly the same kind of fortification at the same time. That's just silly.

Indeed. I also noticed I misunderstood a few things you said due to different choice of words. Anyway, I'm ready to drop this debate as well, unless VD gives some input on the design, showing he whether cares or not so we may have a context.

One question: which side does the walls defend? Shouldn't it defend the south side? (since the "civilized" town is on that side) On the world map though the vulnerable parts are on the north side which would indicate that the enemy is to the south, which is kind of weird.

Not at all. As far as I've read, the town to the south depicted on the map is not a strict imperial post but a town inhabited, and practically controlled by many factions, so anyone could be roaming the lands to the south, out of the town. Important question would be what lies behind the pass ( I read barbarian hordes, but can not tell if that's all there is ) and why it's so important to imperials to control who goes in and out. I imagine that you might be spoiled learning the answer before playing.
 

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