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KickStarter Mage's Initiation - A Classic Sierra-style Adventure/RPG

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
Bascially, there are two option here (if the accident did happen): either she's legally incompetent, and then she shouldn't have had internet access in the first place; or she's legally competent and then I'm pretty sure it's illegal for him to disclose such information.

Eh, huh? You don't deny people internet access just because they have mental problems (pretty much any online forum can attest to that). You can institutionalize people if you can show the courts that they're a serious danger to themselves or others, but "they've become paranoid and think that everyone is scamming them" doesn't nearly reach that level.

There are a few scenarios:

1. She's telling the truth. The mages initiation people decided to spend more on two artists alone than their entire KS budget (keep in mind that their original goal only had 54% of KS money going to development because of fees, reward fulfillment and marketing). They listed multiple artists and animators on their page (4 artist and 4 animators), and didn't list the sister (only the brother). If this is what they're paying artists, then you're looking at over a million dollars on artists and animators alone for a KS with a goal of $65,000. And looking at her numbers, what was the agreement? "We'll give you 5% upfront, 95% upon completion"?

With such a large team it should also be easy to see if they're screwing over people or not (we'd probably hear from the other animators/artists if they were).

2. Her brother took the money. Not really sure how this is supposed to have happened - he tells the MI guys that instead of sending his sister the check for $38,000, send it to him instead because...? And when his sister doesn't get the money, she doesn't bother asking the MI guys if they sent it and just goes on the KS comments page instead? This one doesn't make any sense.

3. The brother is telling the truth. The MI guys were spending a reasonable amount on art given their budget, so you have the background artist (the brother) getting $10,000 and not $125,000, and an outside art contractor getting $2,000 not $40,000 (when they already have 4 other artists on the team). The sister suffered a head injury that drastically changed her personality (which happens sometimes), and became convinced MI guys were ripping her off. She goes on the comment section to tell people, and her brother comes on to explain to people why she's saying these things.

Scenario #3 seems reasonable, the others don't make sense.
 

V_K

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Eh, huh? You don't deny people internet access just because they have mental problems (pretty much any online forum can attest to that). You can institutionalize people if you can show the courts that they're a serious danger to themselves or others, but "they've become paranoid and think that everyone is scamming them" doesn't nearly reach that level.
I wasn't talking about mental problems, I was talking about legal incompetence. If you're too lazy to google, that's when you're legally declared mentally unfit to stand trial, make contracts and, basically, make any important decisions about your life.
I'm not saying the devs didn't pay her, it seems rather like another "BT remastered" situation, I'm saying that posting someone's medical information on a public site is not what a responsible person would do.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
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Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
What is most troubling to me is actually not that brother's saying that she had a brain injury -- probably better not to disclose such things but the explanation for doing so offered above isn't unreasonable.

What I have a hard time fathoming is the following sequence of events:

(1) Sister suffers a traumatic brain injury causing paranoia and delusions.
(2) Sister posts something critical about a game siblings worked on.
(3) Brother writes: "Emily, this is embarrassing ... Please stop disgracing yourself with this behavior." I just don't understand why you'd say that about your brain-damaged sister (not to her, public forum posts are not a way of talking to someone -- that's what a phone or email or face-to-face conversation is for) given that the whole premise of what follows is that she's organically incapable of stopping herself.
(4) Sister posts more bad stuff.
(5) Brother says she should be civilly liable for her posts because (a) they are in breach of "a non-disclosure agreement, to which discussing details of private business is off-limits" and (b) she is slandering Himalaya Studios.

Assuming that what he's saying is true, the family must be going through tremendously difficult times. Given the stress he's under, his actions may be perfectly understandable and even unavoidable (just as hers are, if she's in fact suffering from organic brain damage), but I don't think people should be saying that his posts are model behavior we should aspire to as opposed to human frailty to which we'd fall if put under the same stresses.

I also assume that her claim that they're owed money is based on having been told there would be X amount of work (<1 year of development time) for $Y, only to discover that in fact there was n*X amount of work (>4 years of development time) still for $Y.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,076
Dammit. I had forgotten about this completely and now all this crazy stuff... Oh well. At least something is stirring.
 
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Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
917
It's weird that controversy and shady shit seems to follow projects both by the late Sierra themselves, and the groups attempting to follow in their footsteps.
 

Aenra

Guest
Just got myself up to date :negative:

Noticed the Kickstarter comments have all been removed, so am taking your posts word for it.
- But whatever the truth is, i'd NEVER, EVER talk about my sister like that in public. That young man needs some good ole slapping. Belts do wonders too. Don't they fucking teach them anything these days?
- If it is true, i hope she gets better. The rest when it's time.
 

Fizzii

Crystal Shard
Developer
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
185
Yes, he didn't use his words well at all when he first addressed her about it. People sometimes say things which aren't always appropriate. Whatever is the case, I'm glad Kickstarter removed the comments, because it really doesn't involve the public.

I will also put this out there - I don't think anyone has been talking about it except here, and if it hadn't been mentioned in the first place, I don't think most people would be any the wiser. And while I hate confrontation, Bt, I don't think you should've mentioned it here (in part, I feel guilty about telling you about it in the first place, but I only did so because we both know JP and Em, and I certainly didn't expect you to go kicking up the dust further and getting word spread around about it for all and sundry to start casting judgements on). I know publicity is publicity, and that's what you first answered when I privately questioned you about it, but given how there are now so many posts about a rather private matter, I don't think it is something that should have been further shared around to begin with.
 
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DeepOcean

Arcane
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Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,393
Bascially, there are two option here (if the accident did happen): either she's legally incompetent, and then she shouldn't have had internet access in the first place; or she's legally competent and then I'm pretty sure it's illegal for him to disclose such information.
You are talking on extremes, mental health diseases are actually a continuum. There are plenty of mental health diseases that don't lead to complete disability and be legally incompetent but still can affect people on major ways. I can easily see an scenario where he tried to convince her to not say this on the internet, he saw this could damage the reputation of the developers and then tried to fix it up. If he just said to people to not pay attention to her, he would imply she is a liar what is worse than to be a sorta of crazy person. People tend to be really nasty with people they see as liars.

Anyway, he could use some PR speak and not to be this direct but I dunno how things are happening on the guy's life.
 
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Boleskine

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Sep 12, 2013
Messages
4,045
If my copying the comments here caused anyone involved distress I apologize. After I checked the KS page I was honestly confused and wondered if anybody knew what was going on (or if there was a serious underlying issue on Mage's Initiation). It would have been better to give a heads up to Fizzii via PM or just leave the matter alone. If it helps I deleted my post.
 
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Fizzii

Crystal Shard
Developer
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
185
Thanks Boleskine. And you wouldn't have known to talk to me about it in the first place by the way. I just feel we should let them have their privacy on what is a private matter, and everyone getting on their moral high horse about it just serves to drag their names through mud. Which I don't think is deserved, regardless of what we have seen.

Artists are rarely involved with game development come beta testing stage (which Mage's Initiation has been in for a while now). So I don't see that there is any issue that will prevent Mage's from eventually being released. Background art work would likely have wrapped up years ago.
 

V_K

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You are talking on extremes, mental health diseases are actually a continuum. There are plenty of mental health diseases that don't lead to complete disability and be legally incompetent but still can affect people on major ways. I can easily see an scenario where he tried to convince her to not say this on the internet, he saw this could damage the reputation of the developers and then tried to fix it up. If he just said to people to not pay attention to her, he would imply she is a liar what is worse than to be a sorta of crazy person. People tend to be really nasty with people they see as liars.
What I'm saying is that a legally competent person bears full responsibility over his/her actions, and thus should have full control over which private information to reveal publically. Doing so without her consent is patronizing and disrespectful at best, even if done with the best intentions.
I also have a history of mild mental illness myself (chronic GAD, occasional depressive episodes), and I know exactly how much damage having such information in the open can cause to one's employability. It doesn't even begin to compare with being called a liar on the net.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
I wasn't talking about mental problems, I was talking about legal incompetence. If you're too lazy to google, that's when you're legally declared mentally unfit to stand trial, make contracts and, basically, make any important decisions about your life.

That's an extremely serious thing to do, and the courts don't grant that on the basis of claiming you're owed more money than you are. Even in situations where a family has a good case (and this isn't one) they still often agonize about it and sometimes have trouble proving it (especially if the other side fights it). And it still wouldn't prevent her from accessing the internet, you would need to institutionalize her for that.

This is like saying, "Hey, you claimed you took away the chainsaw from your 80 year old grandfather because you thought he might hurt himself. But if you really thought he might hurt himself, you would put him in a straight-jacket and tie him to the chair."

Given the stress he's under, his actions may be perfectly understandable and even unavoidable (just as hers are, if she's in fact suffering from organic brain damage), but I don't think people should be saying that his posts are model behavior we should aspire to as opposed to human frailty to which we'd fall if put under the same stresses.

I don't think it was a good way to deal with it, and judging by the deleted comments, I think the brother realized that too. Still, it's definitely in line with what I've seen from families handling similar issues. It can be extremely hard when you're dealing with personality shifts to not blame the person for them. Just about no one I've seen has been able to do that completely. This isn't really surprising; when someone does something that hurts you, the initial reaction of most people isn't to jump to empathy and understanding.

The ability to attribute the issues to a mental issue and not a personal failing is already better than a lot of families out there.
 

V_K

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And it still wouldn't prevent her from accessing the internet, you would need to institutionalize her for that.
I don't know about the US laws specifically, but as a general rule, if you're legally incompetent, you're appointed a legal guardian, and it's that guardian's prerogative whether to let you go on the net or not.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
I don't know about the US laws specifically, but as a general rule, if you're legally incompetent, you're appointed a legal guardian, and it's that guardian's prerogative whether to let you go on the net or not.

You can't force someone to stay off the internet without physically restraining. Even if you were able to cut off their current internet and phone contracts and prevent them from getting any new ones, they could always just walk down to the local library.

But again, it's a moot point since you're talking about an extremely drastic step which the courts aren't going to approve based on someone thinking that people owe them money (and even if they would, there are good reasons why the family wouldn't pursue it).
 

V_K

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Learn to read, will ya? I'm spending a third post explaining what should have been obvious if you read my original reply instead of jumping to conclusions right away.
I'm not assuming anything about their situation. I said if (note the if) she is legally incompetent (note the exact wording, it doesn's say "had mental problems"), then (and only then) it's her guardian's repsonsibility to monitor her online behavior (not to chide her online).
And if (note the if) she isn't, then no one has the right to reveal her medical information publically without her consent (which as a legally competent person she is able to give).
Can she have mental problems and still be legally competent? Sure, but this doesn't make posting her private medical information online any more ethically acceptable. Everything else is minutiae details that are completely irrelevant to the core question.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
There are plenty of cases where someone is legally mentally competent but are exhibiting problematic behavior that family members feel the need to explain. If someone has Tourette's syndrome and a family member explains it to someone who over heard them swearing, it's not unethical. It's really not a binary situation where either the family should never tell people about their mental state or they are committed.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,393
Need this game, their remakes of the Quest for glory and king's quest games are fantastic. They took forever to release their remakes but they were top notch remakes, Kings quest 1, 2, 3 and Quest for Glory 2 in particular are really on the same level of quality as most Sierra adventure games and all this without a single dollar being charged. If the trend continue, this will be one of the few kickstarters to actually over deliver.
 

Boleskine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
4,045
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...ure/comments?cursor=18026174#comment-18026173


Himalaya Studios, Inc. Creator 2 days ago

Apologies for not checking in sooner. I share the frustration with the slow-moving nature of the project, and it really SHOULD have been released by now, but unfortunately the situation is what it is due to various factors, and this is where we find ourselves. This is the longest amount of time we've ever spent developing a single game, and also the longest amount of time we've ever had a project in the beta process. Personally, I'm disappointed at the development time, but very pleased with the quality of the project we've managed to turn out. We're down to the last handful of NPC voice recordings now (just 2 main ones to go and a handful of smaller side characters), and then we'll start recording and syncing the lines for the protagonist.

We're looking at doing another update shortly to start collecting peoples' shipping addresses and get that side of things in motion, and also to update people on the status of the voices and overall project.

With all that said, the chances of the game being released in 2017 are slim. Pending some final rounds of beta testing after all the voices are in place, we'll be aiming for first quarter 2018. That'll also give us enough time to get a marketing campaign in place, rather than rushing it out too haphazardly.
 

Siveon

Bot
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Jul 13, 2013
Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
ONLY 2 MORE MICRO-RECORDINGS LEFT UNTIL THE BEST AND GRANDEST ADVENTURE RPG HITS THE EARTH.

Couldn't help it.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...-classic-sierra-style-adventure/posts/2011131

Voices for the Voiceless

Greetings backers!

First of all, sorry for not posting a progress update sooner. We know you’re all eager to hear where development is currently at, regarding the game’s status. 2017 has largely been dedicated to a single, monotonous, time-consuming, and very repetitive task, which doesn’t make for very exciting updates, other than to say, “we’re still working on it”. At this juncture, we’re still not exactly where we’d expected to be as 2017’s draws nearer to an end -- but we’re pretty close! So, it’s time for another update.

What’s the Skinny?
We’ve been fully-invested in the voice casting and recording process for Mage’s Initiation since February 2017, which has turned out to be a colossal task. It has honestly been much more time-consuming, and a far larger project than originally expected. We’ve also had to start funding the voice acting from personal money outside of the Kickstarter project, and there have been some delays between recording sessions, as sufficient funds had to be accrued to hire each actor. Voice acting is something we didn’t fully account for during our original Kickstarter campaign, but we didn’t want to run a second one for the same project. For these reasons, voice-work and lip-syncing has been a constant, but rather frustratingly slow-moving process. Mages is also the game with the largest amount of spoken/recorded and lip-synced dialogue of any project we’ve ever developed. So, there's that factor, too!

The script has a word-count of just under 235,000, equating to approximately 520 pages. There are 37 speaking characters in the game, including the playable protagonist, D’arc. As of right now, we have 6 characters left to record and lip-sync lines for. Two of those are major NPCs who have just recently been cast and the actors are currently preparing to record their lines. Three are minor NPC characters who have only a handful of lines and are yet to be cast. And last of all is D'arc, with over 5,700 lines alone, whose recordings will be left until the very end.

After the character voices are all recorded and lip-synced, we’ll need to conduct another few rounds of beta testing, just to make sure that everything’s in working order, and so that fresher eyes can catch anything peculiar we may have missed. Then we should be off to the races and ready to start preparing for release after that. Our current projection for a release time-frame is late Q1 to early Q2 in 2018.

Survey Time
If you’re at an applicable tier, please be on the lookout for the Kickstarter surveys that we’ll be sending out shortly pertaining to your project rewards. We’re not ready to send any swag out just yet, but we just wanted to get the ball rolling well in advance, so that backers will have adequate time to complete their surveys and provide their details. This will allow us to hit the ground running when the time arrives.

We often receive private messages and e-mails from Kickstarter backers notifying us that they’ve moved. The good news is that Kickstarter now permits backers to change their shipping address - even after submitting the survey. Changes can be made all the way up until we notify backers that we’re ready to send items out. So, if you need to change your address at a later date, there’s no need to contact us directly. Simply make the change via the Kickstarter survey and it will be updated. (PayPal backers who change their shipping address after submitting the form will still need to notify us via email, however, as we're using a Google Form for that).

Back to work
We aim to have another update (as originally planned) once all the voices have been recorded, with some information about the cast of characters. Until then, we’ll keep plugging away at the last of the bunch.

Thank you to everyone for your continued patience as we ride this project out to the end.

Keep an eye out for the shipping survey in your inboxes shortly.

Sincerely,

The Himalaya Team
 

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